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joey55

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2005
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IMO our coaching cost us CL football, rather than gaining us UEFA.

But then how do explain our results in comparison to Liverpools and Arsenals? It isn't fair to compare us with say Arsenal when our key players are injured. If you want to compare our results with those of Arseanls or Liverpools you can only do it when our key players are fit. For example of Leds is injured we don't have another world class CB, whilst Arsenal had Gallas and Toure. They didn't play a single game without either Gallas or Toure and played 21 with them both. Had we benefited from having Leds fit for every game, which is the equivalent of what Arseanl did, then averaging out from the 21 games he did play, it suggests we'd have finished on 68 pts last season and 74pts the season before. But even with Leds we weren't in strong as Arseanl yet we won more points. How can that be if the coaching is so bad? What does that say about Wenger, who many claim to be the best coach in the world?

To judge out coaching alongside teams like Arsenal you need to apply a realistic handicap (like in golf). Jol kicked Wengers ass over the last 2 seasons. When Jol had his genuine CL quality players fit (ie both Berbs and King playing), we averaged 2 pts per game, and this works out as 76 pts per season, which totally shits on both Arsenal and Liverpool last year. That is the problem we had, we were too reliant on certain players, whilst other squads had strength in depth in key positions. If our world class CB was injured we didn't have another, but Arsenal did. If Berbs got injured he was our only genius, whilst Arsenal had both Henry and RVP. If we swapped King for Gallas and Toure and Berbs for Henry and RVP, we'd have finished miles infront of Arsenal. The thing that cost us CL footbal, was not having enough genuine CL quality players. Arseanl had about 6 truely top class players, whilst we had 2. Therefore when they weren't fit we couldn't compete. When they were fit, we earned more points than them.
 

sloth

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2005
9,018
6,900
But then how do explain our results in comparison to Liverpools and Arsenals? It isn't fair to compare us with say Arsenal when our key players are injured. If you want to compare our results with those of Arseanls or Liverpools you can only do it when our key players are fit. For example of Leds is injured we don't have another world class CB, whilst Arsenal had Gallas and Toure. They didn't play a single game without either Gallas or Toure and played 21 with them both. Had we benefited from having Leds fit for every game, which is the equivalent of what Arseanl did, then averaging out from the 21 games he did play, it suggests we'd have finished on 68 pts last season and 74pts the season before. But even with Leds we weren't in strong as Arseanl yet we won more points. How can that be if the coaching is so bad? What does that say about Wenger, who many claim to be the best coach in the world?

To judge out coaching alongside teams like Arsenal you need to apply a realistic handicap (like in golf). Jol kicked Wengers ass over the last 2 seasons. When Jol had his genuine CL quality players fit (ie both Berbs and King playing), we averaged 2 pts per game, and this works out as 76 pts per season, which totally shits on both Arsenal and Liverpool last year. That is the problem we had, we were too reliant on certain players, whilst other squads had strength in depth in key positions. If our world class CB was injured we didn't have another, but Arsenal did. If Berbs got injured he was our only genius, whilst Arsenal had both Henry and RVP. If we swapped King for Gallas and Toure and Berbs for Henry and RVP, we'd have finished miles infront of Arsenal. The thing that cost us CL footbal, was not having enough genuine CL quality players. Arseanl had about 6 truely top class players, whilst we had 2. Therefore when they weren't fit we couldn't compete. When they were fit, we earned more points than them.

The flaw being that you assume that every player comes with a static number of qualities. In reality, as you know, every player develops his qualities. Wenger is the past master at getting good youngsters to blossom and fulfil their potential.

It's impossible to judge Jol however, for all we know he did get his players fulfilling their potential, it's just their optimum wasn't that high. Or it may be that he didn't get as much out of them as, for example, a Wenger would have.

There's no way of knowing and so once again the seemingly objective gets reduced to the subjective.

I believe Jol lacked the passion or rigour to be a top top coach. His rounded (no pun intended) personality which made him loved by fans and media indicates to me a lack of obsession with the game. By all accounts his training sessions were uninspiring, I think the players lack conditioning and I certainly never heard that he scoured the world to get in the best back-room staff.

This coupled with a disinterest in the finer points of tactics and strategy combines to make Jol a second tier coach.

I believe Ramos to be a top tier coach like Wenger, Mourinho, SAF and Benitez.

