The Double-edged Sword

[Krafty]

As the team travel to Italy for a Uefa Cup game against Udinese, I am sure the majority, if not all, of us would prefer the team did not have this distraction and had an uninterrupted week to prepare for the Bolton match, a must win game.

With that lot down the road three days after, then Liverpool on the following Saturday, the games will continue to come thick and fast, and are not getting any easier.

Luka has already come out said the different style of continental football may suit us; I believe it could hurt us. We need to be playing like a premiership team, high pace, high impact, and our slow movement of the ball and lack of tempo anywhere on the pitch is one of the many problems we are suffering. This type of football is much more likely to succeed in Europe, but that might mean we will continue to fail with it in the league. 8 games have already gone, we cannot afford another 8 with a return of only two points, but if anything we will have less opportunity to do so.

No doubt the continual chopping and changing of the team because of Corluka and Pavlyuchenko being cup tied has been a problem, one that might cost Comolli his job. Add in the fact that it means Ledley has been chosen for the cup games and rested for league games, it means that we are never really prepared for the league games.

But, right now, we need the Uefa Cup. Firstly, it’s a distraction. The league situation is so dire that it will dominate headlines, but the chance to escape the media, the pressure, it could relax the players and allow them room to recapture their form. It also gives us a chance to refine tactics and formations, giving players another opportunity to build connections and understandings. If we do get knocked out, with the quality of our team and relative lack of others, it could be utterly demoralising.

Most importantly, however, we need to be in the Uefa Cup in January if we are going to attract anyone of real quality, players that are not merely a 6 month stop gap to help us escape relegation. Without European football, even in the short term, we are not an attractive club for someone to play for right now. We are rooted to the bottom of the league, the credibility of the manager is fast eroding, and we are not going to pay someone silly money to join us.

Right now we need to concentrate the majority of our resources on the league, but the importance of a continued Uefa cup campaign cannot be dismissed.

 

[onthetwo]

You seriously think a player would chose the team at the bottom of the league, and in pole position for relegation, just to play in the uefa cup for 6 months 4 months (max)?
Are you also one the people that still thinks we can finish in the top half?
I think you need to wake up mate.

 

[NeverRed]

That said, it's good experience for our young players to learn to play in both types of competition. It's important and expected that professionals at a top league side know how to do this and adjust their game for both. Plus any win right now is a positive.


P.S. can anyone tell me why oh why am I vinny samways? Can't I be Jurgen the German, Daviiiiiiiiiiid or the great ginger pele?

 

[jolsnogross]

So what are you trying to say - is it good or is it a bad thing to be playing in Europe??

I would hope a majority of people are more than happy to have a game in Europe. Why the hell do we follow football if not to see our team compete hard for all the competitions they're in. What's the point of qualifying for Europe and hoping we get there all season long, only to moan that it's a distraction when we're actually there? I've nothing but envy for fellas heading out to Italy for a couple of days or a long weekend, picking up a Spurs European night, and enjoying a smashing visit. Have a blast, and hopefully we get a good result.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

Of course it's a good thing to continue to play in Europe, not a diversion.

Wins breed confidence. Getting knocked out of the UEFA Cup at the group stages, or even just losing another 1 or 2 matches during the group stages, is not going to help the team's fragile confidence and would just reinforce the mental weakness that is such a major contributor to our poor performance. Wins don't just breed confidence, they breed more wins.

I don't agree with the original article about our "slow play". It's just factually incorrect. The team brims with pace: Bent, Lennon, Dos Santos, Jenas, Zokora, Hutton and Bale are all seriously quick.

We look slow because none of the midfielders or defenders knows what his new teammates are likely to do next. We play like a team of strangers because that's what we are. Players like Malbranque, Tainio, Lee, Chimbonda, Rocha, Ghaly, Keane and Berbatov were familiar with each other. They knew each other's tics, habits and devices. You can't sell 9 players, banish another 5 to the reserves and buy 10 players and expect everyone to pass to each other with one touch.

Instead, Modric, Jenas, Bentley and Lennon are visibly hesitating with the ball, waiting to see where their targets are going to go. Then they put in a pass anticipating a run and, at least 50% of the time, the target goes the other way. End of move, loss of possession.

We are paying the price for arrogance and hubris. Largely Juande Ramos' arrogance, his idea that he could reject half of the squad he inherited, import a load of players who had never experienced English football and immediately get them playing together.

We beat Roma 5-0. We won several pre-season games by lopsided margins. The moment we started to play English football, we came apart at the seams. Doesn't this suggest something about our Head Coach? Perhaps that he reckoned he knew a few things that he didn't actually know at all.

I don't think the failures at the end of the transfer window were very important at all. What was important was selling off a squad that had been carefully and slowly assembled over a 4 year period and reckoning that a load of strangers could take the Premiership by storm.

We don't miss Martin Jol as much as we miss Martin Jol's team. They played as a team.

 

[riversmonkey]

But, right now, we need the Uefa Cup. Firstly, it’s a distraction. The league situation is so dire that it will dominate headlines, but the chance to escape the media, the pressure, it could relax the players and allow them room to recapture their form.

The game is being televised live on channel five at a time where millions of people will no doubt be watching. The media, the pressure and the spotlight is not going away when we play in the UEFA Cup. One more defeat will sharpen the knives of the hacks and make the dissenters more vocal.

 

[3Dnata]

People really shouldn't pressume to "speak for the majority if not all of us".
You certainly aren't speaking for me.
I'm quite grateful for the distraction of the cups particularly at the moment.

 

[infamousyiddo]

i think its a welcomed distraction, and if we can win, it will surely give us confidence going into our game with bolton. If we can play with a bit of confidence; get an early goal; get fans singing their hearts out, it can only stand us in good sted.

On a side note, really think we (well ramos) should give 4-4-2 a chance vs bolton, and really REALLy go for the jugular from the first whistle.

 

[jolsnogross]

QUOTING DAVIDMATZDORF:
"We are paying the price for arrogance and hubris. Largely Juande Ramos' arrogance, his idea that he could reject half of the squad he inherited, import a load of players who had never experienced English football and immediately get them playing together."

You've been a consistent critic of Ramos - you apportioned blame to him as this malaise was developing - And I've agreed with you along the way. I agreed initially because I was annoyed that Jol got sacked and disagreed entirely with it (and still do). But Ramos had nothing to do with Jol, so I stayed neutral because his recent record was very good even if his overall career in Spain looked average.

But while I agree with you on Ramos, I disagree with your fairly strong defence of Levy and Comolli, whose arrogance and hubris is surely greater than Ramos' - certainly in terms of overall strategy and footballing philosophy at Spurs. Ramos just arrived, made an assessment of what he had, and chose to rip it all apart. He was wrong to do that, I think we agree. But the Chairman's own words regarding stability at the club, consistency of playing personnel, and the justification for Comolli should have prevented this from happening anyway. They deserve as much blame for our predicament as Ramos.

I've grown weary of Levy, and have long been a critic of Comolli because he has no CV. He's the Sarah Palin of football directors. My argument with him isn't comparing good signings with bad, but the general idea that 1) he has the ability to spot a player's ability and character; and 2) that he has the reputation and knowhow to build a club ethos and be involved in consistent, longer-term team building.

I'd like to see Comolli out (I was of that opinion very early on in his tenure); Levy staying or going doesn't bother me, though I'd add that I wouldn't be upset to see demonstrations targetting his arrogance and hubris! Although Ramos should stay on at the moment, I can't see his position being tenable if we go another 8 games with a couple of points. So I'd be interested in hearing your opinion, DM, of realistic alternatives for manager. And whether you're happy for Comolli to continue (and why).

 

[Coyboy]

We don't miss Martin Jol as much as we miss Martin Jol's team. They played as a team.

Inextricably linked.

I agree with the general point and said after the Wigan game that we should be playing a much more fluid, one touch, pacy and width-orientated style of play than we are. I expect to see us more comfortable and effective tonight as we will have more time on the ball. Clearly playing with the above style takes to time to generate and perfect but we should still be attempting to do so and be putting more pressure on the defenders.

