The Jol Comparisons

[gooch]

Do you consider Rocha, Berbatov, Zokora or Malbranque to be inexperienced? I think we have signed all since Davids? Have we not?

no, i guess not, so jol should have done better. settled then

 

[justfookinhitit]

The Jol and Ramos scenario is a bit like a bike that your parents buy you for Christmas when you're about 6. You absolutely love it, think it is the best bike in the world, but then over time outgrow it and want something else. Then a new bike comes along, you realise it has gears, a funky paint job, gets you around a bit faster and you absolutely love it. You look back on the old bike with real affection, knowing that you had great times together, but realise that the new bike is just a bit better and is what you need at that time in your life.

If I ever met Jol I'd shake his hand and thank him for everything he did for us. He picked the team up by the scruff of the neck and took us forwards, and we should all be grateful for that. But now a new guy has now come in, taken that same team and though it is early days looks like he has us on a track to go further still. For me the jury is still out on Ramos because it is still relatively early days, but I sincerely hope that with a bit of time he proves his worth to us all and we can hold him in the same high esteem that we did for Jol.

 

[rez9000]

It boils down to what is more important in people's minds: The final League position or individual games.

If the final League position is more important then Jol should get the praise he deserves for two fifth placed finishes.

If individual games are more important then why has no-one slammed Ramos for the Arsenal defeat?

Comparison cuts both ways. Ramos hasn't beaten one of the Top 4, either (to be fair, he's only faced them once). But no-one's launched an ill-thought out tirade against him, have they? The reason why is that he's been seen to have a different approach to Jol and it seems that that forgives everything. Because he seems to have turned the season around then the feeling is that it was right to get rid of Jol.

If Jol was responsible for our early-season slump, then he is just as responsible for our two fifth places in the previous two seasons. But if a combination of factors account for our two fifth placed finishes, then the same is true of our early season slump. And no-one in their right mind is going to say that all the speculation surrounding the club won't have had an affect on everyone at the club.

You can't have it only one way. Jol can't be blamed for the poor results and then have the credit for the good performances taken away from him.

If Ramos has mitigating factors that forgive the Arsenal defeat, then so does Jol. And no manager, ever, has managed a club where he hasn't lost at some point. Some people put up individual games as evidence that Jol wasn't up to the job. That's just lazy! Every manager loses games. And every manager has results that should have gone his way, but didn't. Or had games where his team was in control and then ended up throwing it away. For God's sake we had one at the Lane earlier this season, or does Martin O'Neal throwing away a three goal lead not count as a mistake?

Jol was good, and Ramos (we hope) will be. It's not a question of one being better than the other. Ramos may end up taking us further than Jol did, but without Martin Jol, I'm not certain we would have even been able to get Ramos in the first place. Without Jol, there wouldn't be talk of the Big 5. Without Jol, we may well still be languishing in the mire of mid-table mediocrity. Praise Ramos, by all means (and in all honesty, my objectivity toward him is crumbling far sooner than I felt was appropriate), but don't denigrate a man who had a hand in getting Spurs going again.

If he had his faults, fine. By all means, point them out. But why not praise his strengths and achievements while you're at it? Why only look to the negatives of what he did?

Regardless, putting the two managers side-by-side is pointless. They are different men, in different circumstances, with different approaches. It would be like comparing Bill Nicholson and Keith Burkinshaw (I know we had Terry Neill between them). Both did very well for our club, but they were different men. And let's not forget that before Burkinshaw got any success, he did get us relegated first. But no-one derides what Burkinshaw did for us, do they? He must have done something wrong to get us relegated, right? But we remember what Keith Burkinshaw achieved for the club, not where he failed. Don't we owe the same to Martin Jol?

ED: Christ, that was along post. I feel like I'm in D&D

 

[Stoof]

*post*

I think that sums it up really. Cheers Mart, vamos Ramos!

We go Ramos? What does that even mean Stoof? You twat.

 

[Legend10]

Individual games are important, certain games if you want to achieve something or win something are quite simply crunch matches along the way. When we had those crunch matches last season we failed to win in all of them. I'm particularly talking about cup games here, people eulogise about our cup runs as if they were something special but we never defeated 1 decent team in a cup game last season. The first decent opposition we come up against in each competition knocked us out. For me Ramos has already won a crunch cup game for us at Man City as the League cup still looks our best chance of European qualification for next season.

You are of course correct that Ramos hasn't won a game against the top 4 but he has only played 1 match away at Arse plus if you want to add it 1 with Sevilla again at the Arse but lets see what he can do between now and the seasons end when we will have at least 6 more opportunities. After all Ramos's record against Barca & Real whilst at Sevilla was good.

