The England World Cup Thread

[Dr Benson]

You need to work on it.
You need to work on that too.
Keep working on it.



Black people whose parents, grandparents or great-parents came here as immigrants are as British as anyone else. It's really that simple.

Yes, I have no problems with accepting black british people as british. That was not my point. Mu point was more that they are overrepresented in sports on the british side and England is underperforming. Same can off course be said about France when it comes to football, but they are performing well. My whole point was not all about race. Guess some people see my point..

 

[Dr Benson]

It's the diet mate. The colonials bought jerk chicken with them to the UK and if you look at obesity rates, they've actually increased now compared to before they came. Can't be any clearer than that.

Also, they must have developed a sweet tooth from the work we put them to on those sugar cane plantations. We now have a fucking sugar tax because it's all got so out of hand. We're in the middle of a sugar crisis. If you look at the date this sugar tax came into affect, it's after the mid-century influx from the colonies. Add that to the obesity rates and extrapolate from there: It's conclusive proof of why our football team is so shit.

All this, yet they only contribute to sports no one cares about. Dafuq cares about athletics anyway. They make us fat then don't even bother putting in a shift for the football team. And when they do they're just preventing the ethnic Brits from doing well.



The one part of your post that makes sense.

Oh, I really regret mentioning words like black, white, ethnic in this context. You obviously get hangups when it comes to this. Was my point really about race and immigration?

 

[Amo]

Yes, I have no problems with accepting black british people as british. That was not my point. Mu point was more that they are overrepresented in sports on the british side and England is underperforming. Same can off course be said about France when it comes to football, but they are performing well. My whole point was not all about race. Guess some people see my point..

It's a class thing. Notice how poor people are very overrepresented in football and very underrepresented in most other sports?

It seems slightly different in Scandinavia, most players appear to be from middle class backgrounds. But I have no evidence of that, just anecdotal and slightly ill-informed judgements.

 

[Dr Benson]

It's a class thing. Notice how poor people are very overrepresented in football and very underrepresented in most other sports?

It seems slightly different in Scandinavia, most players appear to be from middle class backgrounds. But I have no evidence of that, just anecdotal and slightly ill-informed judgements.

Yes, but my point was not about race. I just mentioned that in athletics its people with immigrant background who are doing it well for England/UK. My point was more like, how well would you do it in football/sports without immigrants, and whats the reason for England not doing too well in football after all (?). Its not a class thing in Scandinavia. You're right. Scandinavia doesn't have class based societies anymore anyway. In Norway you are more or less middle class or rich now a days..

 

[TheBlueRooster]

Jesus wept some people really are a sensitive bunch aren’t they. Sorry in future I’ll stick to the party line of England were great and should return as heroes after over coming the mammoth task of beating Tunisia, Panama and Sweden.

That’s the problem with so much of both spurs and England, fans are happy to accept mediocrity and as long as we don’t embarrass ourselves then it’s been a successful season / tournament.

The trouble is, if this line if we were great keeps being thrown out there then how are we going to improve? We played 2 decent to good teams in the entire tournament.......... and lost both. Sorry if I’m not pushing for Southgate to be knighted.

You left out Columbia. The problem is we were drawn against these teams and did what we had to do to win one way or another. I get you're playing Devils advocate, but in footballing terms this is the best England fans have felt since 1996 when the real meaning of "Football's coming home" was meant.

I just hope we beat Belgium on Saturday and win our final game of the World Cup.

 

[Amo]

You left out Columbia. The problem is we were drawn against these teams and did what we had to do to win one way or another. I get you're playing Devils advocate, but in footballing terms this is the best England fans have felt since 1996 when the real meaning of "Football's coming home" was meant.

I just hope we beat Belgium on Saturday and win our final game of the World Cup.

And come third in a World Cup. The wiki page lists the top three in the info box. Never the other semi finalists.