But hey, that's just my opinion... lol.
 

joey55

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2005
9,675
3,090
The flaw being that you assume that every player comes with a static number of qualities. In reality, as you know, every player develops his qualities. Wenger is the past master at getting good youngsters to blossom and fulfil their potential.

It's impossible to judge Jol however, for all we know he did get his players fulfilling their potential, it's just their optimum wasn't that high. Or it may be that he didn't get as much out of them as, for example, a Wenger would have.

There's no way of knowing and so once again the seemingly objective gets reduced to the subjective.

I believe Jol lacked the passion or rigour to be a top top coach. His rounded (no pun intended) personality which made him loved by fans and media indicates to me a lack of obsession with the game. By all accounts his training sessions were uninspiring, I think the players lack conditioning and I certainly never heard him scouring the world to get in the best back-room staff.

This coupled with a disinterest in the finer points of tactics and strategy combines to make Jol a second tier coach.

I believe Ramos to be a top tier coach like Wenger, Mourinho, SAF and Benitez.

But hey, that's just my opinion... lol.

But what is that opinion based on? You've been making positive sounds about Ramos since the story broke about us meeting with him at the start of the season, yet you've demonstrated little knowledge of his past and never really said why you think he'd be a good coach for us.

Also, rather than attempt to explain how Jol (a second tier coach), managed to obtain a higher points total, when Leds was fit, than Arsene Wenger, you've just tried to point out Jols faults. That is ignoring the facts and believing your own rhetoric (something you accussed me of doing). It's all about being comparative, which people have in general failed to do. Yes Jol makes mistakes and you've probably noted several and correctly. But don't believe that it makes him a poor coach. If you watch other "top" coaches you'd see similar mistakes. For example, if Wenger didn't make mistakes, or Benitez didn't make mistakes, then how do explain the fact thay only finished on 8 pts more than us last season? Considering the superiority if their squads, surley that isn't enough? It just seems that you've spotted some faults and got hung up on them and lost sight of what really has happened over the last 2 seasons. Is it not a simpe case of you over complicating the situation. At least the argument that injuries to key players cost us can be backed up with significant data (over two seasons). Whilst your theories of poor tactics, conditioning and staff are pretty hard to substantiate.
 

gibbs131

Banned
May 20, 2005
8,870
11
But what is that opinion based on? You've been making positive sounds about Ramos since the story broke about us meeting with him at the start of the season, yet you've demonstrated little knowledge of his past and never really said why you think he'd be a good coach for us.

Also, rather than attempt to explain how Jol (a second tier coach), managed to obtain a higher points total, when Leds was fit, than Arsene Wenger, you've just tried to point out Jols faults. That is ignoring the facts and believing your own rhetoric (something you accussed me of doing). It's all about being comparative, which people have in general failed to do. Yes Jol makes mistakes and you've probably noted several and correctly. But don't believe that it makes him a poor coach. If you watch other "top" coaches you'd see similar mistakes. For example, if Wenger didn't make mistakes, or Benitez didn't make mistakes, then how do explain the fact thay only finished on 8 pts more than us last season? Considering the superiority if their squads, surley that isn't enough? It just seems that you've spotted some faults and got hung up on them and lost sight of what really has happened over the last 2 seasons. Is it not a simpe case of you over complicating the situation. At least the argument that injuries to key players cost us can be backed up with significant data (over two seasons). Whilst your theories of poor tactics, conditioning and staff are pretty hard to substantiate.

Was Jol the only coach at Spurs? I am pro Jol. I can't even mention "you know who" without getting threads deleted or the clique messing with me.

IMO if Jol had better help from the ground up we would have been 4th and the young players we have got in over the past 3 years would have developed into better players to help us get 4th

And more importantly Jol would still be with us and the board would not be tainted.

I do however think that the board got in the right man if Jol had to go (which he didnt, CC and Seggers did)
 

joey55

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2005
9,675
3,090
Was Jol the only coach at Spurs? I am pro Jol. I can't even mention "you know who" without getting threads deleted or the clique messing with me.

IMO if Jol had better help from the ground up we would have been 4th and the young players we have got in over the past 3 years would have developed into better players to help us get 4th

And more importantly Jol would still be with us and the board would not be tainted.

