The England Thread

Discussion in 'General Football' started by THFCSPURS19, May 12, 2014.

  1. Ionman34

    Ionman34 SC Supporter

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    Thanks for posting BC, and I can see where you are coming from with the graphics. However, I feel that they also lend some weight to what I was posting. As you state, we have to factor in the tactics of the game, and I think that using Huddersfield as the comparison is incorrect. Huddersfield continued to show intent from the first minute against us, meaning that Winks had to maintain his CM discipline and remain in a deeper position alongside Dier. You also have to factor in that Eriksen is playing ahead of him, meaning that his was less of a playmaker role and more of the "metronome" role, as you put it, where his remit is to recycle early to the likes of Eriksen from the deeper role.

    Lithuania played much deeper, as you've stated, meaning that his default position is higher up the pitch with our defence effectively lining up at the halfway line. Regardless, his touch map is showing that most of his work is in two fairly confined areas either side of the centreline of the pitch, just inside their half. In the context of the game, that is a deep position just ahead of the defence. I would postulate that the touches shown in the more advanced positions came predominantly in the latter half of the first half, when Winks was involved in the intricate play I alluded to earlier. In the second half that pretty much disappeared, barring a couple of pots at goal.

    If possible, could you overlay Henderson's touch map, in another colour, so we can compare the two to see whether I imagined him playing as, predominantly, the more advanced of the two.

    The other thing I'd mention is that the Huddersfield touch map shows Winks evenly spread across the width of the pitch, affecting play in all areas. For England his movement appears more condensed to rigid areas, suggesting his movement, and therefore his influence, was curtailed. I think the Henderson comparison will either confirm what I'm saying or totally blow it out of the water!
     
  2. SpaggyBoy

    SpaggyBoy Active Member

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    I hate watching Spurs players play for England. It has a little to do with the possibility of picking up an injury, but mainly its the chance that the fetid stench of mediocrity that permanently infests and infects the England National Team will spread to their club form too.

    Personally, I'd love to see the England National Team shut down for good. What's the point of it all really? We get to sail through 10 qualifying games against shit opposition that provides little to no challenge, providing little real entertainment value. Once we've inevitably finished top of whatever group of minnows we've been drawn with, we then ignominiously bomb out of the main tournament the split second we play a good team. It's just so fucking pointless. Add to the fact that the position of England Manager is now so toxic that no decent manager will touch it with a ten foot barge pole, and so you end up with a sucession of shite like Southgate, Hodgeson and McClaren.

    Expecting anything other than disappointment from England is futile, so do yourselves a favour and accept the truth:

    England are shit and always will be.
     
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  3. Ionman34

    Ionman34 SC Supporter

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    So we've got a chance then?
     
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  4. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    I’m on my phone right now but feel free to go onto WhoScored and look for yourself, my guess is it will do neither, confirm or destroy your theory (or mine). I think it will show Henderson seeing a shitload more of the ball than Dier did against Huddersfield and he factually gave it away less in spite of this.

    I could just as easily argue that it was having two progressive CMs that is what helped England push forward, whereas I have pointed out many times that Dier drags teams deeper at times because he needs the game in front of him.

    Though slightly different, I think it would be hard to find two better direct comparisons tactically to fit this purpose so close together. Both 3421, both featuring similar player combos, both away, one with 60% possession and one with 67%. Both opponents began pressing higher and got deeper, neither offered anything in the attacking third. What differences there are are fairly nuanced.

    The bottom line is, I wasn’t saying Henderson is better than Dier defensively, I was saying he wouldn’t have improved or even made a difference to England or Winks yesterday, as some were suggesting.

    I think regardless of what Henderson’s heat map shows, the evidence above goes some way to supporting that, as does England’s recent previous games with Dier.
     
  5. SlickMongoose

    SlickMongoose Copacetic

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    Pretty sure that's what happened to Steven Caulker.
     
  6. Ionman34

    Ionman34 SC Supporter

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    I suppose this is just one of those instances where we'll have to agree to disagree, as I really can't be arsed to go on whoscored and hunt it down. (I'm not being facetious btw, I really can't be bothered!)
     