I don't think that anyone could contest that Bale, Hutton, Lennon, Jenas and Bent are quick but they are not getting the chance to use thier pace because the slower more creative players like Modric, Bentley and Huddlestone when he played are not daring to pick the right passes and the aforementioned players are not playing together. Hell even Zokora is not as bad at passing as people say (see some assists in 06-07) and is of course lightening quick.Hutton looked very good the other day and made many runs down the right so there is hope when he is there.

 

[NeverRed]

We are paying the price for arrogance and hubris. Largely Juande Ramos' arrogance, his idea that he could reject half of the squad he inherited, import a load of players who had never experienced English football and immediately get them playing together.

But keane and berbatov did not want to reamin at spurs, quite fairly ramos said that he did not want any players in his team who did not want to be there, so off they went. Kaboul did not want to stay either and out he went too... Chimbonda possibly as well for the same reasons (an assumption based on an at times publicly expressive poor attitude in the later part of the season).

I would guess that a tripple deal from sunderland involving chimbo, tianio and marlbranque had as much to do with the board balancing books as it did triming the squad - hence a fair exodus too (although i never quite comprehended the marlbranque sale as he was one of the better performers for me last season and an impressive solid player).

There is not much playing staff wise that I can blame Ramos for. A 'new' squad does take time to settle, quite feasibly 8 games or even more. But the big failing is the lack of adequate replacement for berba & keane. I wouldn't attribute this to ramos either and of late there are indications he really was not happy with the striking cards he was dealt either.

In light of this I believe motivation and tactics are what we can judge ramos and his coaching staff by. Neither have stood out, but neither appear to be significantly bad. Players are keeping the right attitude, and my only tactical gripe is our attacking mids do not play high enough up to amply support a loan striker, and while not a gripe because I understand our current formation, personally I would opt for two up front. That or 3 higher up the pitch AMs behind the striker at the top.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

You've been a consistent critic of Ramos - you apportioned blame to him as this malaise was developing - And I've agreed with you along the way. I agreed initially because I was annoyed that Jol got sacked and disagreed entirely with it (and still do). But Ramos had nothing to do with Jol, so I stayed neutral because his recent record was very good even if his overall career in Spain looked average.

But while I agree with you on Ramos, I disagree with your fairly strong defence of Levy and Comolli, whose arrogance and hubris is surely greater than Ramos' - certainly in terms of overall strategy and footballing philosophy at Spurs. Ramos just arrived, made an assessment of what he had, and chose to rip it all apart. He was wrong to do that, I think we agree. But the Chairman's own words regarding stability at the club, consistency of playing personnel, and the justification for Comolli should have prevented this from happening anyway. They deserve as much blame for our predicament as Ramos...

I think you misunderstand me, or perhaps just read things I didn't quite write. I wouldn't defend Levy and Comolli at all in their decision-making over the past 10 months, indeed since Summer 2007.

I've just become entirely fed up with people demonising Comolli and repetitively assuming that he and Levy have stuck Ramos with a team that Ramos didn't want. Which is bollocks. So I've made a point of writing on several occasions that the wholesale squad change must have been on Ramos' request. Because it's a point that people keep missing.

That established, Levy and Comolli went along with it, apparently enthusiastically, so they are at least as guilty of arrogance and hubris as Ramos.

Levy isn't going anywhere and can't be sacked. He'll be there unless the fans make his life a misery and he stops enjoying it. And I think, overall and until the past year, he's done well for us.

As for Comolli, his job is to get the deals done. I don't think he bears any more (nor any less) responsibility for the recent individual errors of judgment than the other 3 men on the transfers committee.

Where Comolli has to be singled out is that it was clearly his initiative to try to get rid of Jol and install Ramos. If Ramos is deemed to have failed, Comolli has to go, because it was he who instigated the risky decision to end 4 years of incremental building and go for a quick step-change and a complete turnover in management and playing personnel.

All of them have taken collective responsibility, publicly. Why fans insist upon blaming some individuals and not others says more about the people doing the blaming than it does about the people being blamed.

 

[Krafty]

You seriously think a player would chose the team at the bottom of the league, and in pole position for relegation, just to play in the uefa cup for 6 months 4 months (max)?
Are you also one the people that still thinks we can finish in the top half?
I think you need to wake up mate.