I do however think that the board got in the right man if Jol had to go (which he didnt, CC and Seggers did)

I still haven't seen any sound argument as to why people think that. There are numerous examples of coaches that have been very successful at previous clubs and then failed at the next job. After this failure it's usually pretty simple to analyse why they failed and with hindsight it is often easy to see that these reasons should have been apparent before the appointment. Yet the trouble is, no one, even the board that appoint them, seems to want to look past anything other than the obvious positives, such as what the coach has won, or what improvements his previous clubs have seen in their league positions under him. They never seem to look at the conditions/environment in which this success was achieved and then judge how realistic it is to reproduce these conditions/environment at the new club. In the wrong circumstances any coach can fail, as proved by Wenger (arguably the best around). I just don't think people have looked at what Ramos has won and the style in which he has won it and thought "I want some of that at WHL." The reallity and history of the sport, suggests it relly isn't that simple.
 

gibbs131

Banned
May 20, 2005
8,870
11
Cups are better than stats. Winning cups and being ranked as top team in the world with a "minnow" team is also a nice stat.

Do you not rate him as a coach?
 

joey55

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2005
9,675
3,090
Cups are better than stats. Winning cups and being ranked as top team in the world with a "minnow" team is also a nice stat.

Do you not rate him as a coach?

I rate him highly as a coach, very highly. However, I'm not sure he's a wise appointment for us. I rated and still rate the coaching abilities of Javier Irureta, Hector Cuper and Raynald Denoueix. But they are all further proof to argument that good coaching isn't enough. It has to be good coaching in the right environment with the right players. Whatever Ramos has won, is totally insignificant to what Cappello has won, yet I'm very pleased we didn't appoint Cappello. I just think we need to look further than the CV.
 

sloth

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2005
9,018
6,900
But what is that opinion based on? You've been making positive sounds about Ramos since the story broke about us meeting with him at the start of the season, yet you've demonstrated little knowledge of his past and never really said why you think he'd be a good coach for us.

I know what he's achieved in the last three years in terms of trophies, challenging for La Liga and qualifying for CL. I have Sid Lowe to thank for Ramos' record previous to Sevilla and I'm swayed by his opinion that Ramos is/was the best coach in Spain. I'm not sure how I can demonstrate this knowledge beyond stating what it is and where it comes from.

Also, rather than attempt to explain how Jol (a second tier coach), managed to obtain a higher points total, when Leds was fit, than Arsene Wenger, you've just tried to point out Jols faults.
I work as a Trading Manager for a sports analyst company.

I can tell you for a fact that backing football teams which play away on Thursday is a value bet.

Of course that's patently absurd, we're finding something skewed because we're comparing the wrong bits of data and setting the wrong parameters in some way.

In the right hands data and statistics can make you a millionaire, in the wrong it can prove the earth flat and the moon made of cheese.

By picking and choosing the parameters you can turn Jol into the best coach the world has seen or into the biggest mug ever to have an opinion on the game.

The point I was making is that saying Wenger's players are world class and Jol's not is to ignore the fact that players develop. That's just one problem with your analysis, I'm sure there are plenty more (have you examined how both managers do without their top players for example? What's your control? Etc etc). So we come back to opinions, which is why i went on to state an opinion and didn't try to hide the fact that it was an opinion. You rightly point out that..
your theories of poor tactics, conditioning and staff are pretty hard to substantiate.
It is what I think, but I could be wrong.

I also think Ramos is a Tier One coach, but he's unproven in this league and could flop.

Finally, i think Jol was a good coach on flat seas with the wind behind him. I think he is a poor coach on choppier waters with gale blowing in his face.

It's my opinion, nothing more.
 

gibbs131

Banned
May 20, 2005
8,870
11
I rate him highly as a coach, very highly. However, I'm not sure he's a wise appointment for us. I rated and still rate the coaching abilities of Javier Irureta, Hector Cuper and Raynald Denoueix. But they are all further proof to argument that good coaching isn't enough. It has to be good coaching in the right environment with the right players. Whatever Ramos has won, is totally insignificant to what Cappello has won, yet I'm very pleased we didn't appoint Cappello. I just think we need to look further than the CV.

But isn't a good coach pretty much all we need when Ledders gets back?

IMO we have have had a CL quality squad skills wise for the past 3 seasons.

We were scuppered just as much by bad man management as we were by the "soft center" coaching staff.

Time will tell, and while I am angry at what happened to Jol, I don't think Ramos is a step backwards.

