The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - 31st December 2014

[SamR]

If there is genuine interest in Paulinho and we decide to keep him now that would depress me.

I know he has been shit but we'd be selling at a low stock right now. If he can show promise like he did against Chelsea more often then i think he could offer us something this season. I'd much rather we sell capoue and lennon before him.

 

[steve]

Straw clutching? I didn't "drop" Huddlestone, I mentioned that was a component of that loss of mentality and never deviated from that. In terms of footballing quality, it was never close and I never suggested it was that those players' contributions would be superior, but his loss in combination with the others certainly did lead to the problems that we had. That is an extremely aggressive paragraph that is unfounded on truth with my own quotes, and your own "conjecture" as to your reasoning that I'm seemingly down to last resort comments. Shockingly ungrounded leaps in assumptions there.

Contradicted myself with that comment? I think you've contradicted yourself by pointing out about the potential of Stambouli while also accusing me earlier of making conjecture without little evidence. And yes, I stand by my point that Livermore over the course of last season would have contributed to a more successful season than the bottoming out we faced last season. 44% of our goals conceded last season were due to OG or direct error. 44%. That reflects a massively poor indication of poor mentality, and one which I don't think would have occurred had we left some of that core in place, namely Livermore. As I said, I certainly don't think we'd have finished much higher, but I do think our midfields would have been far more balanced and we would not have fared as poorly against the bigger sides. Had we kept Livermore over Capoue, I absolutely think we would have fared better and I don't apologize for that nor think that's a desperate stance. Even a numerical analysis between the two would reinforce this, even before we get into mentality, team chemistry, etc.

But this is done. If anyone else reading this discussion falls for your lackluster assumptions and connected reasoning points in aggression, that's their own fault. I think we'll simply leave it as that we agree on on the fact that the acquisitions were unbalanced and that it led to our problems, regardless of the extent of how we feel about the departed.

Suffice to say I disagree. And those people who've agreed with my comments are just making a fair assessment of a limited player. You're over egging his mentality. From the little I've seen of Stambouli (and I've seen him live) he's got a decent mentality (thus far) and a superior skill set. His biggest problem seems to be mobility but this seems to be improving.

We should've brought in players with a stronger mentality but hindsight is a wonderful thing. But Jake Livermore who I liked was severely limited in skill set and only had an average mentality. He certainly wasn't someone who could galvanise the players around him. Decent in the tackle, limited passer, average mentality, nice bloke.

As an aside you're use of language is interesting.

I'm sorry if I caused offense. I just think Parker or Sandro yes a no brainer. Livermore? Na not for me. The bigger problem was who we brought in compounded by Parker being past it and leaving and Sandro falling apart physically.

 

[South_GA_Yid]

I wonder if paulinho doesn't want to really leave after the update just provided. Also, If there is interest in 6, I hope it 6 we can afford to lose. I believe we need a striker to spell Kane, and I like Soldado to stay personally. I think he adds more than goals and can drop deeper and play a #10 role if need be. The 6 I would ship out are Ade, Walker, Rose, Kaboul, Capoue, and Townsend. Unfortunately with a short HG list, we would need to replace with HG players. Oh well, I can dream. Thanks for whoring again Dov

 

[SamR]

I wonder if paulinho doesn't want to really leave after the update just provided. Also, If there is interest in 6, I hope it 6 we can afford to lose. I believe we need a striker to spell Kane, and I like Soldado to stay personally. I think he adds more than goals and can drop deeper and play a #10 role if need be. The 6 I would ship out are Ade, Walker, Rose, Kaboul, Capoue, and Townsend. Unfortunately with a short HG list, we would need to replace with HG players. Oh well, I can dream. Thanks for whoring again Dov

I'm surprised to see a choice of Walker and Townsend over Naughton and Lennon to leave..and Rose should stay too. I give you Ade, Capoue and Kaboul though

 

[DaSpurs]

Suffice to say I disagree. And those people who've agreed with my comments are just making a fair assessment of a limited player. You're over egging his mentality. From the little I've seen of Stambouli (and I've seen him live) he's got a decent mentality (thus far) and a superior skill set. His biggest problem seems to be mobility but this seems to be improving.

We should've brought in players with a stronger mentality but hindsight is a wonderful thing. But Jake Livermore who I liked was severely limited in skill set and only had an average mentality. He certainly wasn't someone who could galvanise the players around him. Decent in the tackle, limited passer, average mentality, nice bloke.

As an aside you're use of language is interesting.

