The Jol Comparisons

[PT]

This is not a poke at those who firmly believe we've arrived in Mecca since Ramos got his own key to WHL - more an observation of some comments that are littering this board throughout various threads.

It's human nature, I know, make comparisons and we've recently been so traumatised with events this season that we've got every excuse to hang up both management regimes for comparison.

My observations just lately have witnessed Martin Jol's tenure and his acomplishments being minisculed and ridiculed on occasion.

I prefer to remember where THFC was when Santini did a runner and Jol was given the steering wheel for a tumultous two seasons ending in Europe campaigns - twice.

Whilst Jol in the midst of time may be merely opined to be a stepping stone to Glory, I do feel that after two eventual away wins without a goal conceded, that we may be painting a tadge too much of a rosy picture before the paint's dried.

Your thoughts?

 

[nidge]

I agree PT and somethng else I would like to ask, how many people on this forum would have thought that we could get someone with the reputation Ramos has before Jol took us to 2 fifth placed finishes?

 

[Lanh]

I'm with the pair of you. I've been saying as much in the chatroom for a while now.

We can only judge Ramos as a better manager than Jol when he not only matches the accomplishments of Martin, but beats them. End of next season is when we'll really be able to see if he is the same, better or worse than the Godfather!

 

[Stoof]

I was actually tempted to make a very similar thread, PT.

There are a lot of threads - the O'Hara one being a prime example - that have these niggly little "well Jol wouldn't have done [●]" comments. It's all very well to note the differences in management styles, but to poo-poo the achievements of a manager that took an middling average squad to the heights of 4th (virtually) and 5th and back into Europe is to do him a huge disservice and one I will continue to correct.

Other sly digs about the Arsenal cup game and the Chelsea 3-3 have appeared again, after they've been justified over and OVER again.

Embrace the change but don't dismiss our past achievements with one of the best managers we've had in Modern Times.

 

[Has1978]

still haven´t chucked away my "I love Martin Jol" shirt. Would be a bit weird to actually wear it though.

 

[WhiteHart4Ever]

I have a lot of respect for Jol, best manager we've had the 16 years I've supported this club, and the results show that. I think he could have made us even better, if it wasnt for the lousy treatment the board gave him and the fact that he didnt get the players he wanted us to buy.

Having said that, Ramos looks even better. His record is very good, and the way he has turned around our DEFENSIVE performance is just pure class. A lot of the problems I had with Jol has been sorted out: The closing down, pushing up/down together as a team - so much better now. And his tactical choices during matches look very solid.

Still think it was a stupid think to do (in august) event though Ramos IS (potentially) a better manager, cos it has set us back AT LEAST a season and cost us a lot of money.

I'm really thankful for the job Jol did, and pissed at the board for letting him down. But I am confident that Ramos and Poyet are the right men to take us to the next level.

COME ONE YOU SPURS!!!

 

[DC_Boy]

Jol's memory should be honoured for sure, but comparisons will be made it's inevitable.

If JR had been an immediate flop, then there would have been comparisons made the other way

 

[PLTuck]

Totally agree. Like you said it's human nature to compare, but it has to be on even terms, which is impossible at the moment as Ramos has the full support of Levy and Comolli, whereas Jol didn't.

When we play in the 2nd round of the UEFA, we should all remember that it was Jol that got us there.

Now if Ramos can get us in the CL with the current squad as the board dictated to Jol, then maybe we can say that Ramos has done better.


I can remember when the bug eyed one done a runner, we weren't doing exactly brilliantly, yet we only just missed out on a UEFA place at the end of the season.

The 05/06 season carried the trend on and much of what is now being said about Ramos, was being said about Jol.

I just hope that if Ramos goes through a sticky period (which he will eventually. Law of averages and all that), the fans don't call for his head as quickly as they did with Jol.

Ramos is new to the league, and his ideas are new, so we will catch teams out. The 09/10 season, and to some degree next season, will be the real teller for me, when other managers have got more of a grip on his systems.

 

[bomberH]

I imagine Jol would have a much larger penis than Ramos, but Ramos' pubes would be neat and side parted.

Also, Ramos would be a bit of a charmer with the ladies, whereas Jol would walk up to one and let her know she's his bitch with a godfatheresque-if-you-don't-fuck-me-i'll-chop-your-tits-off smile.

So there you have it.

 

[truespur]

This is not a poke at those who firmly believe we've arrived in Mecca since Ramos got his own key to WHL - more an observation of some comments that are littering this board throughout various threads.

It's human nature, I know, make comparisons and we've recently been so traumatised with events this season that we've got every excuse to hang up both management regimes for comparison.

My observations just lately have witnessed Martin Jol's tenure and his acomplishments being minisculed and ridiculed on occasion.

I prefer to remember where THFC was when Santini did a runner and Jol was given the steering wheel for a tumultous two seasons ending in Europe campaigns - twice.

Whilst Jol in the midst of time may be merely opined to be a stepping stone to Glory, I do feel that after two eventual away wins without a goal conceded, that we may be painting a tadge too much of a rosy picture before the paint's dried.

Your thoughts?

(100 million. its the least i would expect)

he was naive with his tactics

 

[Stoof]

(100 million. its the least i would expect)

he was naive with his tactics

You see - it's assumptions like that which really show some fans up.

Stupid Football Manager game. It's really given fans the stupid idea that they even have a hundredth of the understanding of a real football manager.

