The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - 19th July

[Bus-Conductor]

I thought I'd read it somewhere.

 

[Snarfalicious]

Why doesn't anyone ever listen to our manager? AVB said that he would look at the squad and see where he needs to strengthen. Then we will buy some players but only after some have been moved on.

Until we see some of our fringe players being sold I doubt we will buy anyone.

That and the main holdup is going to be Modric. Between Modric and Pienaar (and maybe Defoe?) we're talking some quality cash flow.

I'm actually happy that AVB is doing it this way. He's giving all the guys a fair shot to prove their case. And, while we wait, despite missing out on some talent (Most of which we probably never realistically would have added), some of our bigger competitors for signatures might actually use up their funds.

I do hope we nail down the Lloris signature. I think him and Vertonghen can be huge for the development of a solid back for us.

 

[steve]

Good well let's get him for peanuts then....the third party stuff is a concern though...another element to hold things up...

 

[Lilbaz]

He did: (from wiki)

On 3 July 2010, Moutinho signed a five-year contract with F.C. Porto. The player fell under heavy criticism for forcing a transfer to a rival club after spending 10 years in Sporting's youth ranks, also being one of the team's star players and captain. Sporting chairman José Eduardo Bettencourt described Moutinho's conduct as deplorable: "If I had not experienced the situation, I would not believe it was possible to descend so low". Sporting awaited offers from other clubs but Moutinho forced the transfer to Porto: "We tried to get him to wait longer, so that there might be some offers from abroad, but Joao lost his temper and forced an exit to FC Porto, telling us that he had given his word to FC Porto".After this, he became a persona non grata at the club, being called a rotten apple: "The deal was done because Sporting wanted it, because it did not want a rotten apple in its orchard, and it did not want someone who was not an example, nor dignified the flag of the club."
The transfer fee was priced at €11 million, with €1 million being paid for 50% of the rights to central defender Nuno André Coelho. Additionally, Sporting would receive 25% of any added value occurring during that time frame, provided it surpassed the previous value. Soon after, Porto sold 37.5% of the player's economic rights to a third party, Mamers BV, for €4.125 million.

So if we pay say 30m. 11.25m will go to Mamers, 4.75m will go to Sporting and Porto would get 15m? Or is my maths totally out?

 

[HappySpur]

So Sporting have absolutely no incentive to sell. good find.

 

[Wellspurs]

So if we pay say 30m. 11.25m will go to Mamers, 4.75m will go to Sporting and Porto would get 15m? Or is my maths totally out?

11.25+4.75+15 = 31 maths only out by £1m

I make it approx Sporting £5m Mamers £10m and Porto £15m as Mamers didn't buy Sporting's 25%?

 

[Lilbaz]

11.25+4.75+15 = 31 maths only out by £1m

Sorry it is a bit late

 

[Lilbaz]

So Sporting have absolutely no incentive to sell. good find.

Seeing as he plays for Porto, I think Sporting would love them to sell.

You're as bad as me

 

[spud]

He did: (from wiki)
......... The transfer fee was priced at €11 million, with €1 million being paid for 50% of the rights to central defender Nuno André Coelho. Additionally, Sporting would receive 25% of any added value occurring during that time frame, provided it surpassed the previous value. Soon after, Porto sold 37.5% of the player's economic rights to a third party, Mamers BV, for €4.125 million.

So if we pay say 30m. 11.25m will go to Mamers, 4.75m will go to Sporting and Porto would get 15m? Or is my maths totally out?

I may be wrong, but the way it reads to me is that the only party other than Porto who would get any cut of our payment to Porto would be Sporting, who would get 25% of any profit. I read the 'economic rights' as being a separate issue.

So if we paid (for example) €30m, then Porto would keep €25.25m with the other €4.75m (25% of €19m profit) being passed on to Sporting.

 

[Spursidol]

So Porto have no incentive to sell as they sold on 37.5% at the same price (or were financed by ) to 3rd parties at the price they bought in at.

He will stay there until he demands a move. But if he wants to come to Spurs he needs to do that now !

 

[Spursidol]

I may be wrong, but the way it reads to me is that the only party other than Porto who would get any cut of our payment to Porto would be Sporting, who would get 25% of any profit. I read the 'economic rights' as being a separate issue.

So if we paid (for example) €30m, then Porto would keep €25.25m with the other €4.75m (25% of €19m profit) being passed on to Sporting.

