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The England Thread

'O Zio

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2014
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Ridiculous. The whole "positive discrimination" thing does nothing to help BME people whether it be those applying for England manager or just regular jobs working for the police etc. All it does is breed resentment in my experience because, as @Shadydan says, any BME person in a job is automatically seen by others as only having got the job to make up the quota etc. and people being turned down for jobs often end up with the attitude of "I bet I'd have been given the job if I was black" etc.

I'm not saying that's right, in fact I think it's awful that people think like that, but in my experience that's often how these things end up being in the workplace and ordinarily rational and non-racist people end up drifting that way out of bitterness. People should be given jobs on merit. End of. Positive discrimination, if anything, just breeds more racism due to all the resentment and jealousy IMO.
 

danielneeds

Kick-Ass
May 5, 2004
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48,764
The problem is if an ethnic minority gets a good job out of this he/she is still going to be looked down upon because people think they only got the job because of their skin colour, it's pointless.
I think that's far less of a problem than there being only like two BAME managers in the whole of the professional men's game. It's a disgrace.
 

LexingtonSpurs

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2013
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39,042
My perspective, following the Ronney Rule in the NFL, is that the rule is necessary and effective.

When it first came about in the NFL, most of the reactions were the same as you see here - ranging from "Its racist" to "its ineffective". But, most of those points miss the value of the rule.

Football, American and otherwise, is a vast "old-boys" network. Jobs tend to go to people you know, or people who have been recommended to you. For Ethnic minorities - they did not "know" anyone. They could not get their foot in the door to get to know anyone. So, what the Rooney Rule did was open the door. Minorities had rarely even gotten interviews for positions, so they lacked both the interviewing skills/experience and the networking opportunities.

When the Rooney rule was firs adopted, it did not lead to a flood of new jobs for minorities, and there were several instances where a minority might have been a "token" interview to comply with the rule. But, soon enough, as more minorities were getting interviews - more minorities moved up the lists of potential hires. People who previously never had a chance to be heard were now getting an opportunity to make their case that they were the most qualified candidate. And, soon, minorities, as the most qualified candidates, started to be hired.

But, it had to start with opening the door to allow those voices to be heard, allow that networking to take place, and to force teams to expand their ideas of what constitutes the best available candidates.
 

'O Zio

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2014
7,405
13,785
I think that's far less of a problem than there being only like two BAME managers in the whole of the professional men's game. It's a disgrace.

It is a disgrace, but I don't think this is the way to change that.
 

'O Zio

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2014
7,405
13,785
My perspective, following the Ronney Rule in the NFL, is that the rule is necessary and effective.

When it first came about in the NFL, most of the reactions were the same as you see here - ranging from "Its racist" to "its ineffective". But, most of those points miss the value of the rule.

Football, American and otherwise, is a vast "old-boys" network. Jobs tend to go to people you know, or people who have been recommended to you. For Ethnic minorities - they did not "know" anyone. They could not get their foot in the door to get to know anyone. So, what the Rooney Rule did was open the door. Minorities had rarely even gotten interviews for positions, so they lacked both the interviewing skills/experience and the networking opportunities.

When the Rooney rule was firs adopted, it did not lead to a flood of new jobs for minorities, and there were several instances where a minority might have been a "token" interview to comply with the rule. But, soon enough, as more minorities were getting interviews - more minorities moved up the lists of potential hires. People who previously never had a chance to be heard were now getting an opportunity to make their case that they were the most qualified candidate. And, soon, minorities, as the most qualified candidates, started to be hired.

But, it had to start with opening the door to allow those voices to be heard, allow that networking to take place, and to force teams to expand their ideas of what constitutes the best available candidates.