We need to do well in the Prem right? Well Sevilla beat us. We are a Prem team. He knows how to slam us Brits. Just look at what Sevilla did to Middlesborough. Once his mantra is drilled into the Spurs players, the away draw he got for us against them could be transformed into a win next season.
 

joey55

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2005
9,675
3,090
But isn't a good coach pretty much all we need when Ledders gets back?

IMO we have have had a CL quality squad skills wise for the past 3 seasons.

We were scuppered just as much by bad man management as we were by the "soft center" coaching staff.

Time will tell, and while I am angry at what happened to Jol, I don't think Ramos is a step backwards.

We need to do well in the Prem right? Well Sevilla beat us. We are a Prem team. He knows how to slam us Brits. Just look at what Sevilla did to Middlesborough. Once his mantra is drilled into the Spurs players, the away draw he got for us against them could be transformed into a win next season.

I don't think Ramos himself is a step backwards, but I think in appointing him the club itself have taken a step backwards. I don't think it is still a case of Leds getting back. That was the case under Jol and past results suggest support that argument. But Ramos is a different coach and for him to succeed and stamp his mantra on the team I think he needs the right players. I don't believe he can drill his mantra into our players. If it was as simple as a coach drilling his mantra into new players then the likes of the names I posted earlier would have gone on to do at their more recent clubs, what they had done at their past clubs. The environment has to be right.

Basically Ramos didn't beat Spurs or Boro. Teams coached by him did. That doesn't mean he can turn any team into a "Ramos" team. Like any coach, he needs the right players. I see little correlation between the group of players Ramos had at Seville and those he has just inherited. I see little correlation between the players Monchi liked to bring to Seville and Comolli has so far brought to Spurs. There will be cross over examples, but I'm talking the core group. For Ramos to be successful (ie top 4) I think it is going to need a lot of changes. I think there were other options (if they had to sack Jol) that made more sense, but perhaps didn't offer the same "tabloid" or "marketing" appeal Ramos did. Basically i see him as more of a Plc choice than a pure football choice.
 

gibbs131

Banned
May 20, 2005
8,870
11
Basically Ramos didn't beat Spurs or Boro. Teams coached by him did. That doesn't mean he can turn any team into a "Ramos" team. Like any coach, he needs the right players. I see little correlation between the group of players Ramos had at Seville and those he has just inherited. I see little correlation between the players Monchi liked to bring to Seville and Comolli has so far brought to Spurs. There will be cross over examples, but I'm talking the core group. For Ramos to be successful (ie top 4) I think it is going to need a lot of changes. I think there were other options (if they had to sack Jol) that made more sense, but perhaps didn't offer the same "tabloid" or "marketing" appeal Ramos did. Basically i see him as more of a Plc choice than a pure football choice.


Nope. RAMOS beat us. We had better players in most positions than his team.

One of their best players was a Spurs reject.

He can polish/nurture average players into bigger and better things.
 

joey55

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2005
9,675
3,090
Nope. RAMOS beat us. We had better players in most positions than his team.

One of their best players was a Spurs reject.

He can polish/nurture average players into bigger and better things.

No you don't see what i'm saying. It isn't about better players, it's about the right kind of players. Ramos had the players to play how he wanted. He can only get the best out of the players that suite his his system. It's the same with pretty much any coach, hence good coaches fail in the wrong circumstances. Football history is littered with Juande Ramos types. Why do you think that is? Surely you can't believe that it's as simple as a coach coming in and naturing players into what he wants them to be. The reason it sometimes goes wrong for top coaches when they change clubs is becasue they are unable to get the players they have inherrited to play as they'd like.

Ramos isn't going to come in and get Chimbonda playing like Alves, Lennon like Navas, JJ like Renato etc. Therefore it is going to be very difficult for him to stamp his mantra on the team. Look at any Spannish side and you'll see a core group of Latin (Spannish, Italian or South American) style players. This has a heavy influence on how a coach plays. We don't have that. If it was as simple as that Benitez (who won two titles in Spain) would have come into Liverpool and stamped his mantra. What happened was they finished on 58 pts and came 5th, which was the worst they've finished in a long time. Since then he's brought in 31 players for the first team and 16 of them have either been Spannish or South American. He's done that for a reason. He needs the right sort of players to play the brand of football he wants to. Ramos isn't going to be any different to that. It really isn't a case of him coming in an nuturing our players. It's going to mean big changes, which kind of flies in the face of the whole Director of Football system. Hence I think he's an odd appointment.
 
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