I'm not sure that without Jol there would be no talk of the big 5, after all he has had a very good squad of players to work with during his tenure.

It may well be the case that I personally don't give enough credit to Jol for his achievements as Spurs manager. But I also think other people have gone way overboard in the praise they have lavished on him, labelling him as a Spurs legend etc.

In my own personal mind he will go down as an average Spurs manager who achieved EUFA qualification twice with the best squad of players that Spurs have had for a very very long time.

 

[rez9000]

Individual games are important, certain games if you want to achieve something or win something are quite simply crunch matches along the way. When we had those crunch matches last season we failed to win in all of them. I'm particularly talking about cup games here, people eulogise about our cup runs as if they were something special but we never defeated 1 decent team in a cup game last season. The first decent opposition we come up against in each competition knocked us out. For me Ramos has already won a crunch cup game for us at Man City as the League cup still looks our best chance of European qualification for next season.

You are of course correct that Ramos hasn't won a game against the top 4 but he has only played 1 match away at Arse plus if you want to add it 1 with Sevilla again at the Arse but lets see what he can do between now and the seasons end when we will have at least 6 more opportunities. After all Ramos's record against Barca & Real whilst at Sevilla was good.

I'm not sure that without Jol there would be no talk of the big 5, after all he has had a very good squad of players to work with during his tenure.

It may well be the case that I personally don't give enough credit to Jol for his achievements as Spurs manager. But I also think other people have gone way overboard in the praise they have lavished on him, labelling him as a Spurs legend etc.

In my own personal mind he will go down as an average Spurs manager who achieved EUFA qualification twice with the best squad of players that Spurs have had for a very very long time.

Of course, some games are important. But our Cup runs last season were very good. As for playing good sides, what about Besiktas and Leverkusen in the UEFA Cup? We beat them both. We beat them both away. They were good results, especially against Besiktas who were formidable at the time. And we may not have come up against stern opposition in the domestic cups, but we went to the latter stages in both of them. And a Cup competition is never a foregone conlcusion.

We ended up playing 60 games last season, and for our efforts we gained a fifth place finish, two quarter-finals and a semi-final. When compared to other recent seasons, that speaks to me of achievement, not underachievement.

To say that Jol gained European qualification with the best squad of players that we've had at the Lane for some time, feeds into my point that one aspect of the club alone cannot be solely responsible for the fortunes of the club. We may have had the best squad of players at Spurs for a long time, but to suggest that any manager could have done what Jol did sullies what the club as a whole achieved. Even if it were true, he still got us the two fifth placed finishes, didn't he? Doesn't he deserve some recognition for that?

The reason that I personally rail against Jol-bashing is the inherent ingratitude in such behaviour. And it's been evident not just from certain fans, but from the board as well. The board treated him very badly toward the end of his tenure. Instead of allowing him to leave in a dignified manner, they strung him along for 2 months. That's ingratitude.

As for some fans, they've treated his achievements as par for the course, as if it were no more than should have been expected. That's outrageous! At the start of the 04/05 season I doubt you'd find a Spurs fan who would have complained if they had been told that by the end of the following season they would have qualified for Europe again.

As for treating him like a Legend, why not? Why is Ginola hailed as a Legend? He didn't win anything except a League Cup with us. He is a Spurs Legend because he encapsulated what the club is supposed to be about: glory. And Jol, at times, engineered some truly glorious football. Add to that the difference between him and other managers. He brought dignity, humour and class to the post, and he won us a lot of respect and much regard from neutral fans because of it.

Being a Spurs Legend is about achievement. But not achievement purely in terms of trophies and medals. Mabbut became a Legend through showing loyalty and determination and sheer hard work (and a couple of medals too). Ginola became a Legend because he brought flair and style and glory to the pitch (and a floppy haircut too). Jol can be considered a Legend, in my opinion, because he brought a sense of fun to the club, and played his part in making us a team that neutral fans like to back and rival fans have come to fear. For that, he deserves better than to be labelled as merely average.

 

[Pleat_Out]

Being a Spurs Legend is about achievement. But not achievement purely in terms of trophies and medals. Mabbut became a Legend through showing loyalty and determination and sheer hard work (and a couple of medals too). Ginola became a Legend because he brought flair and style and glory to the pitch (and a floppy haircut too). Jol can be considered a Legend, in my opinion, because he brought a sense of fun to the club, and played his part in making us a team that neutral fans like to back and rival fans have come to fear. For that, he deserves better than to be labelled as merely average.

