The England Thread

[TEESSIDE1]

But there's certinaly an element of doubt about it which makes the Ref's initial decision not a "clear and obvious error" which is the criteria under which a decision is supposed to be overturned by VAR.

Drives me nuts. The only time I've seen them get this right is the first time when that ref looked at Willian get clipped in the Norwich game and didn't overturn his initial decision of play on. That ref got all sorts of shit for that but he was right - there was enough doubt to suggest that Willian was already going down and looking for the pen and and the clip was incidental. If the ref had given a pen VAR wouldn't change that decision. And Vice Versa.

It shouldn't be hard to understand "clear and obvious error" but nobody seems to get it right.

It’s like cricket:

Umpire gives you not out, replay shows the ball was clipping the stumps which is technically out but the umpires original decision stands as there was a clear element of doubt.

 

['O Zio]

But there's certinaly an element of doubt about it which makes the Ref's initial decision not a "clear and obvious error" which is the criteria under which a decision is supposed to be overturned by VAR.

Drives me nuts. The only time I've seen them get this right is the first time when that ref looked at Willian get clipped in the Norwich game and didn't overturn his initial decision of play on. That ref got all sorts of shit for that but he was right - there was enough doubt to suggest that Willian was already going down and looking for the pen and and the clip was incidental. If the ref had given a pen VAR wouldn't change that decision. And Vice Versa.

It shouldn't be hard to understand "clear and obvious error" but nobody seems to get it right.

How is it not a clear and obvious error? I get your point if it was one of these daft offside decisions where even after seeing it 10 times it's impossible to tell if their nosehair was slightly offside etc. but in this case the bloke has had his foot trodden on, which is a clear foul and prevented him from getting a shot away, however that clear penalty was not given. Therefore it was a clear and obvious error and was quite correctly overturned by VAR. Whether or not it was an accident is completely irrelevant. The fact is it was a foul all day long so the VAR got it right.

 

[WiganSpur]

VAR is all wrong.

Yes it was a pen but it certainly wasn't a clear and obvious mistake from the referee. If it's used for anything other than blatant errors then it's just taking the emotion out of it for a decision that wouldn't have caused a great deal of controversy had it stood.

I hate the notion that if there's any sort of contact in the box then it must be a penalty. Really not sure that would have been given outside the box.

A more sensible use of it would have been the decision with Rashford on Friday.

Imagine watching the WC and seeing that bollocks after England take the lead against Belgium.

 

['O Zio]

VAR is all wrong.

Yes it was a pen but it certainly wasn't a clear and obvious mistake from the referee. If it's used for anything other than blatant errors then it's just taking the emotion out of it for a decision that wouldn't have caused a great deal of controversy had it stood.

I hate the notion that if there's any sort of contact in the box then it must be a penalty. Really not sure that would have been given outside the box.

Imagine watching the WC and seeing that bollocks after England take the lead against Belgium.

What are you talking about? How is it not a clear and obvious error? After seeing the replay it was blatantly a foul and therefore an obvious error. It's about as black and white a decision as it's possible to get.

 

[WiganSpur]

What are you talking about? How is it not a clear and obvious error? After seeing the replay it was blatantly a foul and therefore an obvious error. It's about as black and white a decision as it's possible to get.

I've seen a lot more clearer penalties not given. Although I think it was a penalty I completely disagree that it's "as black and white a decision as it's possible to get".

Would there have been huge uproar had that not been given?

 

[Phomesy]

What are you talking about? How is it not a clear and obvious error? After seeing the replay it was blatantly a foul and therefore an obvious error. It's about as black and white a decision as it's possible to get.

No there’s very good questions whether the player has already lost the ball and is already going down when his foot is accidentally trodden on. I think it’s a pen I also think it’s not a clear and obvious error by the ref.

So now he’s made two mistakes. Brilliant.

 

[Shadydan]

It’s a tough one and hard to say really where the line should be drawn. How do you distinguish between:

Tarkowski standing on Chiesa’s foot, Van D kicking Lamela, a striker taking a heavy touch and losing control but gets wiped out by the keeper.

We always see spates of incidents... there’s the whole diving saga, was it a dive or did he go down under his own momentum, then there’s players running in the box during a penalty or how about player A cleanly gets the ball from player B but his other leg wipes him out resulting in a yellow or even a red.

