The fans should force Enic to sack levy.

[joey55]

You are all talking like other clubs don't do it.

Are you all that fucking Naive to think that this doesn't happen at clubs day in, day out?

Jol wasn't going to turn things around. It was OBVIOUS he'd lost the dressing room for whatever reason and he only had Keane and maybe Dawson TRYING to play for him. Do you really think that's because we flirted with another club's manager? Lets face it, if Jol HAD the dressing room, after we 'got caught out' they'd be playing to keep him in a job and they just weren't.

The only place we were going this season was down and no matter how much we adored Jol, it was obvious he wasn't going to turn it around.

I don't understand how we as a team have manged the highest amount of tckes this season, scored the second highest number of goals and made the 4th highest amount of passes if they aren't trying! What the hell does that say about the efforts of players on other teams. I've read fans try and use all sorts a technical analysis for why we are conceding so many and that we defend so deep etc, yet the average Prem keeper has to deal with 10.6 shots per game, but Robbo only 8.2. This is the 5th lowest in the Prem. How on earth are we limiting teams to comparitively so few chances, if we defend so badly and don't try? Also have we not had both possession and territorial advantages in all but 3 of our games? Again very odd for a team that isn't trying.

Personally I'd look at the situation and see we are creating and scoring more than other teams, we are dominating games, giving away few chances, but conceding goals. That would suggest to me we are dealing very poorly with the comparitively few chances we do give away and therefore the answer and cause of our problems can be found by looking at each of our goals. If you do that you'll see goals that could have been defended better, but no more than other teams with a similar standard of defender. But what you'll also see is a constant run of poor individual errors and mistakes. Things that won't be put right on the training ground. Not tactical mistakes (they are there but no more so than for other teams), but stupid errors. Not a case of team not trying, but a case of players switching off at key moments and making poor decisions. And this is no more highlighted than in games when Dawson and Kaboul play together. I'm pretty sure they are the Prems youngest CB pairing and therefore it is understandable that they are also the most mistake prone pairing conceding an average of 3 goals per game, the worst in the Prem (I think.) There is no point banging on about Jol anymore, but people shouldn't distort history. I'm sure evey fault you see is true and was there, but you need to be comparitive with other Premiership sides. I seriously doubt you were looking our for players of other teams with their heads down, or gasping for breath or counting how many times teams rip through their defence.

 

[SpurSince57]

We actually played a good deal better against Fulham, Arsenal, United, Liverpool, Bolton and Blackburn than in the corresponding features last season.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Yes, he installed the fans' favourite, having sacked the incumbent just before a cup semi-final. And whilst I was almightily glad to see the back of a Gooner **** who should never have been appointed in the first place, the timing of his departure could hardly have been more unfortunate. Or perhaps Levy didn't want to risk us beating the Scum under Graham's command?

Hoddle should have gone at the end of the 2003-2003 season. Instead, he was handed £13m (half of it spent on the useless Postiga) and sacked after six games, leaving us to struggle through the rest of the season under Pleaty. That's really decisive. We had the Trappatoni farce, the Santini fiasco, and then Jol turned things around. But not, apparently, enough for some, despite achieving fifth twice, so, totally out of the blue, off to Sevilla we go. Anyone who thinks that comedy show and the inevitable undermining of Jol didn't have a major effect on his and the team's performances is mad or stupid, or both. But let's blame the nasty tabloids and the Beeb, eh?

So who was leaking the anti-Jol stories that surfaced in the press, and on here (via COYS and FTL) immediately after Ramosgate? What sort of club briefs against its own coach via tame journos? This one, apparently. Only the strategy backfired, with the press and pundits largely taking Jol's side. It really is a bit rich attacking the media when elements at the club started supplying the journos with ammunition.

So we have a new head coach who may well be better than Jol, assuming he hangs around more than a couple of seasons before a better offer comes along. To that end, our club has been made a laughing-stock and results have suffered badly. And one image which is going to remain with me a very long time is Levy and that **** Kemsley smirking at one another as things went tits-up against Getafe.

Wonderful stuff. I'm sure we should all be very grateful. Perhaps the club should bring out another commemorative shirt to rip us off for.