But that ultimately doesn't really distinguish him much even from someone like Glenn Hoddle, who certainly isn't, in terms of what he did on the coaching side, a legend. He also brought back fun to the club. Graham made us the most dull team in the country who in his last season broke his own record, set at Arsenal, for consecutive nil-nil draws.

Hoddle within a year had us destroying Chelsea 5-1 at the Lane with the best football we'd seen in a decade. I don't think the turnaround in style of play was that major under Jol. Sure, Santini seemed to going down to the same Graham style road but he wasn't here long enough to do much damage.

I think Jol like Hoddle was ultimately a means to an end. I agree we couldn't have got the talents of Jol/Arnesen back when Hoddle first arrived and we couldn't get someone like Ramos when Jol was first appointed head coach. So they should be thanked for their efforts and their part is getting to where we are now but certainly they don't go down as 'legends' or anything like.

 

[Pleat_Out]

Of course, some games are important. But our Cup runs last season were very good. As for playing good sides, what about Besiktas and Leverkusen in the UEFA Cup? We beat them both. We beat them both away. They were good results, especially against Besiktas who were formidable at the time. And we may not have come up against stern opposition in the domestic cups, but we went to the latter stages in both of them. And a Cup competition is never a foregone conlcusion

By the way, on this: I think last season was his best cup season which really illustrates what a shocking record he had in the cups

There is no need to mention to the cup results of 05/06. Our worst cup season, at least since the introduction of the League Cup, by far. So our worst cup season in about 45 years.

The other one, the first season, we lost at home to Liverpool reserves in the League Cup and both Notts Forest and WBA took us to replays in the FA Cup before we lost to a very mediorce Newcastle in the FA, who ended up in 14th under Graeme Souness.

So yeah, last season was his best but when Ramos with just one result at Man City has bettered any domestic cup result Jol had here in 3 seasons, it illustrates clearly what a terrible cup record he had.

 

[ethanedwards]

But that ultimately doesn't really distinguish him much even from someone like Glenn Hoddle, who certainly isn't, in terms of what he did on the coaching side, a legend. He also brought back fun to the club. Graham made us the most dull team in the country who in his last season broke his own record, set at Arsenal, for consecutive nil-nil draws.

Hoddle within a year had us destroying Chelsea 5-1 at the Lane with the best football we'd seen in a decade. I don't think the turnaround in style of play was that major under Jol. Sure, Santini seemed to going down to the same Graham style road but he wasn't here long enough to do much damage.

I think Jol like Hoddle was ultimately a means to an end. We couldn't have got the talents of Jol/Arnesen back when Hoddle first arrived and we couldn't get someone like Ramos when Jol was first appointed head coach. So they should be thanked for their efforts and their part is getting to where we are now but certainly they don't go down as 'legends' or anything like.

Good post. Is David Pleat a legend, our best finish in the league for decades?
Should Damien Comolli be considered a legend, after all since he became our DOF we have achieved back to back top 5 places, and accumulated a great squad of young talent?

 

[Legend10]

Of course, some games are important. But our Cup runs last season were very good. As for playing good sides, what about Besiktas and Leverkusen in the UEFA Cup? We beat them both. We beat them both away. They were good results, especially against Besiktas who were formidable at the time. And we may not have come up against stern opposition in the domestic cups, but we went to the latter stages in both of them. And a Cup competition is never a foregone conlcusion.

We ended up playing 60 games last season, and for our efforts we gained a fifth place finish, two quarter-finals and a semi-final. When compared to other recent seasons, that speaks to me of achievement, not underachievement.

To say that Jol gained European qualification with the best squad of players that we've had at the Lane for some time, feeds into my point that one aspect of the club alone cannot be solely responsible for the fortunes of the club. We may have had the best squad of players at Spurs for a long time, but to suggest that any manager could have done what Jol did sullies what the club as a whole achieved. Even if it were true, he still got us the two fifth placed finishes, didn't he? Doesn't he deserve some recognition for that?

The reason that I personally rail against Jol-bashing is the inherent ingratitude in such behaviour. And it's been evident not just from certain fans, but from the board as well. The board treated him very badly toward the end of his tenure. Instead of allowing him to leave in a dignified manner, they strung him along for 2 months. That's ingratitude.

As for some fans, they've treated his achievements as par for the course, as if it were no more than should have been expected. That's outrageous! At the start of the 04/05 season I doubt you'd find a Spurs fan who would have complained if they had been told that by the end of the following season they would have qualified for Europe again.