 

[rez9000]

I don`t want to be a dickhead or provoke. That`s not my intention. Don`t get me wrong. But I`m thinking about Englands lack of results and performance in football and in sports in general. If we compare England with Germany, France, Spain, and Italy, England should be quite comparable when it comes to population, the popularity of football in the country and your football league. England have the best or the second best (?) football league in the world. But, there`s an under-performance from the national team in general. (Though this tournament wasn`t that bad, off course..) But,in sports in general. In athletics it hasn`t been that bad. But, more or less it`s jamaicans and other blacks from former colonies jumping and running for England, isn`t it? In cycling there have been some ethnic english/british doing well. I`ll give you that. But in general sports, no. So, whats the reason? Is this a debate in England? I might sound like a foolish idiot, but I`m thinking about diet. Is british diet too unhealthy? Could that be a plausible explanation factor? I can`t think about another reason, even though it might sound silly. 1966 was the last time, and even worse, 1990 was the last time you managed to go to a semifinal. And since 1990 Premier League/old 1.divison has been one of the three best leagues in the world. And as I said, I don`t want to be a prick, I`m just lifting up some thoughts and questions here..

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and accept that you don't mean to be racist.

However, you ARE being racist, whether you wish to be or not and I'll explain why:

First off, the term 'Jamaicans and other blacks' is racist. You are lumping together a diverse group of individuals from a massive selection of different, discrete cultures into one grouping. It would be like me saying that the majority of Europeans are 'Norwegians and other whites'.

Secondly, you make the assumption that people who describe themselves as black are inherently better at sports than those who describe themselves otherwise. That's the same as saying that all 'black' men have large penises. It is ascribing a characteristic to a group based on the colour of their skin.

The reason that there are a larger proportion of people who would describe themselves as black in the sports set up of this country is because minority ethnic groups, as a result of socio-economic and political factors outside of their control are, generally speaking, poorer than the indigenous population. This poverty restricts their opportunities. Of those restricted options, sport is the one that is often turned to.

The other reason that England (and France) have so many 'black' players is because we have higher proportions of minority ethnic populations compared to other countries because of our colonial past. Because of that, we have connections with parts of the world with 'black' ethnicities (for us, the Caribbean, for the French, Africa). As a result, the immigration we have seen has principally been from those regions of the world. It's also the reason why there are large numbers of people from Indian, Pakistani and Bangladeshi heritage in the UK compared to other European countries.

It is the combination of those two factors that has led to there being a high proportion of 'black' players in the England squad and in the English league. Not because black people are physically better or eat specific 'non-white' food. The vast majority of 'black' players in the current English set up were born in this country; two have an 'English' parent:

Ashley Young was born in Hertfordshire; Kyle Walker, Danny Rose, and Fabian Delph were all born in Yorkshire; Trent Alexander-Arnold was born in Liverpool; Jesse Lingard, Danny Welbeck, and Marcus Rashford were all born in Manchester and its environs; Ruben Loftus-Cheek was born in London; and our very own Dele Alli was born in Milton Keynes and has an English mother (as does Kyle Walker). What really undermines your point is that, of all the 'black' players in the England squad, only Raheem Sterling was born outside of the UK. So the player that most people agree was a major weak point of the England team is the only 'black' player not born in the UK.

Now, if you truly believe that you would never discriminate against anyone based on their skin colour, then I would strongly suggest you consider your words, and more importantly, your thinking regarding this. You may not have believed that your point was about race, but it actually was. Your entire point is posited on the idea that black people are 'different', that either they inherently possess greater physical prowess than non-blacks, or that they keep their cultural background different. This is the quintessence of racism. It is only a short step from considering black people differently to treating black people differently. You may never take that step. But then again, you may. Given the wrong circumstances, if those thoughts exist, then they could eventually be acted upon. Someone who considers themselves non-racist would deal with that.

If you still believe that race does play a role in the way a human being develops... well, there's little that can be said, really.

 

[rez9000]

You left out Columbia. The problem is we were drawn against these teams and did what we had to do to win one way or another. I get you're playing Devils advocate, but in footballing terms this is the best England fans have felt since 1996 when the real meaning of "Football's coming home" was meant.

I just hope we beat Belgium on Saturday and win our final game of the World Cup.

I wouldn't bother, @TheBlueRooster , @Monkey boy doesn't like Southgate and that's the end of the matter as far as he's concerned....

 

[Amo]

Yes, but my point was not about race. I just mentioned that in athletics its people with immigrant background who are doing it well for England/UK. My point was more like, how well would you do it in football/sports without immigrants, and whats the reason for England not doing too well in football after all (?). Its not a class thing in Scandinavia. You're right. Scandinavia doesn't have class based societies anymore anyway. In Norway you are more or less middle class or rich now a days..

