The Daily ITK Discussion Thread THE DALZIEL & PASCOE EDITION 1st July 2016

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DogsOfWar

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I'm pretty sure that will be Janssen sorted to go alongside Wanyama.

That's the essential business done so anything else is a bonus.
I think a lot depends on Son, Njie, Pritchard etc in pre-season. If they can impress we can have something coming off the bench, if not, we need to bring in a couple more as options.
 

SpartanSpur

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Janssen and Wanyama in would be a cracking start to the window. After that I wouldn't mind us trying to work on some secret squirrel deals and also waiting around for some opportunistic deals once the big boys get the market moving. There could be some rather useful players that become surplus once their clubs move on to shiny new toys.
 

GetSpurredOn

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Janssen and Wanyama in would be a cracking start to the window. After that I wouldn't mind us trying to work on some secret squirrel deals and also waiting around for some opportunistic deals once the big boys get the market moving. There could be some rather useful players that become surplus once their clubs move on to shiny new toys.
That's a very good shout.
Growing suggestions, both from ITK rumblings, and media flashes, that Janssen should we'll be onboard very very soon.
That's the two glaring holes from last year's squad addresses, no genuine out and out specialist DM or CF backup.
I still think there's room in the squad for a game changer of a player, someone who can open up a deep lying defence, someone who can get on the ball and make things happen. Yes, I know we scored a lot of goals last year, but there were key games where we really failed to break down stubborn stacked defence's.
At times we also struggled to hold leads, but Wanyama should help by strengthening our midfield presence or alternatively, Janssen could be the difference by grabbing an extra goal to kill off teams hopes. So that's one area addressed, let's look for a game changer to open up sides.
The one caveat to this is, I think initially there may be less urgency to it, based on seeing how much of an impact Pritchard, Son and Njie could have in preseason now they are all back, fit and settled. It may be they negate the need for a further addition, and we place faith in those with some of our talented younger players given a chance to be backup.
Same could be said for CB and CM in theory. Not critical positions to fill as we above adequate depth, but there are some on here who think we still need to look at our quality of depth there. But, again, worth seeing how the likes of Carter-Vickers, Ball, Winks and Onomah do in preseason first?
 

SpartanSpur

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That's a very good shout.
Growing suggestions, both from ITK rumblings, and media flashes, that Janssen should we'll be onboard very very soon.
That's the two glaring holes from last year's squad addresses, no genuine out and out specialist DM or CF backup.
I still think there's room in the squad for a game changer of a player, someone who can open up a deep lying defence, someone who can get on the ball and make things happen. Yes, I know we scored a lot of goals last year, but there were key games where we really failed to break down stubborn stacked defence's.
At times we also struggled to hold leads, but Wanyama should help by strengthening our midfield presence or alternatively, Janssen could be the difference by grabbing an extra goal to kill off teams hopes. So that's one area addressed, let's look for a game changer to open up sides.
The one caveat to this is, I think initially there may be less urgency to it, based on seeing how much of an impact Pritchard, Son and Njie could have in preseason now they are all back, fit and settled. It may be they negate the need for a further addition, and we place faith in those with some of our talented younger players given a chance to be backup.
Same could be said for CB and CM in theory. Not critical positions to fill as we above adequate depth, but there are some on here who think we still need to look at our quality of depth there. But, again, worth seeing how the likes of Carter-Vickers, Ball, Winks and Onomah do in preseason first?
Agreed, Pritchard especially looks to have the vision to pick locks, Onomah, KWP, winks and CCV will continue to mature.

Elsewhere Son has a very useful set of tools if we can get him confident and on form, and N'Jie has serious pace (although needs to improve a lot).

Bentaleb and Mason also have the opportunity to improve again.

Meanwhile we can be sitting around for another VDV like deal if it comes up, like we did last time we had CL (hopefully earlier than deadline day though!)
 
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Nice to have the obvious holes in the squad sorted early not like us. As previous posters have said we can now look for clever deals without too much concern if they don't work out as we should have a pretty complete team for next season.
 

Hercules

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Nice to have the obvious holes in the squad sorted early not like us. As previous posters have said we can now look for clever deals without too much concern if they don't work out as we should have a pretty complete team for next season.
Ditto that. Only concern would be how Poch wants his squad to be fully prepared through his intense pre season. Fitness wise that would be key and essential for any new signings. As Poch has often said, 'we have to be smart and very clever'. Sure they are further down the road on that vital player to add to our offensive play from midfield.
 