The question is, how much of that was specifically down to the Rooney rule? Could it not also be that a lot of the "old boys" who grew up in the days of segregation etc. were retiring and the newer generation are naturally less "racist" and less entrenched in the old boys network?
 

danielneeds

Kick-Ass
May 5, 2004
24,179
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It is a disgrace, but I don't think this is the way to change that.
It's the only way. Change won't happen naturally in a closed shop, old boy's network like football. Good white managers have nothing to be scared of, it's the lazy ones who spend all day reading the Racing Post, or in the pub, who'd stop getting reemployed just because of who they know.
 

LexingtonSpurs

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2013
13,456
39,042
The question is, how much of that was specifically down to the Rooney rule? Could it not also be that a lot of the "old boys" who grew up in the days of segregation etc. were retiring and the newer generation are naturally less "racist" and less entrenched in the old boys network?
No - they had to be dragged kicking and screaming.

Now, its not necessary. But it was not going to happen voluntarily.
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
I think that's far less of a problem than there being only like two BAME managers in the whole of the professional men's game. It's a disgrace.

That's more to do with the fact that there's no pipeline or encouragement for black coaches, same old white faces will get the jobs because their face fits...i.e jobs for the boys.
 

tiger666

Large Member
Jan 4, 2005
27,978
82,214
I think that's far less of a problem than there being only like two BAME managers in the whole of the professional men's game. It's a disgrace.

Are there many black ex-players going in to coaching and being overlooked for the better jobs? Or just not many are going in to coaching in the first place?
 

danielneeds

Kick-Ass
May 5, 2004
24,179
48,764
Are there many black ex-players going in to coaching and being overlooked for the better jobs? Or just not many are going in to coaching in the first place?
It's a chicken and egg thing, isn't it? More would be interested if they thought it wasn't a closed shop, and it didn't seem like there was still prejudice at the top level of the game. Also more would be inspired if there were more role model BAME managers.
 

talkshowhost86

Mod-Moose
Staff
Oct 2, 2004
48,105
47,061
That's more to do with the fact that there's no pipeline or encouragement for black coaches, same old white faces will get the jobs because their face fits...i.e jobs for the boys.

I think this is true.

But I think the way to sort this is by introducing the Rooney rule at lower levels, rather than just bringing it in at England level.

You need to encourage BAME managers to get into the game at club level to increase the pool of managers to pick from, rather than having it as almost a token gesture when there aren't actually any/many BAME managers/coaches to pick from.
 

LSUY

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2005
24,010
66,826
Have no problem with the Rooney rule, it should be extended to the PL as well. Within three years of the rule being implemented in the NFL the number of black coaches jumped from 6% to 22%.

After Bill Cowher stepped down as the Pittsburgh Steelers head coach Cowher's longtime assistant Russ Grimm was the overwhelming favourite to replace him. Prior to the rule the Steelers and pretty much every other NFL team would straight away hire their favourite candidate but the rule forced the Steelers to interview other candidates alongside Grimm. They interviewed a black assistant coach called Mike Tomlin who impressed the owners so much that he won the job. Six AFC North championships, two AFC championships, and a Super Bowl victory later I'm happy the Rooney rule gave Tomlin the opportunity to interview for the job.

Diversity among job candidates isn't simply positive discrimination, casting the widest net increases the chances of finding the best person for the job.
 

talkshowhost86

Mod-Moose
Staff
Oct 2, 2004
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I think it is always important when these issues around race come up to both agree that more BAME managers would be a good thing, but to also acknowledge that Sol C***bell remains a complete **** who doesn't even deserve a job at Poundland.
 

Rocksuperstar

Isn't this fun? Isn't fun the best thing to have?
Jun 6, 2005
53,290
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Just been looking at lists of players who are in the frame for the squad - Has there ever been a time in recent history that we've been so thin on the ground for even half decent keepers? Sure, Pickford isn't really bad, but he's not exactly consistent, second choice is a 22 year old playing in the Champs, but Joe Hart is STILL the third option - is this really all we've got? Or is this just a page where they throw up the last team that was selected? (considering there's no Kane listed, i suspect this might be the case).