I'm sorry if I caused offense. I just think Parker or Sandro yes a no brainer. Livermore? Na not for me. The bigger problem was who we brought in compounded by Parker being past it and leaving and Sandro falling apart physically.

If your argument is championed as "Livermore wasn't good enough, and we should have done better with the replacements," well then of course people are going to agree with you. But the argument I'm making is more rounded, and is similar to one I made at the time that summer but people disagreed with. Come six months later, as is typical per usual on here in light of strain on the side, the pendulum swung back in the opposite direction as people realized all the flair at the same time wasn't such a wise idea. But if of course you keep focusing on Livermore's footballing qualities, then what I'm trying to say is a different argument altogether.

For what it's worth, have a look here at this statistical comparison between Livermore in a shittier Hull side than our replacements that summer for him with us, and you'll note it's been equated to game averages:

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m..._created/avg_pass_length/defensive_errors#avg

You'll note the particularly interesting comparison of defensive errors.

The point is that we should have looked to make a smoother transition. We should not have gutted both our offensive presence, and our entire leadership and sense of what it meant to play for Spurs. Dawson clearly wasn't enough while playing at the exposed CB position. We should have kept Livermore, made additions where needed, and made changes later. It was far too much, far too soon. And that is the argument I'm making here, not that Livermore is a greater individual player than his replacements (even though the numbers above could be used to make that appropriate argument).

 

[Mr Pink]

If we didn't have such a bloated squad we wouldn't be in this constant vicious circle of having to shift players for 'Levy prices' to free up space. And does that come about with picking up too many Holtby types!!

 

[TheAmerican]

some bits b4 bed - sorry if posted, havent really checked

trix on coys / all credit to @TrickyVilla : no outs, no in's! Money available but wage bill is bloated already.
The way I hear it as soon as players go we will see incomings. Just a case of when we can move players on.
There is interest in 6(that I know of) we are willing to let go.
Wage bill is already OTT and the likes of Mason, Bentaleb and Kane need parity with their now squad status. Hugo, Rose and Townsend just signed improved deals and Jan has one on the table. The money has to come from somewhere even before we look at what we'd pay new signings.

hertyid: Wages really jumped the past 18 months. The new PL deal being negotiated at the moment will improve cashflow again for everyone but we could still do with shifting some deadwood. Adebayor contract expiring will help. Also I am told Paulinho may be back in the circle of trust.

How the hell does Townsend get a new contract? All I can think of is a possible national team call up clause in his contract

 

[Bulletspur]

The only players I would not mind leaving are Ade and Kaboul. The others I would happily keep, even Soldada and Capoue. I honestly believe that we have a squad that can make Top 4 and a Cup, We just need the right application in matches e.g. against Chelsea. We are set up nicely but there are going to be a number of quick fixtures so everyone will be needed. And I have said this before, there is no guarantees that any new acquisition would enable us or do better than we already have done. I am quite happy to wait until the summer..

 

[steve]

If your argument is championed as "Livermore wasn't good enough, and we should have done better with the replacements," well then of course people are going to agree with you. But the argument I'm making is more rounded, and is similar to one I made at the time that summer but people disagreed with. Come six months later, as is typical per usual on here in light of strain on the side, the pendulum swung back in the opposite direction as people realized all the flair at the same time wasn't such a wise idea. But if of course you keep focusing on Livermore's footballing qualities, then what I'm trying to say is a different argument altogether.

For what it's worth, have a look here at this statistical comparison between Livermore in a shittier Hull side than our replacements that summer for him with us, and you'll note it's been equated to game averages:

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m..._created/avg_pass_length/defensive_errors#avg

You'll note the particularly interesting comparison of defensive errors.

The point is that we should have looked to make a smoother transition. We should not have gutted both our offensive presence, and our entire leadership and sense of what it meant to play for Spurs. Dawson clearly wasn't enough while playing at the exposed CB position. We should have kept Livermore, made additions where needed, and made changes later. It was far too much, far too soon. And that is the argument I'm making here, not that Livermore is a greater individual player than his replacements (even though the numbers above could be used to make that appropriate argument).

I know what you're saying DS I just don't agree and I've made it clear that includes mentality. You can't judge a player on stats alone. You have to watch them and be able to assess their qualities. Spurs and Liverpool made this mistake with players at smaller clubs who couldn't translate their impressive stats at a bigger club (Bentley, Bent, Downing, Carroll) because they just weren't good enough. That includes in mentality.