GetSpurredOn

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Meanwhile we can be sitting around for another VDV like deal if it comes up, like we did last time we had CL (hopefully earlier than deadline day though!)
Agreed, I think a fit again Bentaleb can negate that need to go looking for a Dembele alternative.
More importantly, with (hopefully) Janssen joining Wanyama, we have the two most critical gaps filled. We can wait it out for an AM to crop up who actually fits the bill, but if nobody suits what we want, then we can just crack on as we are, and still be in a stronger position than last year. Getting VW and VJ in early for a preseason to settle, could be very telling.
 

Hoopspur

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Must only be me then that refuses to believe it til it's announced....the roller coaster is nearing the top of the incline.
 

Spurger King

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Must only be me then that refuses to believe it til it's announced....the roller coaster is nearing the top of the incline.
After Willian the official site/official twitter account really is the only way to be sure.

Still...ITK provides a fun journey and a sense of what we're up to.
 

Redfap

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Agreed, Pritchard especially looks to have the vision to pick locks, Onomah, KWP, winks and CCV will continue to mature.

Elsewhere Son has a very useful set of tools if we can get him confident and on form, and N'Jie has serious pace (although needs to improve a lot).

Bentaleb and Mason also have the opportunity to improve again.

Meanwhile we can be sitting around for another VDV like deal if it comes up, like we did last time we had CL (hopefully earlier than deadline day though!)
There is so much unknown with the Premier League, the output from players can fluctuate, development can be very rapid, almost overnight, there is nothing to say that we won't find 1 or 2 players from the current squad that take their game to a new level. We can only guess on the output of Bentaleb, Son, Clinton etc.

Having said that, I'm also a fan of the VDV style opportunistic signing, I remember when we signed him we weren't exactly short of good options in attacking midfield, but IF the opportunity arises to sign a quality player that will improve the squad it should be taken.
 

Bus-Conductor

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There was me thinking we scored 69 goals, the second highest in the league.

It's just a perception, because we had so much possession, that we weren't effective at AM.
People on here have forgotten how good we were last season
Not really sure why people are getting chastised for claiming our starting XI doesnt need improving. It doesn't.

Our biggest issue last season was our lack of quality in our squad depth. Kevin Wimmer is all the proof you need that having quality squad depth makes a huge difference. Dembele's absences last season and our lack of squad depth to cover him is ultimately why we finished where we did (imo).

Wanyama gives us great squad depth in the midfield which also frees up Dier to play CB if he's needed to cover there. Janssen is great cover for Kane and also allows us to play 2 up front if required. What we really need next is somebody who can play anywhere in attacking midfield to give Eriksen competition. With that said, i think giving Kane and Eriksen some competition will really spur them on and keep them on their toes.

Of course a £30m+ superstar would be great, but I think with the money we have, our priority definitely should be to strengthen our depth.
@THOWIG 's right though.

We still finished behind Leicester and Arsenal and only a fool will believe that ManC and ManU will not improve, and probably drastically, as well as Liverpool, all of whom have bigger resources and some of whom have already added outstanding - first team - players to their squads.

Squad depth is great, you can improve squad depth by buying reasonably priced back up type players but you only really improve as a team by buying better first team players and making last years first team players the back up.

No one is saying "we were shit last year, lets replace everyone". But Ferguson dominated English football for years by continually improving his first team, not wholesale, but a player here, a player there, not saying "we won the league, therefore it is impossible to improve".

I do not understand this mentality that says buying Wanyama or Wijnaldum will improve our first team one bit, at the very best they will just replicate what we already have, and if that's all they do, then we aren't going to improve, and that's at best, if you believe they are even as good as players we have here already.
 

SpartanSpur

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@THOWIG 's right though.

We still finished behind Leicester and Arsenal and only a fool will believe that ManC and ManU will not improve, and probably drastically, as well as Liverpool, all of whom have bigger resources and some of whom have already added outstanding - first team - players to their squads.

Squad depth is great, you can improve squad depth by buying reasonably priced back up type players but you only really improve as a team by buying better first team players and making last years first team players the back up.

No one is saying "we were shit last year, lets replace everyone". But Ferguson dominated English football for years by continually improving his first team, not wholesale, but a player here, a player there, not saying "we won the league, therefore it is impossible to improve".

I do not understand this mentality that says buying Wanyama or Wijnaldum will improve our first team one bit, at the very best they will just replicate what we already have, and if that's all they do, then we aren't going to improve, and that's at best, if you believe they are even as good as players we have here already.
I get what you are saying but by having players like Wimmer and Wanyama you can keep up the performance of the first team, a first team that for the middle 30 games put up a very competitive points total.