SS

I think you are wrongly differenciating between the press taking Jols side and the default "lets criticise the boardroom fat cats as hardly any punters will simpathise" angle. Do you really think the press give a flying fuck if another millionaire manager bytes the bullet. They slagged off the board and then spent the next 5 weeks claiming every draw or defeat could/would/should be Jols last. The press's only interest was in selling papers at Jol's/our/the club's expense.


Joey

How have your Google shares performed compared to spurs shares over the last 3 years ?(I've had spurs shares for a long time and added some more in the mid & late niteies and have to say they have performed better than the other half dozen shares I've bought over the last 10 years - but I don't profess to being a great share dabbler).

Was it the fact that we clearly needed some quality experience in the summer and we went for more quality potential or was it something else that changed your perspective on ENIC/Levy ?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I don't understand how we as a team have manged the highest amount of tckes this season, scored the second highest number of goals and made the 4th highest amount of passes if they aren't trying! What the hell does that say about the efforts of players on other teams. I've read fans try and use all sorts a technical analysis for why we are conceding so many and that we defend so deep etc, yet the average Prem keeper has to deal with 10.6 shots per game, but Robbo only 8.2. This is the 5th lowest in the Prem. How on earth are we limiting teams to comparitively so few chances, if we defend so badly and don't try? Also have we not had both possession and territorial advantages in all but 3 of our games? Again very odd for a team that isn't trying.

Personally I'd look at the situation and see we are creating and scoring more than other teams, we are dominating games, giving away few chances, but conceding goals. That would suggest to me we are dealing very poorly with the comparitively few chances we do give away and therefore the answer and cause of our problems can be found by looking at each of our goals. If you do that you'll see goals that could have been defended better, but no more than other teams with a similar standard of defender. But what you'll also see is a constant run of poor individual errors and mistakes. Things that won't be put right on the training ground. Not tactical mistakes (they are there but no more so than for other teams), but stupid errors. Not a case of team not trying, but a case of players switching off at key moments and making poor decisions. And this is no more highlighted than in games when Dawson and Kaboul play together. I'm pretty sure they are the Prems youngest CB pairing and therefore it is understandable that they are also the most mistake prone pairing conceding an average of 3 goals per game, the worst in the Prem (I think.) There is no point banging on about Jol anymore, but people shouldn't distort history. I'm sure evey fault you see is true and was there, but you need to be comparitive with other Premiership sides. I seriously doubt you were looking our for players of other teams with their heads down, or gasping for breath or counting how many times teams rip through their defence.

Joey, I agree with a chunk of this and it also applied last year (individual errors). I don't think Jol lost the dressing room (certainly not the players he was picking) but he was culpable in some of our downfall. He consistantly picked Dawson over the more experienced Gardner & Rocha last season (ironically until Getafe). He refused to drop Robinson. He refused to play the ultra experienced and competitive Davids. He consistantly played players out of position when not having to always. It is not Dawsons age that is the problem it is his poor and slow reading of the game and speed of reaction. He is not adroit of brain or foot.
He will never be the player people want him to be. He never ever varied his starting formation beyond asking keane to drop a little (which is like saying Keano I want you to annoy the fuck our of our fans and get in the way of your teamates). He chose to drop our most experienced player Lee (the only player who had played in a CL semi apart from davids) for Ekotto for our biggest game of the season (LC semi) ??? His substitutions ranged from the banal to the ridiculous at times. And worst of all we weren't coached to compete with the top 4. Players were allowed to put in less than 100% effort (particularly the strikers/lennon etc).

I think doubts about his own ability reflected in his treatment of Kanoute & Davids. He should have been confident enough to handle Kanoute & Davids and get the best out of them as the loss of both weakened our team considerably.

I don't think he was terrible, I think he was a good coach with a strong squad. But I think the squad baled him out more than vice versa.

 

[joey55]

SS




Joey

How have your Google shares performed compared to spurs shares over the last 3 years ?(I've had spurs shares for a long time and added some more in the mid & late niteies and have to say they have performed better than the other half dozen shares I've bought over the last 10 years - but I don't profess to being a great share dabbler).

Was it the fact that we clearly needed some quality experience in the summer and we went for more quality potential or was it something else that changed your perspective on ENIC/Levy ?

My Google have done incredibly well. I bought them the day of the floatation and they have since risen 700%. At the time Spurs shares were about 30p so i'd have probably made about 500% on those as well. I have very limited experience of dabbling in the stock market myself, but I work as a strategy consultant and at the time had just sold my apartment so had some money and was working on a project involving the "search" business and therefore had a very good idea of the true value of Google.

But I wanted to spread the risk a little so looked at Tottenham. That is where all my theories of the transfer policy etc that i bang on about came from. I basically noticed that despite the fact we'd spent the last 18 months off loading old players on huge wages and bringing in younger players (ie Defoe, Zamora, Brown and others from around th at time) whose value wouldn't go down, our share price continued to fall, which was in line with the sector (football market) at the time. It just seemed that our price was low simply because people weren't investing in football and didn't reflect our financial efficiancy. I think at the time the club was valued at about £40 million or something stupidly low. As long as we stuck to the developing pattern in our transfer dealings over the coming years, there was little chance I was going to lose money. But anyway friends convinced me to just invest in Google which is what i did.

As for the summer and my change of opinion on Levy/Enic, it largelly came from looking at the figures. Enic intial investments, what they were potentially worth in the coming year and what they might be worth if we develop as Arsenal have over the last 5-10 years. It just doesn't make a great deal of sense for Enic to really chase CL football.

 

[N10toN17]

Sorry were you there? If not perhaps you don't know what I am talking about MUPPET

I have a season ticket thanks, West stand all the way :clap:

Was I where? You're not making much sense are you chappy. :duh:

 

[N10toN17]

I was in block 35 for one game, real nice crowd. Not a good word to say about anyone except the ex-employee who had just pocketed £5m of his beloved club.

You're a disgrace, calling fellow season ticket holders pondlife, because we happen to be in parklane, and just happen to sing and support our team. Hang your head in shame, supporters disagree on many things, it's what this forum is for matey, some of us are very unhappy with Levy and as season ticket holders have every right to express that opinion, who the fuck do you think you are.


Park Lane season ticket holder and proud of it.

 

[Legend10]

You're a disgrace, calling fellow season ticket holders pondlife, because we happen to be in parklane, and just happen to sing and support our team. Hang your head in shame, supporters disagree on many things, it's what this forum is for matey, some of us are very unhappy with Levy and as season ticket holders have every right to express that opinion, who the fuck do you think you are.


Park Lane season ticket holder and proud of it.

Wasn't it you who said that people who are pro Levy are so out of touch and don't echo the opinions of real fans and ST holders like you?

Or did you just want us to be so impressed that you have a ST?

Well your really not that unique mate, there are another 26000 of us and no we're not all anti Levy, in fact there are loads of us who are very pro Levy, and loads of us again who wanted Jol sacked earlier than he was. So your personal opinion isn't that of all ST holders or people who are in touch with the general feeling, it's just your opinion as ours is ours.

See you at Boro!

Or is just a home ST you have?

If so, you must be so out of touch.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

My Google have done incredibly well. I bought them the day of the floatation and they have since risen 700%. At the time Spurs shares were about 30p so i'd have probably made about 500% on those as well. I have very limited experience of dabbling in the stock market myself, but I work as a strategy consultant and at the time had just sold my apartment so had some money and was working on a project involving the "search" business and therefore had a very good idea of the true value of Google.

But I wanted to spread the risk a little so looked at Tottenham. That is where all my theories of the transfer policy etc that i bang on about came from. I basically noticed that despite the fact we'd spent the last 18 months off loading old players on huge wages and bringing in younger players (ie Defoe, Zamora, Brown and others from around th at time) whose value wouldn't go down, our share price continued to fall, which was in line with the sector (football market) at the time. It just seemed that our price was low simply because people weren't investing in football and didn't reflect our financial efficiancy. I think at the time the club was valued at about £40 million or something stupidly low. As long as we stuck to the developing pattern in our transfer dealings over the coming years, there was little chance I was going to lose money. But anyway friends convinced me to just invest in Google which is what i did.

As for the summer and my change of opinion on Levy/Enic, it largelly came from looking at the figures. Enic intial investments, what they were potentially worth in the coming year and what they might be worth if we develop as Arsenal have over the last 5-10 years. It just doesn't make a great deal of sense for Enic to really chase CL football.

Do you mean the value wouldn't have increased exponentially enough despite arsenalesque success longevity ? The stadium development must be a factor you considered too ?