  7. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    Or we could agree that the body of evidence doesn't really support the theory that playing next to Dier would see Winks see less ball in deeper areas or spend much more time ahead of his partner?
     
  8. Rocksuperstar

    Rocksuperstar just a child getting older...

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    [​IMG]

    I'm so childish :oops:
     
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  9. Ionman34

    Ionman34 SC Supporter

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    Or we could agree that the evidence suggests that Dier's discipline allows Winks greater freedom of movement around the pitch, thus making him more effective?
     
  10. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    How an earth does this:

    Screen Shot 2017-10-09 at 14.12.22.png


    Suggest Winks had greater freedom of movement in forward areas (not around the pitch as I argued that it didn't mean Winks saw less ball in deeper areas and these prove that) that this:

    Screen Shot 2017-10-09 at 14.13.07.png


    Seriously ? Against Huddersfield he didn't even get near their box? Against Lithuania he was in there 4 times and around it a shitload more.

    It's like showing someone a picture of white and them saying, "see, I think in a weird way that proves Black".
     
  11. Ionman34

    Ionman34 SC Supporter

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    No need to get narky.

    What your graphic is showing is that Winks had 4 more touches further up the pitch for England than he did for Spurs. Hardly conclusive evidence my friend.
    On the other hand, they show that Winks had more freedom of the pitch alongside Dier than he did with Henderson, which is the point I've made from the start.

    If you don't accept that then fair enough, but you seeing it one way doesn't make it the only way.
     
  12. SUIYHA

    SUIYHA Well-Known Member

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    Some bookies are offering odds as long as 25/1 for England to win the World Cup. I don't think I've ever been less confident going into an international tournament. France, Italy and Argentina all have shorter odds than us even though none of them have qualified yet, in fact there's a very real chance that Argentina won't qualify as they've been disastrously bad in their group.

    Keegan, Hoddle, Barnes, Lineker, Gascoigne, Shearer, Beckham, Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney.......Bobby Robson, Terry Venables.....imagine all of these guys failing to achieve anything at international level but then the man who manages to end 52 years of hurt is Gareth Southgate, with Jordan Henderson, Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain and Gary Cahill becoming household names that our generation tell our grandchildren about.
     
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  13. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    No it doesn't, it shows he had 4 more touches in their box, and about 30 more in their half. How does it show he had more freedom ? He saw more ball with Henderson. he saw more ball on either side and in forward areas with Henderson? Saw more ball in his own half with Dier. If we are going to take these as evidence of anything at all then it's that they suggest what you are saying to be very wrong. I'm not getting narky, maybe my sarcasm was misplaced, your a good poster who I wouldn't have wasted time engaging in detail otherwise, I just found it bazaar that you could look at those and twist them into your argument somehow, when they are so far from that.

    By all means argue they aren't a full picture etc, but you can't claim they support what you are saying and on the face of it they make a pretty strong case for what I was arguing.
     
  14. Shadydan

    Shadydan Well-Known Member

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    Arguing over some dots :LOL:
     
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  15. Rocksuperstar

    Rocksuperstar just a child getting older...

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    I look at them two... dot-a-grams? Who knows? I look at them and all i can think of is Football Manager 2002.

    Would it help if i suggested signing Jonathan Blondel to a senior contract? He'll accept cheap wages and he's pretty swift :whistle:
     
  16. yankspurs

    yankspurs "We're not a selling club"

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    Doubled down on England. Don't let me down, Southgate(y)
     
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  17. npearl4spurs

    npearl4spurs Believing Member

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    Well, the absence of white is black.
     
  18. Trix

    Trix Well-Known Member

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    Joe Hart played 9 conceded 17
    Jordan Pickford played13 conceded 18
    Jack Butland played 9 conceded 20

    Bodes well so far doesn't it.
     
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  19. bceej

    bceej Well-Known Member

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    Nick Pope played 5, conceded 7 (3 against City).
     
  20. nailsy

    nailsy SC Supporter

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    It probably says more about the defence they play behind though. Pickford's made twice as many saves as Lloris this season.
     
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