Classless societies and Scandinavia. Hah. Sweden is classless? Denmark is classless? Next step is to call Scandinavia socialist.

Norway is a special case, obviously, and even it has prominent (albiet less stark) class lines. Have you been to rougher areas of Oslo? I concede that they're not as bad as parts of London but they're not pretty.

 

[Marty]

Yes, but my point was not about race. I just mentioned that in athletics its people with immigrant background who are doing it well for England/UK. My point was more like, how well would you do it in football/sports without immigrants, and whats the reason for England not doing too well in football after all (?). Its not a class thing in Scandinavia. You're right. Scandinavia doesn't have class based societies anymore anyway. In Norway you are more or less middle class or rich now a days..

That's just not true and you know it. Ever been to Holmlia, Romsås etc. around Oslo? They are not remotely middle class areas. There are less well off areas in all the major cities.

And how well would Norway do today without Joshua King, Elabdellaoui or the Elyounoussi cousins? A disproportionately large number of Norwegian footballers have immigrant heritage, and not just at elite level.

This isn't an argument you can win.


For the record for others on here, the Scandinavian countries and Norway in particular are social democracies. Not socialist. And yes, there is a big difference.

 

[Monkey boy]

Still spouting horse manure, eh? Can't face a proper argument though, can you, petal?

Quite frankly I haven’t got the time or the energy to “argue” with anyone these days and especially with somebody that likes to throw insults that add nothing to the debate. I’ve said my piece, you’ve said yours and hey ho we don’t agree. I thought we decided to leave it? Yet you feel the need to keep quoting my posts and tagging me in stuff? What’s all that about? Do you like the attention or something?

Anyway here’s another good article on the matter which pretty much outlines the original point that I was making in that we got extremely lucky with the draw and only managed to beat the teams that we should have beaten and that this campaign really doesn’t deserve the fanfare and heroes welcome that it’s gettting. But keep tagging me if you please and ending your posts with amazing insults like name calling ? as it makes you look so hard.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44808192

 

[Dr Benson]

That's just not true and you know it. Ever been to Holmlia, Romsås etc. around Oslo? They are not remotely middle class areas. There are less well off areas in all the major cities.

And how well would Norway do today without Joshua King, Elabdellaoui or the Elyounoussi cousins? A disproportionately large number of Norwegian footballers have immigrant heritage, and not just at elite level.

This isn't an argument you can win.


For the record for others on here, the Scandinavian countries and Norway in particular are social democracies. Not socialist. And yes, there is a big difference.

Was my point about race or was my point about Englands underperformance in football?

 

[Dr Benson]

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and accept that you don't mean to be racist.

However, you ARE being racist, whether you wish to be or not and I'll explain why:

First off, the term 'Jamaicans and other blacks' is racist. You are lumping together a diverse group of individuals from a massive selection of different, discrete cultures into one grouping. It would be like me saying that the majority of Europeans are 'Norwegians and other whites'.

Secondly, you make the assumption that people who describe themselves as black are inherently better at sports than those who describe themselves otherwise. That's the same as saying that all 'black' men have large penises. It is ascribing a characteristic to a group based on the colour of their skin.

The reason that there are a larger proportion of people who would describe themselves as black in the sports set up of this country is because minority ethnic groups, as a result of socio-economic and political factors outside of their control are, generally speaking, poorer than the indigenous population. This poverty restricts their opportunities. Of those restricted options, sport is the one that is often turned to.

The other reason that England (and France) have so many 'black' players is because we have higher proportions of minority ethnic populations compared to other countries because of our colonial past. Because of that, we have connections with parts of the world with 'black' ethnicities (for us, the Caribbean, for the French, Africa). As a result, the immigration we have seen has principally been from those regions of the world. It's also the reason why there are large numbers of people from Indian, Pakistani and Bangladeshi heritage in the UK compared to other European countries.