They were at a bigger club with bigger expectations with a bigger squad and they weren't up to the standard. I can pull out stats which shows Bent's record as being excellent at Spurs but the reality was he wasn't a player we needed in any sense.

I'd be more interested to see Livermores stats while at Spurs because that is the true test. He was alright but the loan and then signing by Hull was good for him and us.

 

[npearl4spurs]

It has been said before but it needs stating after the recent ITK. We must find something else/work magic on Erisken and Kane to keep them healthy. We are woefully dependent on them right now. We would go down like the Hindenburg if they were to get injured.

 

[nightgoat]

I'm surprised to see a choice of Walker and Townsend over Naughton and Lennon to leave..and Rose should stay too. I give you Ade, Capoue and Kaboul though

Adebayor, Kaboul and Capoue should be the three we're working on getting shot of most. I'd be inclined to keep hold of Lennon as games like Everton showed how he can really contribute, and that would leave us with just Townsend for out and out pace if he were to go. But it seems there's sufficient interest to get a decent fee for him. Getting rid of Adebayor, Kaboul, Capoue and Lennon would get near £200k per week off the wage bill.

Deals like Rabiot on loan and bringing Pritchard back from Brentford would replace some of the outs without heavily impacting on wages.

 

[WiganSpur]

I think this could possibly be Aaron Lennon's last few weeks in a Spurs shirt. He hasn't been in any squads, and there's clearly interest.

 

[Antilokhos]

If there is genuine interest in Paulinho and we decide to keep him now that would depress me.

You are nuts mate. Confederations Cup Paulinho is exactly what we need. If there is any chance of that player emerging, we need it, as a club we just aren't in the position to buy players like that.

He started out fairly promising before getting hurt and then everything devolved into a chaotic mess last season. He also had no summer after being with Brazil for the World Cup. He's now come back in, seems to finally be healthy, has probably really settled into London, and if he is earning the trust of the coach, he's still young enough, and potentially good enough to keep.

That said, I wouldn't be gutted to lose him if we were able to recoup our investment, but we probably would be forced to sell low on somebody who has been quite a good player (if not quite consistently for us yet). Of course, if Poch doesn't see it, he's obviously the man who would know and we dump him for what we can get.

 

[DaSpurs]

I know what you're saying DS I just don't agree and I've made it clear that includes mentality. You can't judge a player on stats alone. You have to watch them and be able to assess their qualities. Spurs and Liverpool made this mistake with players at smaller clubs who couldn't translate their impressive stats at a bigger club (Bentley, Bent, Downing, Carroll) because they just weren't good enough. That includes in mentality.

They were at a bigger club with bigger expectations with a bigger squad and they weren't up to the standard. I can pull out stats which shows Bent's record as being excellent at Spurs but the reality was he wasn't a player we needed in any sense.

I'd be more interested to see Livermores stats while at Spurs because that is the true test. He was alright but the loan and then signing by Hull was good for him and us.

Of course you're right, you cannot judge any player on stats alone.

But was not the argument that Livermore would have been less effective? And was not your argument that Hull being near relegation despite having three of our old players indicative of their abilities? If so, how does it stand up to the numbers suggesting Livermore played better in that less effective side than his replacements, and also made less defensive errors (indicative partially of mentality)?

I don't think comparing to his stats previously with Spurs would be fair, because that's less development for a fringe player, and therefore disproportionately more relevant than say comparing between different years of an already established player. So frankly, I think the best comparison for whether or not we should have kept Livermore is to compare him in the same season vs his replacements. It just so happens that he played better with "worse" teammates, and his replacements were in sides that were continually turned over by the top sides while his "little" side was not.

 

[Spursidol]

some bits b4 bed - sorry if posted, havent really checked

trix on coys / all credit to @TrickyVilla : no outs, no in's! Money available but wage bill is bloated already.
The way I hear it as soon as players go we will see incomings. Just a case of when we can move players on.
There is interest in 6(that I know of) we are willing to let go.
Wage bill is already OTT and the likes of Mason, Bentaleb and Kane need parity with their now squad status. Hugo, Rose and Townsend just signed improved deals and Jan has one on the table. The money has to come from somewhere even before we look at what we'd pay new signings.

hertyid: Wages really jumped the past 18 months. The new PL deal being negotiated at the moment will improve cashflow again for everyone but we could still do with shifting some deadwood. Adebayor contract expiring will help. Also I am told Paulinho may be back in the circle of trust.