VAR should purely be used for goal line technology and off the ball incidents. Nit picking over penalties and offsides is what’s ruining the game.

Van Dijk's tackle on Lamela was a foul because he took away the advantage from him, also a striker taking a heavy touch and gets wiped out by the keeper should always be a foul because if the keeper doesn't lunge the chances are the striker stays on his feet and has a chance at a shot at goal but I regress...

This is literally the point about VAR so refs can scrutinise contentious incidents butt the biggest take away from this is that they still can't distinguish between a legitimate foul and an accidental coming together, the most disappointing thing is that the ref had a chance to review it and he still gave a pen, if they're are going to mis-use VAR then it's completely pointless.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

The issue with England's midfield is that Dier is the only one playing...

Ox is not helping at all.

Its like they are lined up in a 3-3-4 - except Sterling is dropping deep to get the ball. Lingard is not helping defensively, nor is Ox - leaving Dier to shield the play.

I think Dier is doing a good job.

I've just started the second half, but first 50 minutes Dier has been fucking turgid. He cannot step past a man, so unless he receives the ball in space all he does is shuffle it backwards to someone standing 4 yards from him.

And @Frozen_Waffles - yes England are playing 3 at the back, but also playing a kind of 3 in midfield, with OC and Lingard dropping in either side, plus two WB's who can both play football, so he's not outnumbered.

In an ideal world, I wouldn't have OC and Lingard in there, I'd have Wilshire, Winks or Lallana, but Dier is captain fucking slow, he's like a human hand brake. And if he played for anyone else he'd be getting mullered for his performance on here.

Henderson's no Alonso either, but at least he can move with the ball and has a bit of dynamism about him.

 

[Phomesy]

Anyone else starting to suspect @Bus-Conductor is actually a Russian spam bot designed to cause division and suspicion amongst Spurs and England fans?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Anyone else starting to suspect @Bus-Conductor is actually a Russian spam bot designed to cause division and suspicion amongst Spurs and England fans?

Or that I'm not a 12yo who just thinks everyone who plays for Spurs is Wonder Woman ?

 

[mpickard2087]

I don't think this will be popular, but in the last couple of games you can see the areas of Walker's game that have come on since he has been under Guardiola's tutelage..... It might not always be done perfectly, but he's making angles and movements to open up passing lanes, both laterally and horizontally, and just seems to be thinking more proactively about the game and playing smarter with his head up.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Just finished watching the game. Overall, there's plenty of naivety about this England team, but then there would be, it's a pretty long side, and Southgate isn't a brilliant coach in terms of structure, organisation and discipline, but there's also a refreshing chutzpah about this team too. There's no super stars or humungous egos, there's no one in there because of what they did 8 years ago or just because they play for a big club.

Southagte is basically reaping the reward of the likes of Guardiola, Pochettino and Klop, all proactive, front foot coaches who instil a progressive, aggressive, front foot type attitude in their players.

Without the ball they are still quite vulnerable, and were lucky not to be 2 or 3 down in the first 30 minutes, but they also play with an exuberance, which is a fucking welcome upgrade on the turgid, risk averse, long ball garbage, panic football England have been playing.

Win lose or draw, and even with the lack of a bit of tactical wherewithal without the ball, it's still more fun watching this lot than what's gone before.

The biggest problem England have is the midfield. The immediate future is probably Henderson central of the 3 or 2, with Lallana and Wilshire, with maybe Winks in there if he gets fit. Into the future, there are players like Ejaria, Matland-Niles, Loftus-Cheek etc. But it's a problem that really needs solving.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I don't think this will be popular, but in the last couple of games you can see the areas of Walker's game that have come on since he has been under Guardiola's tutelage..... It might not always be done perfectly, but he's making angles and movements to open up passing lanes, both laterally and horizontally, and just seems to be thinking more proactively about the game and playing smarter with his head up.

To be fair to Pochettino, he did improve Walker exponentially as well. He's still Walker, but both managers have added something to his thought process, Pochettino defensively, Guadiola more in football terms maybe.

I'd also say, I've watched Walker a lot this year, and as a FB the old weaknesses are still there, his delivery is still pretty unreliable, and he still makes the odd stupid mistake, but Guadiola likes his full backs to play as auxiliary midfielders and this has undoubtedly given Walker something else to think about.