 

[Legend10]

I don't understand how we as a team have manged the highest amount of tckes this season, scored the second highest number of goals and made the 4th highest amount of passes if they aren't trying! What the hell does that say about the efforts of players on other teams. I've read fans try and use all sorts a technical analysis for why we are conceding so many and that we defend so deep etc, yet the average Prem keeper has to deal with 10.6 shots per game, but Robbo only 8.2. This is the 5th lowest in the Prem. How on earth are we limiting teams to comparitively so few chances, if we defend so badly and don't try? Also have we not had both possession and territorial advantages in all but 3 of our games? Again very odd for a team that isn't trying.

Personally I'd look at the situation and see we are creating and scoring more than other teams, we are dominating games, giving away few chances, but conceding goals. That would suggest to me we are dealing very poorly with the comparitively few chances we do give away and therefore the answer and cause of our problems can be found by looking at each of our goals. If you do that you'll see goals that could have been defended better, but no more than other teams with a similar standard of defender. But what you'll also see is a constant run of poor individual errors and mistakes. Things that won't be put right on the training ground. Not tactical mistakes (they are there but no more so than for other teams), but stupid errors. Not a case of team not trying, but a case of players switching off at key moments and making poor decisions. And this is no more highlighted than in games when Dawson and Kaboul play together. I'm pretty sure they are the Prems youngest CB pairing and therefore it is understandable that they are also the most mistake prone pairing conceding an average of 3 goals per game, the worst in the Prem (I think.) There is no point banging on about Jol anymore, but people shouldn't distort history. I'm sure evey fault you see is true and was there, but you need to be comparitive with other Premiership sides. I seriously doubt you were looking our for players of other teams with their heads down, or gasping for breath or counting how many times teams rip through their defence.

I really can't be bothered to go into it but I think most of that is nonsense

 

[SpurSince57]

SS

I think you are wrongly differenciating between the press taking Jols side and the default "lets criticise the boardroom fat cats as hardly any punters will simpathise" angle. Do you really think the press give a flying fuck if another millionaire manager bytes the bullet. They slagged off the board and then spent the next 5 weeks claiming every draw or defeat could/would/should be Jols last. The press's only interest was in selling papers at Jol's/our/the club's expense.

Well of course their interest was selling papers (and that includes the broadsheets too), but we certainly gave them all the ammunition they required and then some. Someone—and I suspect Kemsley, whom I also, quite seriously, suspect was the mysterious and rather unpleasant 'Wan Danny Thomas'—was actively feeding their journo contacts anti-Jol stuff.

Amazing, isn't it, that we didn't have a whisper of serious dissatisfaction with Jol from the so-called 'ITKs' until the day after 'Wan Danny Thomas' told us we'd hear things to change our opinion of him?

I think we have to say it's water under the bridge now; I have one or two misgivings about Ramos, but he is the only member of the beauty parade other than Mourinho that I think could be an improvement on Jol. Right result, hopefully, but the way it was achieved leaves a sour taste in the mouth. I'd hoped Levy had learned his lesson with Hoddle. As I said above, if he'd acted decisively in June, there would have been a riot (insofar as you can have one on message boards), but if we were up there in the top six now we'd all be saying 'Well done, Daniel, tough choice, but you made it.'

As someone on the front page reminded me, Bill Nicholson once said there's about a foot between a pat on the back and a kick up the arse.

 

[roosh]

the last thing that we need now is for the chairman to get the bullet.We need stability, we don't want a new chairman coming in and not delivering on Levy's promises to Ramos.

We need to just draw a line under the whole thing and try and move on from here. Not saying that the way Jol was treated should be forgotten but we need stability now.

 

[roosh]

So Levy should be totally beyond criticism?

We may have the right man for the job, but the way we went about it has made the club look utterly ridiculous. You're OK with that?