It is the combination of those two factors that has led to there being a high proportion of 'black' players in the England squad and in the English league. Not because black people are physically better or eat specific 'non-white' food. The vast majority of 'black' players in the current English set up were born in this country; two have an 'English' parent:

Ashley Young was born in Hertfordshire; Kyle Walker, Danny Rose, and Fabian Delph were all born in Yorkshire; Trent Alexander-Arnold was born in Liverpool; Jesse Lingard, Danny Welbeck, and Marcus Rashford were all born in Manchester and its environs; Ruben Loftus-Cheek was born in London; and our very own Dele Alli was born in Milton Keynes and has an English mother (as does Kyle Walker). What really undermines your point is that, of all the 'black' players in the England squad, only Raheem Sterling was born outside of the UK. So the player that most people agree was a major weak point of the England team is the only 'black' player not born in the UK.

Now, if you truly believe that you would never discriminate against anyone based on their skin colour, then I would strongly suggest you consider your words, and more importantly, your thinking regarding this. You may not have believed that your point was about race, but it actually was. Your entire point is posited on the idea that black people are 'different', that either they inherently possess greater physical prowess than non-blacks, or that they keep their cultural background different. This is the quintessence of racism. It is only a short step from considering black people differently to treating black people differently. You may never take that step. But then again, you may. Given the wrong circumstances, if those thoughts exist, then they could eventually be acted upon. Someone who considers themselves non-racist would deal with that.

If you still believe that race does play a role in the way a human being develops... well, there's little that can be said, really.

My point was easy to understand. England as a country is not doing too well in football and in sports in general... My question was why..

 

[Gassin's finest]

I don`t want to be a dickhead or provoke. That`s not my intention. Don`t get me wrong. But I`m thinking about Englands lack of results and performance in football and in sports in general. If we compare England with Germany, France, Spain, and Italy, England should be quite comparable when it comes to population, the popularity of football in the country and your football league. England have the best or the second best (?) football league in the world. But, there`s an under-performance from the national team in general. (Though this tournament wasn`t that bad, off course..) But,in sports in general. In athletics it hasn`t been that bad. But, more or less it`s jamaicans and other blacks from former colonies jumping and running for England, isn`t it? In cycling there have been some ethnic english/british doing well. I`ll give you that. But in general sports, no. So, whats the reason? Is this a debate in England? I might sound like a foolish idiot, but I`m thinking about diet. Is british diet too unhealthy? Could that be a plausible explanation factor? I can`t think about another reason, even though it might sound silly. 1966 was the last time, and even worse, 1990 was the last time you managed to go to a semifinal. And since 1990 Premier League/old 1.divison has been one of the three best leagues in the world. And as I said, I don`t want to be a prick, I`m just lifting up some thoughts and questions here..

Our football team regularly get to the last 8 of the world cup. We even won it once.
Our Rugby team regularly get to semi-finals and finals of the world cup.
We boss cycling.
We boss athletics.
We boss motorsports.
We boss hockey.
We're pretty good at cricket.
We're even starting to get pretty good at winter sports.

Britain are pretty damn good at sports if you ask me.

 

[Marty]

Our football team regularly get to the last 8 of the world cup. We even won it once.
Our Rugby team regularly get to semi-finals and finals of the world cup.
We boss cycling.
We boss athletics.
We boss motorsports.
We boss hockey.
We're pretty good at cricket.
We're even starting to get pretty good at winter sports.

Britain are pretty damn good at sports if you ask me.

Ah yes but you boss shit hockey, not ice hockey. Doesn't count.

 

[Gassin's finest]

Was my point about race or was my point about Englands underperformance in football?

You brought it into it mate, so it's going to be a talking point.

 

[spursfan77]

Only Iran created less goal scoring chances from open play than us. That’s a bit shit isn’t it.

 

[Gassin's finest]

Only Iran created less goal scoring chances from open play than us. That’s a bit shit isn’t it.

But unlike Iran we were able to score from other areas and got to the semi final. So no, it wasn't shit.

 

[spursfan77]

But unlike Iran we were able to score from other areas and got to the semi final. So no, it wasn't shit.

Well done on twisting my words. Not being able to score from open play compared to other teams was poor. There’s no escaping that.

 

[Gb160]

Got tickets to see Justin Timberlake tomorrow night and he's putting the game on before his show at The O2, has the potential to be a very good night, atmosphere in there will be rocking if we win!

So how was the gig Nick?