This is a thread not to bash Jol - which you continually did, despite him masterminding a win against Chelsea as his highlight.

Your blatant anti-Jol agenda pissed me off during his tenure and now dares to flare up again. Come off your fucking high horse and praise the man that turned the fortunes of this club around.

 

[ChRiStOpHe]

I imagine Jol would have a much larger penis than Ramos, but Ramos' pubes would be neat and side parted.

Also, Ramos would be a bit of a charmer with the ladies, whereas Jol would walk up to one and let her know she's his bitch with a godfatheresque-if-you-don't-fuck-me-i'll-chop-your-tits-off smile.

So there you have it.

:lol:

 

[PLTuck]

You see - it's assumptions like that which really show some fans up.

Stupid Football Manager game. It's really given fans the stupid idea that they even have a hundredth of the understanding of a real football manager.

This is a thread not to bash Jol - which you continually did, despite him masterminding a win against Chelsea as his highlight.

Your blatant anti-Jol agenda pissed me off during his tenure and now dares to flare up again. Come off your fucking high horse and praise the man that turned the fortunes of this club around.

Here fucking here!

:clap:


If I didn't have to spread the love, you'd have some rep...not that you need it :grin:

 

[nidge]

(100 million. its the least i would expect)

he was naive with his tactics

100 million over 2 years to completely rebuild a team isn't that expensive. Think about Lennon we paid about £1,500,000 for him how much is he worth now, Huddlestone we paid £2,500,000 for how much is he worth now. Look at Carrick we paid £2,500,000 and we got £18,600,000 for him.

A lot of our buys have been bought under the premise that if you buy young inexperienced players before they make their name we can make a major profit if we sell them or they increase the overall value of the club as they are classed as an asset.

If you look at what we have spent compared to the overall value of our squad you will probably find that our squad is probably worth more than what we paid for it in total.

 

[DoublePivot]

Good post PT. I do think that the collective "we" are allowed a bit of histrionics with this patch as it has been such a painful season. So we can be ridiculous and think we have a chance at Europe for a day or two. But we do need to stay grounded and see this as a step in the right direction rather than more. But I hope (and honestly believe) that most of us are grounded enough to realize that the change in management meant a different direction, and for Ramos to get things going in the direction he wants, it will take a lot more than 3 matches.

 

[sloth]

I'm loathe to get involved in this, because what is done is done and as one of the people agitating to replace Jol with (preferably) Ramos, it seems a better policy just to keep my head down and try not to get up too many noses, however...

... I don't think there should be a re-writing of history. Jol was the best manager since Venables and when you bear in mind the ultra-competitive competition the Prems become since Venables was in charge you could argue he was as good as the sun-tanned one.

But he also lacked in significant areas. I'm definitely going to list them again, but suffice to say whether you agree or not it's not enough to either denigrate the critics or pick one factor or another as the reason. Jol deserved all the glory he has got for the coach he is and the success he's had and it would be nit-picking to point at all the outside contributory factors in our 5th places, just as it is nit-picking to point out all the outside contributory factors to his down-fall. We had a disastrous run and he was at the helm. That's it.

Lastly, Ramos may or may not be the new Messiah and I completely agree it is pointless to compare him with Jol. Ramos will be measured on the success he brings to the club and that is as it should be and as it has always been.

 

[SpurSince57]

(100 million. its the least i would expect)

he was naive with his tactics

'Tactically naive'. How many thousands of fans must be grateful to whoever first cooked up this phrase! It allows semi-literate ninnies who'd probably never heard of the word 'naive' to sound all sophisticated and give the impression of actually knowing something about the subject. What it actually conveys is: 'I can't think for myself and know fuck all'.

But Jol's in good company; I've seen Wenger accused of tactical naivety over on Arsenal-Mania. Yes, they have their low-wattage bulbs over there, too.

 

[al_pacino]

Can I just echo everything SS57 said, tactically naive is just a phrase used to cover your own lack of knowledge.

 

[truespur]

You see - it's assumptions like that which really show some fans up.

Stupid Football Manager game. It's really given fans the stupid idea that they even have a hundredth of the understanding of a real football manager.

This is a thread not to bash Jol - which you continually did, despite him masterminding a win against Chelsea as his highlight.

Your blatant anti-Jol agenda pissed me off during his tenure and now dares to flare up again. Come off your fucking high horse and praise the man that turned the fortunes of this club around.

never played that game. dont get me wrong i have a lot of respect for jol for what he did but you guys act like he is a god. he won fuck all, and his record against the top 4 was shocking. at least under graham we won a few and got us a trophy. dont get me started on his tactics at times.

we now have a manager who has the confidence of the players, totally.
Stoof, come back to me in a few years and tell me if we are not in a better position, and quote me on this JOL WILL NEVER BE A TOP MANAGER :violin:

 

[BoringOldFan]

Over on FTL someone started a thread saying that Ramos must be a brilliant psychologist (or brought one with him) because of the way he got Lennon to run in behind the defender to cross for the first goal last night.

Obviously me being me I just had to point out that it was exactly the same move we used to score the third goal against Boro away last season :grin:.

It's all part of this revisionism that Jol was crap. But that will subside and as ever, people will revert to statistics to assess his time here.

And those will show that he was our most successful Premier League manager in terms of points won, goals scored and win ratio.