Also those teams all purchased players that would genuinely improve their first teams last season (Schneiderlin, Martial, Pedro, Cech, Sterling, Otamendi Schweinstieger, Firmino to name a few) and look what happened, we were still competitive. Granted there are better and happier managers in charge but I think there is always a hint of jealousy when you see others pulling off deals.

Funny thing is since Poch came in I've been far less anxious about our transfer plans, I'm more interested in watching this young team and manager continue to grow.

I personally do not understand the mentality that we can simply waltz out and sign a player to improve our first team, when we can't (or won't) get anywhere near the fees or wages required to compete with Arsenal and possibly Liverpool in deals, let alone the ridiculous Manchester clubs and the oligarchs plaything. Liverpool paid £30m+ for Mane, I'm not sure I'd have him over Alli, Lamela or Eriksen, so that's above our level and not even guaranteed best XI improvement.

Maybe we should just copy West Ham offering for top level players knowing we don't have what they want (for them CL, for us £100k-200k wages)
 

Bus-Conductor

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I get what you are saying but by having players like Wimmer and Wanyama you can keep up the performance of the first team, a first team that for the middle 30 games put up a very competitive points total.

Also those teams all purchased players that would genuinely improve their first teams last season (Schneiderlin, Martial, Pedro, Cech, Sterling, Otamendi Schweinstieger, Firmino to name a few) and look what happened, we were still competitive. Granted there are better and happier managers in charge but I think there is always a hint of jealousy when you see others pulling off deals.

Funny thing is since Poch came in I've been far less anxious about our transfer plans, I'm more interested in watching this young team and manager continue to grow.

I personally do not understand the mentality that we can simply waltz out and sign a player to improve our first team, when we can't (or won't) get anywhere near the fees or wages required to compete with Arsenal and possibly Liverpool in deals, let alone the ridiculous Manchester clubs and the oligarchs plaything. Liverpool paid £30m+ for Mane, I'm not sure I'd have him over Alli, Lamela or Eriksen, so that's above our level and not even guaranteed best XI improvement.

Maybe we should just copy West Ham offering for top level players knowing we don't have what they want (for them CL, for us £100k-200k wages)

Come on man, I think I get way more shit on here for suggesting how unrealistic it is that we think we can walz in and sign a player to improve our first team than for suggesting we can. There's a whole movement on here who's raison d'être it is to belittle those of us that continually point out how unrealistic it is that we think we can compete with the uber clubs or even start chucking silly money on big gambles.

My view is, I'd rather not spend money than spend quite a lot of money on players who for the odd game we already have pretty decent cover. I'm not talking Janssen here, I think 20m Eu for a player of his ilk (age, potential) in a squad that doesn't have clear categorical alternative for a pivotal role is decent business. I'm talking the likes of Wanyama & Wijnaldum. Even if we got the latter for 20m, that would be 31m plus what 6-7m py wages? For two players who are not better than what we have already and we have back ups here already for nothing who for 8-10 games a year could fill that remit whilst developing into something even better hopefully?

I'd rather have gone and spent that money on one player, and I won't start wish listing, but I think there are a smattering out there, who could have genuinely improved our first team group, or brought something different to the group that would have moved us forward and given us a different dimension of quality.
 

LexingtonSpurs

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Come on man, I think I get way more shit on here for suggesting how unrealistic it is that we think we can walz in and sign a player to improve our first team than for suggesting we can. There's a whole movement on here who's raison d'être it is to belittle those of us that continually point out how unrealistic it is that we think we can compete with the uber clubs or even start chucking silly money on big gambles.

My view is, I'd rather not spend money than spend quite a lot of money on players who for the odd game we already have pretty decent cover. I'm not talking Janssen here, I think 20m Eu for a player of his ilk (age, potential) in a squad that doesn't have clear categorical alternative for a pivotal role is decent business. I'm talking the likes of Wanyama & Wijnaldum. Even if we got the latter for 20m, that would be 31m plus what 6-7m py wages? For two players who are not better than what we have already and we have back ups here already for nothing who for 8-10 games a year could fill that remit whilst developing into something even better hopefully?

I'd rather have gone and spent that money on one player, and I won't start wish listing, but I think there are a smattering out there, who could have genuinely improved our first team group, or brought something different to the group that would have moved us forward and given us a different dimension of quality.
Wanyama is a lot better than any of the options currently on the squad to fill the role of DM rotation. Before Wanyama, we had nobody who could adequately fill that role.

I do tend to agree with Wijnaldum, but given that I have no access to training, I will give Poch the benefit of the doubt here, if we sign another player.
 
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