I think that a player would rather play for a team in a relegation dogfight (I'm hoping come january we are not still rock bottom) and is still in the uefa cup than play for a team that is just in a relegation dogfight.

If we are still bottom and out of the cup why would someone choose us over WBA or Fulham? I'm not talking about big star players, I'm talking anyone of decent enough quality to make a difference. Even a 6 month loan deal would be more likely if we could also offer some games in Europe.

And no I dont think we will finish in the top half. I think 15th would be a massive ask.

 

[Krafty]

People really shouldn't pressume to "speak for the majority if not all of us".
You certainly aren't speaking for me.
I'm quite grateful for the distraction of the cups particularly at the moment.

I'm saying right now, with the games we have had, the little time the team has spent together, and the games coming up, we could have done with 7 days prep. If we dont beat Bolton I can see us being pointless for the next four games.

If we had the uefa cup next week instead then that would have been a massive help. I dont think Ramos has had three days together with the team on the training pitch. We are having two games a week, or internationals, and its not helping.

 

[Azrael]

I think the problem with European football is that for a club bottom of the table we need to be at our fittest and most able in the league and my concern is that with a lot of European and cup games interwoven with the league fixtures the squad will become exhausted when we need them to be playing at full strength. Even the PL's best managers have long complained of fixture congestion.

 

[Azrael]

I think that a player would rather play for a team in a relegation dogfight (I'm hoping come january we are not still rock bottom) and is still in the uefa cup than play for a team that is just in a relegation dogfight.

If we are still bottom and out of the cup why would someone choose us over WBA or Fulham? I'm not talking about big star players, I'm talking anyone of decent enough quality to make a difference. Even a 6 month loan deal would be more likely if we could also offer some games in Europe.

And no I dont think we will finish in the top half. I think 15th would be a massive ask.

I think what he meant was that UEFA cup or not, we are already an unattractive prospect.

 

[2bearis2do]

I've just become entirely fed up with people demonising Comolli and repetitively assuming that he and Levy have stuck Ramos with a team that Ramos didn't want. Which is bollocks. So I've made a point of writing on several occasions that the wholesale squad change must have been on Ramos' request. Because it's a point that people keep missing.

That established, Levy and Comolli went along with it, apparently enthusiastically, so they are at least as guilty of arrogance and hubris as Ramos.

I´m sure Ramos wanted his own team. No doubt and I´m sure this was part of the agreement made when we brown nosed him on all fours in Spain last year.

BUT, the First XI have NOT changed beyond recognition really. Apart from the strikeforce and there is no way anyone can say Ramos has got the strikers HE wanted!

- Ok new goalie.
- Back 4, just about the same as last year (bar Corluka)
- Midfield, well Jenas, Zokora and Lennon all still seem to be getting a game. Hudd is still there
- Strikers...well theres the joke really.

I don´t believe Ramos wanted any of the strikers we got in this summer. Do you?! A cup tied, knackered Russian, and a Man Utd YTS boy. Throw into the mix the fact that Corluka is also cup tied and you have to ask yourself how can such a transfer strategy be so incompetent? And yes, where does the blame lie? Ramos has to a point been landed with players he didn´t want! So its not the matter of fact bollox that you shout about.

Ramos wanted a new squad, new players, agreed and understood, but I don´t think he got any that were on his shopping list apart from Modric (who would be great in Spain, not in the PL.) and Dos Santos. I doubt Ramos had a clue who Bentley was before he arrived. Bentley is a classic FMG buy, young, talented and English with good resale value!

So, yes we got rid of a lot of players. But I don´t think there have been the wholesale changes that you repeatedly report. Its the loss and inadequate replacement of the front two thats has been our downfall. Simple as that. And no one can blame Ramos for that.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

I´m sure Ramos wanted his own team. No doubt and I´m sure this was part of the agreement made when we brown nosed him on all fours in Spain last year.

BUT, the First XI have NOT changed beyond recognition really.

I'm including last January's dealings, which were already in response to Ramos' demands. So the new players who appear in the first 11 include Woodgate, Hutton, Gomes, Gilberto, Corluka, Bentley, Modric, Dos Santos, Pavlyuchenko & Campbell. That qualifies as "wholesale" in my dictionary.