No, think you have missed out the 37.5% sales to Marmers BV

Edit ie
Sporting 4.75
Marmis 11.25
Porto 15.00
Total 30.00

 

[ButchCassidy]

That'd be the best situation (including signing Moutinho) imo because it'd cost quite a bit less and allowing us to spend £20-25m on other parts of the squad. However, I reckon Sahin believes in himself and believes he can win a place in the squad as injury was the reason he didn't play not a lack of ability. Although, having to overcome Modric in addition to the quality already there may sway him to move.

I heard somewhere (don't remember where though) that his refusal to go to Spurs was just to try and scuttle a Modric deal, but if it went through he would be more likely to want a move as that would just increase his competition in central midfield. Maybe he's accepted that its inevitable and wants some first team football.

 

[spud]

No, think you have missed out the 37.5% sales to Marmers BV

I assumed 'economic rights' meant 'image rights' (or similar) and was therefore a commercial arrangement involving the marketing of Moutinho that is separate from the cost of his player registration.

Does anybody definitively know what 'economic rights' means?

 

[The Watcher]

I assumed 'economic rights' meant 'image rights' (or similar) and was therefore a commercial arrangement involving the marketing of Moutinho that is separate from the cost of his player registration.

Does anybody definitively know what 'economic rights' means?

I think it's the rights to his contract that Porto sold a percentage of, i.e. they got money up front for a percentage of the next sale going to a third party, and that's why they're pushing the value up so high - to maximise their slice.
Also, I'm really not sure that percentage on Wiki is right, certainly journalist Andy Brassell (who's normally pretty decent and knowledgeable, rather than just some shit-stirring tabloid hack) said on 5Live last week that it was 15% of Moutinho's contract that Porto had sold.

 

[Spursidol]

I assumed 'economic rights' meant 'image rights' (or similar) and was therefore a commercial arrangement involving the marketing of Moutinho that is separate from the cost of his player registration.

Does anybody definitively know what 'economic rights' means?

If you look at the likes of the Tevez transfer, only one entity can own registration rights, however several people cam own a % of the 'economic rights' of which all of them adds up to 100% ownership (but only one holds the registratiion rights). Position common in South America but not Europe

 

[spud]

If you look at the likes of the Tevez transfer, only one entity can own registration rights, however several people cam own a % of the 'economic rights' of which all of them adds up to 100% ownership (but only one holds the registratiion rights). Position common in South America but not Europe

I understand that is the position regarding player registrations in England, but am unsure that it applies throughout the rest of Europe. However (and possibly because I may be misunderstanding what you say) I'm not sure that that answers my question.

However, I think that this from The Watcher does:

I think it's the rights to his contract that Porto sold a percentage of, i.e. they got money up front for a percentage of the next sale going to a third party, and that's why they're pushing the value up so high - to maximise their slice.
Also, I'm really not sure that percentage on Wiki is right, certainly journalist Andy Brassell (who's normally pretty decent and knowledgable, rather than just some shit-stirring tabloid hack) said on 5Live last week that it was 15% of Moutinho's contract that Porto had sold.

Now I get it. So that means that I had completely the wrong end of the stick.

Thanks for your help gents.

 

[HappySpur]

Seeing as he plays for Porto, I think Sporting would love them to sell.

You're as bad as me

Oh yeah. Real brain fart there.

 

[InOffMeLeftShin]

Yep. Time is on our side. If we can get Adebayor done it leaves us with two priorities - another striker (or two if Defoe is off), and a replacement for Modric. I really can't see us doing another 'Frazier' so I reckon he won't be sold until our replacement is sorted (hopefully Moutinho).

After that anything else, such as Lloris, would be a bonus.

Exactly this. In fact our squad is mostly looking good if Ade is complete. That is Ade, vertonghen, sigurdsson, fryers, lacelles done by mid July. Plus caulker and naughton back increasing our defensive cover. We don't have many pieces to add even if they are important pieces.

 

[Lilbaz]

Might even be an excuse to watch the Olympics, hopefully find a young striker that has so far gone unnoticed (e.g. cheap).

 

[Lilbaz]

Might even be an excuse to watch the Olympics, hopefully find a young striker that has so far gone unnoticed (e.g. cheap).

Also with the 75% tax rate in France I can see most of them wanting to jump ship.