@TrickyVilla posted earlier today in one of the SC threads something to the effect that Poch would only be satisfied with this TW if we could get a number of outgoing players done, as without these going we could not bring players in as we were very close to our wages limit already.

So its a very consistent message

And no real wonder if you look at the size of our squad - aside from the 23 in the squad (plus BAE outside) we have 4 u21's who are doing the business in the PL - Kane, Mason, Bentaleb and Dier..... which means we are supporting a squad of closer to 30 players already

 

[yankspurs]

Alright, now my interest is piqued...

New PL deal as in TV deal? Is this with an American broadcaster, like NBC Sports? Their deal expires after next year. I pray this is the case. I love having all PL games available to me and their coverage has been outstanding. 1000 times better than the shit we had with Fox Sports and ESPN.

 

[Spursidol]

You are nuts mate. Confederations Cup Paulinho is exactly what we need. If there is any chance of that player emerging, we need it, as a club we just aren't in the position to buy players like that.

He started out fairly promising before getting hurt and then everything devolved into a chaotic mess last season. He also had no summer after being with Brazil for the World Cup. He's now come back in, seems to finally be healthy, has probably really settled into London, and if he is earning the trust of the coach, he's still young enough, and potentially good enough to keep.

That said, I wouldn't be gutted to lose him if we were able to recoup our investment, but we probably would be forced to sell low on somebody who has been quite a good player (if not quite consistently for us yet). Of course, if Poch doesn't see it, he's obviously the man who would know and we dump him for what we can get.

Mates that watch Brazil a lot tell me that the Confederations Cup was far and away the best that Paulhino ever played for Brazil.

He then played at his normal level after that.

So we bought a player on the back of his best ever performances which he's not been able to build on and he''s since sunk back.

He's not necessatily the first out of the door for me.........but at an offer of say £12m we might get a replacement who has the energy to play how Poch's teams play

 

[Spursidol]

I know what you're saying DS I just don't agree and I've made it clear that includes mentality. You can't judge a player on stats alone. You have to watch them and be able to assess their qualities. Spurs and Liverpool made this mistake with players at smaller clubs who couldn't translate their impressive stats at a bigger club (Bentley, Bent, Downing, Carroll) because they just weren't good enough. That includes in mentality.

They were at a bigger club with bigger expectations with a bigger squad and they weren't up to the standard. I can pull out stats which shows Bent's record as being excellent at Spurs but the reality was he wasn't a player we needed in any sense.

I'd be more interested to see Livermores stats while at Spurs because that is the true test. He was alright but the loan and then signing by Hull was good for him and us.

At the time it looked at a sensible deal to move Livermore on, however whilst we brought in players with better technical skills such as Capoue the new guys coming in seem not to have the same appetite and energy to play as Livermore. Result is that we don't always see the benefit of those better skills. So (crudely) of half of the games that Capoue played this season for Spurs we had a much better player than Livermore whereas in the other half.......was there any significant upgrade ? (and yes I appreciate Livermore is more of a pure DM whereas Capoue can pass forward when he chooses)

 

[DaSpurs]

You are nuts mate. Confederations Cup Paulinho is exactly what we need. If there is any chance of that player emerging, we need it, as a club we just aren't in the position to buy players like that.

He started out fairly promising before getting hurt and then everything devolved into a chaotic mess last season. He also had no summer after being with Brazil for the World Cup. He's now come back in, seems to finally be healthy, has probably really settled into London, and if he is earning the trust of the coach, he's still young enough, and potentially good enough to keep.

That said, I wouldn't be gutted to lose him if we were able to recoup our investment, but we probably would be forced to sell low on somebody who has been quite a good player (if not quite consistently for us yet). Of course, if Poch doesn't see it, he's obviously the man who would know and we dump him for what we can get.

Disagree. Even Corinthians Cup Paulinho wasn't the kind of midfielder we needed. He was good for Brazil in their system, but that does not mean he a) is suitable for the Prem or b) suitable for any system everywhere. He worked for Brazil because he maintained possession and could flip the ball to Brazil's world class widemen to move the ball vertically, while he and Gustavo remained central and very deep. He is not at all a transitional player, and this is the single most fundamental responsibility from midfield to establish Poch's system.

It would be best for all parties involved if he left sooner rather than later, especially with our tight wages.

 

[yankspurs]

I think this could possibly be Aaron Lennon's last few weeks in a Spurs shirt. He hasn't been in any squads, and there's clearly interest.

Im hoping last few hours/days so we can get a flurry of outgoings done to have time to bring in improvements to the squad