As AG said, if Jol wasn't good enough at the start of this season, he wasn't good enough at the end of last season; if Levy had wielded the axe then, as he should have done with Hoddle in 2003, and gone out and got Ramos in June, there would have been hell to pay on this and every other board, but if we were now sitting pretty on 20-odd points no-one would be complaining. The way it's been done makes it look as if the board panicked after two poor performances, and I don't think that was the case at all. I'm pretty sure something happened over the summer that we've not heard about yet.

undoubtedly, the board did not have the balls to sack Jol after he secured us back to back 5th place finishes. What I imagine they did was make his position impossible, with such targets as CL, or you're out.Also perhaps, not providing him with the players he needed to succeed e.g. DMF & experienced CB. Create an atmosphere at the club that isn't supportive of the manager that permeates throughout the organisation [club].

once the results start going against him [after 2 games say], get caught talking to a potential successor to completely undermine the manager. Give the incumbent the minimum acceptable, 10 games in charge, then change manager.

the absolute shambles that was made of getting the new man in can be put down to:
- poor results
- poor handling of the situation
- but ultimately having the clubs best interests at heart therefore making it forgiveable.

sounds like a bit of a conspiracy theory but don't be foolish enough to think that its not beyond them.

 

[joey55]

Do you mean the value wouldn't have increased exponentially enough despite arsenalesque success longevity ? The stadium development must be a factor you considered too ?

Well firstly i don't think Enic ever had any plans to run the club as business for profit in the way the American Sports franchises do. It just isn't the business they are in. In simple terms it would be a case of buy do up and sell, as they have done with their sports and media interests in the past. So considering the % returns they will see on their investment if they get the kind of offer they are looking for, then yes is the answer to your first question. To develop the stadium and have sustained CL qualification over a period time as Arsenal have done is obvioulsy a further long term committment. When you look at the likely % returns on that committment and compare them to the % returns they are likely to see if they sell within the next year or so, then its very unlikely they'd want to hang round. And that is without even taking into account in reality (from a non fan point of view) we are very unlikley to qualify for the CL for a sustained period of time, in fact, being brutally honest, we are not that likely to even qualify once in the next 5 years.

We have to take into account how things have changed since Enic took us over. The Abramovich money has essentially stolen one of the CL places they'd have seen as being up for grabs. On top of that, rather than make CL qualification more open, having 4 teams from the Prem qualify has in fact made it harder for other teams to break through (it has in fact resulted in a top 4 mini league). When Enic made their initial investment having just seen an extra CL place be made available and before Abramovich. They'd have probably looked at the situation and thought we can take one of those spots (the infastructure was certainly there) and probably in time get a 4 or 5 times return on our investment. We now look at the league table and see we have finished 5th twice in a row, so it seems we are close to reaching our goal. But Enic will probably look at the situation and think it seemed easier to establish ourselves as a CL club 5 years ago than is does today, despite where we've finished in the league. Gone our the days when a team like Leeds can finish in the top 3.

The goal posts have changed and the top 4 are now incredibly solid, but even more significant is the money in the game even without the CL. The huge TV deals and growth of the Prem in international markets means that ENIC can achieve the sort of returns they initially hoped to, even with CL football. They were in the right time at the right place. Realistically could they or any other board do the same again? In many ways the blazed a trail that wont be repeated. With all the foreign money from the US, Russia, Thailand and where ever else, is it possible for a club to rebuild on the principals that served us so well? The likes of City, Villa, Pompey, Spam etc and all the money they have has put pay to thosedays. A couple of years ago we were buying the likes of Lennon for a £1million and Villa couldn't even afford to keep Erik Bakke on loan from Leeds. Spam were our feeder cluba nd now they are forcing the price of purchases up.

As for the stadium development, it would just be considered part of the clubs intrinsic value. Enic aren't going to accept an offer that doesn't take into account the potential to develop a new stadium, the new revenue stream this would add and of course the work they've already done to that end.

 

[N10toN17]

Wasn't it you who said that people who are pro Levy are so out of touch and don't echo the opinions of real fans and ST holders like you?

Or did you just want us to be so impressed that you have a ST?

Well your really not that unique mate, there are another 26000 of us and no we're not all anti Levy, in fact there are loads of us who are very pro Levy, and loads of us again who wanted Jol sacked earlier than he was. So your personal opinion isn't that of all ST holders or people who are in touch with the general feeling, it's just your opinion as ours is ours.

See you at Boro!

Or is just a home ST you have?

If so, you must be so out of touch.

Never said real fans, fans who don't go are real fans, if they love the club, I said the pro levy brigade were out of touch with the supporters around me in Park lane, I didn't vouch for the rest of the stadium, but if you look at other Spurs boards and having chatted to a good many supporters down at the ground many more are upset with him than happy with him, I've a right to state that opinion.

I'd most certainly never call you pondlife because I disagree with you, you seem to be overlooking that.