At this rate the FA could do worse than sending a man out to India to poach David James back from managing Kerala Blasters for a recall.
 

nailsy

SC Supporter
Jul 24, 2005
30,536
46,628
Just been looking at lists of players who are in the frame for the squad - Has there ever been a time in recent history that we've been so thin on the ground for even half decent keepers? Sure, Pickford isn't really bad, but he's not exactly consistent, second choice is a 22 year old playing in the Champs, but Joe Hart is STILL the third option - is this really all we've got? Or is this just a page where they throw up the last team that was selected? (considering there's no Kane listed, i suspect this might be the case).

At this rate the FA could do worse than sending a man out to India to poach David James back from managing Kerala Blasters for a recall.

I think we've got the best selection of keepers that we've had for quite a while. Pickford is very good and was very consistent at Sunderland. I haven't seen much of him this season, but I haven't heard of him making very many errors. Maybe I've missed them? We've also got Butland, Pope, Heaton (injured?), and Foster. Forster at Southampton seems to be out of form at the moment but he's usually a solid keeper.
 

Vdvaart80

Well-Known Member
Jul 5, 2011
78
411
I think we've got the best selection of keepers that we've had for quite a while. Pickford is very good and was very consistent at Sunderland. I haven't seen much of him this season, but I haven't heard of him making very many errors. Maybe I've missed them? We've also got Butland, Pope, Heaton (injured?), and Foster. Forster at Southampton seems to be out of form at the moment but he's usually a solid keeper.

Only players who are playing regular football for clubs should be in England squad. So if Hart isn’t playing he shouldn’t go.
 

nailsy

SC Supporter
Jul 24, 2005
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Only players who are playing regular football for clubs should be in England squad. So if Hart isn’t playing he shouldn’t go.

I agree with the first part. Hart shouldn't be selected because he's been out of form for over a year.
 

talkshowhost86

Mod-Moose
Staff
Oct 2, 2004
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I think we've got the best selection of keepers that we've had for quite a while. Pickford is very good and was very consistent at Sunderland. I haven't seen much of him this season, but I haven't heard of him making very many errors. Maybe I've missed them? We've also got Butland, Pope, Heaton (injured?), and Foster. Forster at Southampton seems to be out of form at the moment but he's usually a solid keeper.

Forster has been an absolute calamity for a while, and I think Ben Foster has retired from international football.

I agree that we've got a few decent options though. Pickford should be number 1 for me, although it should be picked on form between him and Butland in the build up to the World Cup. Pope is doing well in Heaton's absence but I think the latter would be the better option as our 3rd keeper if he's fit. Hart should be nowhere near the squad.

The bigger issue for me is in defence. Watching Jones and Smalling plod around last night really showed how weak England are in that position, and Cahill was also very easily bypassed for a couple of Bournemouth's goals.

Stones is doing well at City, but needs a strong influence next to him and I'm not sure England have got that.

I think we've also got an issue at left back where Rose hasn't looked fit for a while, Bertrand is quite limited, and Delph is still relatively new to the position (and has been largely untested in a City team that has so much of the ball).
 

nailsy

SC Supporter
Jul 24, 2005
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Forster has been an absolute calamity for a while, and I think Ben Foster has retired from international football.

I agree that we've got a few decent options though. Pickford should be number 1 for me, although it should be picked on form between him and Butland in the build up to the World Cup. Pope is doing well in Heaton's absence but I think the latter would be the better option as our 3rd keeper if he's fit. Hart should be nowhere near the squad.

The bigger issue for me is in defence. Watching Jones and Smalling plod around last night really showed how weak England are in that position, and Cahill was also very easily bypassed for a couple of Bournemouth's goals.

Stones is doing well at City, but needs a strong influence next to him and I'm not sure England have got that.

I think we've also got an issue at left back where Rose hasn't looked fit for a while, Bertrand is quite limited, and Delph is still relatively new to the position (and has been largely untested in a City team that has so much of the ball).

Has Foster retired again? I know he retired years ago when his kids were small, but he's been in various squads since then.
 
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