I don´t believe Ramos wanted any of the strikers we got in this summer. Do you?!...Ramos has to a point been landed with players he didn´t want! So its not the matter of fact bollox that you shout about.

My understanding is that he was very keen on both Pavlyuchenko and Arshavin and would have been contented with Milito.

I also have it from two people that virtually every player bought last Summer was Ramos' choice. There are a few who didn't get bought, but they were also Ramos' personal preferences. According to what I've been told, Ramos has definitely not been landed with players he didn't want, except perhaps for the last-minute stop-gap that is Campbell.

Ramos instigated the clear-out. Ramos instigated the acquisitions and was personally involved in choosing the players. I am not actually disappointed with the new players. I think they'll all be good, individually, when they get used to England and/or each other. What I am disappointed about - and I said it was mad before it happened - was the sale of several players who gave the side continuity, especially Malbranque and Tainio, not to mention Keane, who would have stayed willingly and continued to give 100% if he'd been told he couldn't go.

And it isn't just about the individual names. It's about the decision to stop building the side incrementally and buy a whole new midfield and defence, which is basically what's been done since January. Then three strikers left and suddenly we have what is effectively a whole new starting 11, except for Jenas, Zokora, Lennon and occasionally King or Huddlestone.

 

[Sauniere]

Ramos instigated the clear-out. Ramos instigated the acquisitions and was personally involved in choosing the players. I am not actually disappointed with the new players. I think they'll all be good, individually, when they get used to England and/or each other. What I am disappointed about - and I said it was mad before it happened - was the sale of several players who gave the side continuity, especially Malbranque and Tainio, not to mention Keane, who would have stayed willingly and continued to give 100% if he'd been told he couldn't go.

And it isn't just about the individual names. It's about the decision to stop building the side incrementally and buy a whole new midfield and defence, which is basically what's been done since January. Then three strikers left and suddenly we have what is effectively a whole new starting 11, except for Jenas, Zokora, Lennon and occasionally King or Huddlestone.

To be honest I can't see it being anyone else other than Ramos that instigated the clear out. After all, most of the players that have gone were either good reliable players or recent acquisitions. Bearing that in mind the Directors had no reason to ship them out (with the exception of Ghaly, Kaboul and Gardner). What is more, Ramos allegedly told the directors that he didn't want players at the club that didn't want to be there which was aimed at Keane and Berbatov. He is therefore instrumental in giving 50 goals per season away. In my opinion he did have every right to expect some decent players as replacements and probably has just cause for grievance that we are at least one very good striker down. It does ask the question though why the directors went ahead with both sales knowing we would be severely lacking in the striking department.

I feel that the whole sorry scenario is a collective debacle and no single person should really carry the can.

To answer the original post, I think we need more football games, we need them thick and fast regardless of whether they are cup or league games. I can see some momentum building and there's a glimmer of hope appearing but we need to keep building on it. Play the players that need to be played and quit the rotation unless injury dictates it. We can worry about tiredness later but for the time being we need results.

 

[strader]

I have to commend davidmatzdorf for explaining it whole DoF situation again.

When i heard football so called analyst talk about the DoF situation i feel like ripping my hair out.

When you compare DoF situation aboard and in England it is very different especially in spurs.

Do you for one sec believe DC will buy a player without the approval of JR, ever since we had a DoF at the club have you ever read the player coming out and saying when i heard DC was after me........ When we finished 5th to seasons in a roll, i never once heard a fan singing levy out.


When Fans get upset we have to get a scapegoat and now DC fits the bill.


In response to 2bearis2do; if you compare the team that played against Stoke

GK (new)
AH JW Corluka GB ( AH, JW were both bought in the jan window, and bale was injured then. so that makes a new back line bearing AH and JW that have only played together since jan till the season end)

DB, Jenas, Zokora, LM, AN (i guess we have JJ, DZ and AL. however this is a new formation any new task compared to previous season)

DB (don’t know about this)

Going by that i can pretty much say he have a new team with only.

i have to say; we are not missing jol at all but missing stability and confidence.

With the formation and players against stoke; if all was in place stoke should have got a good hammering but the rest is history.

I believe once it clicks it will be an awesome sight watching us play.