 

[mpickard2087]

To be fair to Pochettino, he did improve Walker exponentially as well. He's still Walker, but both managers have added something to his thought process, Pochettino defensively, Guadiola more in football terms maybe.

I'd also say, I've watched Walker a lot this year, and as a FB the old weaknesses are still there, his delivery is still pretty unreliable, and he still makes the odd stupid mistake, but Guadiola likes his full backs to play as auxiliary midfielders and this has undoubtedly given Walker something else to think about.

Yeah he can still serve up one of his specials at any moment (I saw he still does his trademarked 'run around the ball and try to half volley it with fade back to the keeper ' mishap the other week for example) but he's definitely showing more game intelligence particularly with his movements. I do like that about Guardiola, I know most belittle him for the clubs he works at and that he unnecessarily complicates things, but he gets players thinking, acting more intelligently, appreciating the game more and usually making better choices.

 

[Fowl!]

My world view has been discredited tonight. Video review has shown that Italian footballers are sinned against and not themselves sinners.

Either that or var is hopeless.

 

[Frozen_Waffles]

I've just started the second half, but first 50 minutes Dier has been fucking turgid. He cannot step past a man, so unless he receives the ball in space all he does is shuffle it backwards to someone standing 4 yards from him.

And @Frozen_Waffles - yes England are playing 3 at the back, but also playing a kind of 3 in midfield, with OC and Lingard dropping in either side, plus two WB's who can both play football, so he's not outnumbered.

In an ideal world, I wouldn't have OC and Lingard in there, I'd have Wilshire, Winks or Lallana, but Dier is captain fucking slow, he's like a human hand brake. And if he played for anyone else he'd be getting mullered for his performance on here.

Henderson's no Alonso either, but at least he can move with the ball and has a bit of dynamism about him.

I didn't see lingard drop in once, he offers very little apart from his goals. OC flatters to deceive and did not offer support.

Henderson, when he came on the game changed, that control we had was lost. Not necessarily because of Dier dropping back, more because Henderson is a championship player.

That was never a midfield three. It was a two and one of them was doing sfa defensively.

It's like if a midfielder doesn't run about like a nutcase he is not a proper Cm.

Positioning, it's all about positioning, movement, making yourself available, blocking passes.

This is where Dier excels.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Yeah he can still serve up one of his specials at any moment (I saw he still does his trademarked 'run around the ball and try to half volley it with fade back to the keeper ' mishap the other week for example) but he's definitely showing more game intelligence particularly with his movements. I do like that about Guardiola, I know most belittle him for the clubs he works at and that he unnecessarily complicates things, but he gets players thinking, acting more intelligently, appreciating the game more and usually making better choices.

This is a good read on that subject:

Pep Guardiola helps Manchester City players ditch script

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...anchester-city-players-ditch-script-b5p85q2cd

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I watched the Germany v Spain game and the difference in quality between what was on offer from England, Italy or Holland was quantum. Even this less effective Spain.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I didn't see lingard drop in once, he offers very little apart from his goals. OC flatters to deceive and did not offer support.

Henderson, when he came on the game changed, that control we had was lost. Not necessarily because of Dier dropping back, more because Henderson is a championship player.

That was never a midfield three. It was a two and one of them was doing sfa defensively.

It's like if a midfielder doesn't run about like a nutcase he is not a proper Cm.

Positioning, it's all about positioning, movement, making yourself available, blocking passes.

This is where Dier excels.

That's bollocks mate, England were shelling it before Southgate swapped out a CF, a FB and all three CM's, hardly going to aid rhythm is it. There's running about like a nut case and then there's just having a bit of fucking vim, and the ability to move.

I don't remember anyone lecturing us about it being all about blocking passes when Phil Jones was playing CM for England, he was just a turgid ****. And Italy had more chances when Dier was playing CM.

 

[Danners9]

Not happy about that being given as a penalty. On the slo-mo it looks a foul but slowing down the video makes most things look worse than they are, and often does a good job at removing the context. In real time it's two players side by side coming in contact, and the ball has gone.

It's difficult because the VAR helps them see a foul they may not have seen without it, but it will upgrade minor contact to major punishments.

The WC is going to be 'fun'...