As for treating him like a Legend, why not? Why is Ginola hailed as a Legend? He didn't win anything except a League Cup with us. He is a Spurs Legend because he encapsulated what the club is supposed to be about: glory. And Jol, at times, engineered some truly glorious football. Add to that the difference between him and other managers. He brought dignity, humour and class to the post, and he won us a lot of respect and much regard from neutral fans because of it.

Being a Spurs Legend is about achievement. But not achievement purely in terms of trophies and medals. Mabbut became a Legend through showing loyalty and determination and sheer hard work (and a couple of medals too). Ginola became a Legend because he brought flair and style and glory to the pitch (and a floppy haircut too). Jol can be considered a Legend, in my opinion, because he brought a sense of fun to the club, and played his part in making us a team that neutral fans like to back and rival fans have come to fear. For that, he deserves better than to be labelled as merely average.

Rez let me start by saying I agree with some of your points but disagree with others but in my opinion you put forward the jol side better than anybody. When I read what you write I find myself nodding in agreement with a lot of it because of its reasoning.

As i said in my previous post I probably don't give Jol as much credit as I should for his achievements whilst at the helm. But in any sport or business or even personal lifes there are pivotal moments, crossroads that shape your destiny, moments that you have decisions to make and moments where you shape history.

For me personally there were history moments during Jol's tenure, moments when he had to make those massive decisions that would have an effect on what we could achieve. For me personally (and it is only an opinion) Jol made the wrong decisions in all of those history moments.

people will argue and credibly so that it wasn't down to him, but I see Chelsea away in the FA Cup as a history moment that he fluffed, Arse in the Carling the same, Defoe sitting on the bench for an hour against sevilla the same, Lenny being substituted at Highbury the same.

These are all the massive moments i look at in Jols tenure and I believe on all of these occasions he fluffed his lines and was at least as responsible as anybody or anything else stopping us winning any of those games.

For me he isn't a legend, if he is for others fine. Bill Nick is a legend for me as are Burkinshaw and Rowe. I do however see Ginola as a Spurs legend, reason being out of hundreds if not thousands he was one of the most exciting and best players ever to grace the hallowed turf. Legends for me is quite an exclusive club, in my mind Ginola belongs there, Jol doesn't.

I harbour no real feelings for Jol one way or the other now, he had his time, done his bit and has moved on. Although i don't know him personally he seems like a very decent guy and one that it would be fun to have a beer with. But I want more than that from my team, I want to win things, I want Spurs to return to past glory's and at the very least to compete with the big 4.

Vamos Ramos (I hope he will be a legend)

 

[rez9000]

Rez let me start by saying I agree with some of your points but disagree with others but in my opinion you put forward the jol side better than anybody. When I read what you write I find myself nodding in agreement with a lot of it because of its reasoning.

As i said in my previous post I probably don't give Jol as much credit as I should for his achievements whilst at the helm. But in any sport or business or even personal lifes there are pivotal moments, crossroads that shape your destiny, moments that you have decisions to make and moments where you shape history.

For me personally there were history moments during Jol's tenure, moments when he had to make those massive decisions that would have an effect on what we could achieve. For me personally (and it is only an opinion) Jol made the wrong decisions in all of those history moments.

people will argue and credibly so that it wasn't down to him, but I see Chelsea away in the FA Cup as a history moment that he fluffed, Arse in the Carling the same, Defoe sitting on the bench for an hour against sevilla the same, Lenny being substituted at Highbury the same.

These are all the massive moments i look at in Jols tenure and I believe on all of these occasions he fluffed his lines and was at least as responsible as anybody or anything else stopping us winning any of those games.

For me he isn't a legend, if he is for others fine. Bill Nick is a legend for me as are Burkinshaw and Rowe. I do however see Ginola as a Spurs legend, reason being out of hundreds if not thousands he was one of the most exciting and best players ever to grace the hallowed turf. Legends for me is quite an exclusive club, in my mind Ginola belongs there, Jol doesn't.

I harbour no real feelings for Jol one way or the other now, he had his time, done his bit and has moved on. Although i don't know him personally he seems like a very decent guy and one that it would be fun to have a beer with. But I want more than that from my team, I want to win things, I want Spurs to return to past glory's and at the very least to compete with the big 4.

Vamos Ramos (I hope he will be a legend)

I think, Legend, that we've gained a better understanding of what the other feels with regard to Jol. I believe I rate him higher than you, but that's perfectly fine. It's your opinion against mine and both are equally valid. I think that if the two sides of the argument tried to reason with each other a little more, then perhaps we wouldn't have so much of a polarised debate. Thanks for the debate, mate. :beer: