The Jol Comparisons

[Yid-ol]

Sigh....end of. COYS

what a great post :clap:

totaly sums up what you have been saying

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

Blimey, i'm still gutted at losing Burkinshaw.

 

[Allen]

everything we do on this site is folly. it doesnt matter what stats joey comes up with, he's not a manager, it doesnt matter what you, i, or anyone else on this site thinks because we're not players or part of the club, we're people that like to talk about the club we all support even though we know it doesnt make a slight difference in any way. its all folly. if people want to compare the two managers or criticise jol then no one can tell them they are wrong to do so or spew out 'but 5th twice in a row' like they're morons and dont know this. they do know this and have their opinion anyway. the way some of you respond to the posters that criticise or even doubt jol is wrong, especially one of the mods.

rez this post isnt aimed just at you, you were good for the quote, but to all of you jol cock suckers that show no respect to your fellow posters that dont share your view

and for the record i would have supported jol all the way as he probably took us towards a relegation battle through the season, believing he would turn us around. we're much better off without him

I know this isn't helping to tail this off but..
I have to clap this post. On the money! For those who were Jol supporters come-what-may (seemingly); anyone who said (says) anything against the man is treated with utter distain by many. And to add insult, it tends to be under the banner that those who didn't hold Jol in the same echelons were / are kids who don't remember the 'bad times' - when clearly many of us do, or we knew nothing about football.

Jol steadied the ship, stumbled us to 5th place twice playing very mediocre, basic and uncreative football.

We can compare as fans - course we can, we have a duty to. What we think on here can matter. These opinions are what end up in the stands and in Levy's ear (dramatic maybe, but you see where I'm going).

 

[sloth]

I'm sorry, sloth, but in that respect you're dead wrong. If you look to the last paragraph of post #138, this is what you'll see:



And most people share your view. Those who back Jol don't do it through rose-tinted specs (in the vast majority of cases), but simply believe he was the best manager we've had at the Lane for many years. The difference is that instead of a balanced critique, we see hostile criticism, usually of the type that isn't even backed up by a reasoned argument. We see attacks rather then analysis.

I've said it once, and I hoped I wouldn't have to say it again, sloth, but I've said that ONE of the main complaints. And, in truth, it is probably the complaint I've seen the most. And those that choose to bash Jol aren't being balanced, because they don't mention any of the good results, any of the real demonstrations of beautiful football that Spurs produced under Jol. If he's responsible for the failures, then he's just as responsible for the glories, yet few of those who wanted Jol out mention them. As for the phrase 'tactically naive' it has never been legitimate. It has no meaning. What is the definition of 'tactically naive'?

And this is misleading. The reason there hasn't been much of a balanced critique by those who look to defend Jol is that most of the threads about him polarise the debate before it's even started. Usually the thread title is so inflammatory that a balanced debate is rendered impossible. When someone starts a subject with the title 'Jol is crap!' what else do you expect apart from vociferousness from both sides?

Fair enough Rez, it's not the first time I've been known to jump the gun or direct my criticism poorly. Apologies.

 

[gooch]

and i was mearly pointing out that the decision to sack jol was only justified because the board wouldnt give him the players, and fucked him about, if you had only praised ramos and the team i would ahve joined in with it, but to put jol down as well, i thought i would mearly point out the point on my mind about it

jol works for the board. the board buys the players and jol has to work with the players provided. he couldnt do it, he had to go. what are you going on about? i dont tell my boss how to run his business, i work for him. ramos is using the same players to better effect. how did the board fuck jol? are we tottenham hotspur fc or martin jol fc? no one man is bigger than the club. jol knew the setup of the club. why cant one person say ramos is better without someone else reminding us that jol finished 5th whilst being raped analy by levy and commoli. not every one was happy with jol, just like not all chelski fans were happy with mourinho.

this thread should be locked. it goes nowhere and just winds everyone up

 

[dannythomas]

You see - it's assumptions like that which really show some fans up.

Stupid Football Manager game. It's really given fans the stupid idea that they even have a hundredth of the understanding of a real football manager.

This is a thread not to bash Jol - which you continually did, despite him masterminding a win against Chelsea as his highlight.

Your blatant anti-Jol agenda pissed me off during his tenure and now dares to flare up again. Come off your fucking high horse and praise the man that turned the fortunes of this club around.

As long as you are consistent and recognise the contribution originally made by Alan Sugar for first rescuing us from possible extinction and then putting the club on a sound financial footing. Just as Jol laid the foundations for Ramos to take us further forward so Sugar did the same for Enic. Both Jol and Sugar had their limitations but their positive contributions far outweigh the negatives. Both are unfairly criticised on this Board and in Sugar's case he is villified. Yes one is a coach, the other a chairman. Without Jol we may have had continued mediocrity, without Sugar we would have been going through what Leeds fans suffer.

 

[batigol]

are we tottenham hotspur fc or martin jol fc? no one man is bigger than the club. jol knew the setup of the club. why cant one person say ramos is better without someone else reminding us that jol finished 5th whilst being raped analy by levy and commoli. not every one was happy with jol, just like not all chelski fans were happy with mourinho.

this thread should be locked. it goes nowhere and just winds everyone up

Great post and exactly what I want to say. Move on people. I thank Jol but I think we are in better hands. People who want to argue with me (Its personal opinion) forget that its the club we are supporting and not the coach or players. Otherwise you can kindly switch allegiance when Jol finds a new club. Accept that there will surely be some people who think better of Ramos than Jol as a coach for whatever reasons they may have. Right or wrong, it's their opinions. You say what you want and leave it at that.

As long as we are doing well and picking up the points while playing some great football then why knock ourselves silly over such a pointless argument.

 

[Yid-ol]

jol works for the board. the board buys the players and jol has to work with the players provided. he couldnt do it, he had to go. what are you going on about? i dont tell my boss how to run his business, i work for him. ramos is using the same players to better effect. how did the board fuck jol? are we tottenham hotspur fc or martin jol fc? no one man is bigger than the club. jol knew the setup of the club. why cant one person say ramos is better without someone else reminding us that jol finished 5th whilst being raped analy by levy and commoli. not every one was happy with jol, just like not all chelski fans were happy with mourinho.

this thread should be locked. it goes nowhere and just winds everyone up

Jol did indeed work for the board, you are correct 100% :up:

but if i went to my boss and said, Boss i need a pen or else i cant do my work, my bos would then get me pens so i could do my job, jol went to the board, i need X player in X position and didnt get what he asked for :shrug:

jols isnt or ever was bigger than the club, he did a great job for us and deserves praise now and then, yet alot of the time he gets slated and to me that is wrong

 

[Legend10]

jol works for the board. the board buys the players and jol has to work with the players provided. he couldnt do it, he had to go. what are you going on about? i dont tell my boss how to run his business, i work for him. ramos is using the same players to better effect. how did the board fuck jol? are we tottenham hotspur fc or martin jol fc? no one man is bigger than the club. jol knew the setup of the club. why cant one person say ramos is better without someone else reminding us that jol finished 5th whilst being raped analy by levy and commoli. not every one was happy with jol, just like not all chelski fans were happy with mourinho.

this thread should be locked. it goes nowhere and just winds everyone up

Good post.

It's no different to being a manager in any other business, the ability to manage upwards as well as downwards is a key ingredient to doing a good job.

Martin Jol was an employee of the club and not the boss, he was charged with a doing a job to a level which met their expectations. As far as the board was concerned he didn't and there were better alternatives as manager available and they made a decision to get rid of him and compensated him accordingly.

Although early days there is every reason to believe that the board made a good decison in dispensing with the services of some of its employees and replacing them with alternatives.

I suspect that their only regret is that they didn't make the changes earlier and then we maybe considerably higher in the table.

 

[gooch]

Jol did indeed work for the board, you are correct 100% :up:

but if i went to my boss and said, Boss i need a pen or else i cant do my work, my bos would then get me pens so i could do my job, jol went to the board, i need X player in X position and didnt get what he asked for :shrug:

jols isnt or ever was bigger than the club, he did a great job for us and deserves praise now and then, yet alot of the time he gets slated and to me that is wrong

yes, but if my boss gives me a bic biro when i want a parker, then i have a decision to make or make the best out of what i've been given. i dont know what the problem is. we have a sporting director, that is the setup, jol should have walked then with his head held high. as it is he fucked up this season, that is a fact.

the second bold is the problem. lots of people are wrong on this site and you should stay out of the threads that you dont like instead of boring us with old news about jol and 5th. no one forgets what jol achieved but he wasnt perfect and people are entitled to complain about him, yet instead of counter arguing you say that he deserves no criticism for finishing 5th and wont let a bad word be said

and finally, berbatov is class but clive allen once scored 49 goals in a season therefore anyone whoever makes a compliment about berbatov must be reminded of clive allen's 49 goals in a season. that is what you jol fans come across like

move on.

 

[Yid-ol]

yes, but if my boss gives me a bic biro when i want a parker, then i have a decision to make or make the best out of what i've been given. i dont know what the problem is. we have a sporting director, that is the setup, jol should have walked then with his head held high. as it is he fucked up this season, that is a fact.

the second bold is the problem. lots of people are wrong on this site and you should stay out of the threads that you dont like instead of boring us with old news about jol and 5th. no one forgets what jol achieved but he wasnt perfect and people are entitled to complain about him, yet instead of counter arguing you say that he deserves no criticism for finishing 5th and wont let a bad word be said

and finally, berbatov is class but clive allen once scored 49 goals in a season therefore anyone whoever makes a compliment about berbatov must be reminded of clive allen's 49 goals in a season. that is what you jol fans come across like

move on.

but then the boss would expect mediocar work for mediocar suplies :shrug:

i have moved on, i suport Ramos as much as i did Jol, but Jol is part of the history of tottenham now, best manager we had had in many a years, if your asking me to forget this, that i can not do, and if people keep posting about jol and saying things i think are wrong, then i shall post, not me bringing it up but others, maybe ask them to move on, not me :wink:

 

[bomberH]

People who want to argue with me (Its personal opinion) forget that its the club we are supporting and not the coach or players. Otherwise you can kindly switch allegiance when Jol finds a new club.

Can't agree with this bit whatsoever. Did anyone switch allegiances when Gazza went to Rome, Hoddle to France, Teddy to Utd etc? If a favourite leaves, people are well within their rights to continue to praise them if they feel the need. If they meant that much to the fan involved, then why not?

Yes the club are in a better position now than when Jol was sacked and in hindsight, the board should've got rid of Jol the second they were caught trying to meet Ramos instead of acting like the idiots they did for 2 months denying it. Remember, one of the main reasons (likeability aside) people feel for Jol is down to the way the board treated him towards the end. If he'd walked out on us to take charge of another prem team, he wouldn't be regarded in such high esteem.

But to suggest someone should forget about a player/manager just because he's gone, then support the team they go to, is a bit short sighted.

 

[gooch]

but then the boss would expect mediocar work for mediocar suplies :shrug:

that i cant agree with because of the philosophy of the club when buying players. we all know spurs like to sign young upcoming talent that can potentially be sold for more than we paid. edgar davids was the last experienced player we signed that i can think of. the club want a manager that can nurture the talent and help turn potential into finished article. just because jol maybe didnt consider them good enough is his problem because the board do consider them good enough and they decide thats who they want and jol has to work within that setup

do you think jol should have been given more time?

 

[Yid-ol]

that i cant agree with because of the philosophy of the club when buying players. we all know spurs like to sign young upcoming talent that can potentially be sold for more than we paid. edgar davids was the last experienced player we signed that i can think of. the club want a manager that can nurture the talent and help turn potential into finished article. just because jol maybe didnt consider them good enough is his problem because the board do consider them good enough and they decide thats who they want and jol has to work within that setup

do you think jol should have been given more time?

i dont think jol needed any more time, it was obvious that the board wanted shot of him, even befor the season had started, and this was after 2 5th place finish's. Fair enough buying in tallent for the furure, but we also needed in players for now, just look at our defence for that (one area jol was wanting an experienced player for and didnt get) Jol is a good manager and wont be forgoten by many, but the board and jol had diffrent ideas and parting ways was the best solution, but as i say again, if people tke digs at jol on here then people will speak up, and then the anit jol lot come out and say we should move on when its not always people who like jol that started it

 

[gooch]

well i dont know what more to say. i was a massive jol fan but that didnt and doesnt stop me from criticising him, because he wasnt perfect and should have done better. the impression i get is that you and others wont let someone say anything negative about jol when they have every right to, and you have every right to respond as you say you will, except you wont be counter arguing the criticism, you'll just be reminding us that jol finshied 5th twice and did a good job, something every spurs fan under the sun already knows, regardless of whether they are slagging him off or not

 

[Yid-ol]

well i dont know what more to say. i was a massive jol fan but that didnt and doesnt stop me from criticising him, because he wasnt perfect and should have done better. the impression i get is that you and others wont let someone say anything negative about jol when they have every right to, and you have every right to respond as you say you will, except you wont be counter arguing the criticism, you'll just be reminding us that jol finshied 5th twice and did a good job, something every spurs fan under the sun already knows, regardless of whether they are slagging him off or not

i dont mid people saying bad things about them if they are true, he wasnt the great manager i hoped he would become, and he was at times tacticaly wrong.

But when people say things that i think are wrong to have ago at jol, then i come in and have my say

 

[Legend10]

Yep just look at our defence

The one that Jol conceded 21 goals in 10 premiership games with and the one that ramos has conceded 9 goals in 8 premiership games with exactly the same players.

But surely we must have sacrificed something at the other end whilst we have tightened up?

Well we scored 17 in 10 under Jol (pretty good) and under Ramos it's also 17 but in 8 with exactly the same players.


Jol 10 games 7 points GD -4
Ramos 8 games 14 points GD +8

With the same players provided by an inept board.

The point of all of this is that there is nothing wrong with the squad of players that Jol or now Ramos had or has at their disposal.

You only have too watch the games to see how much better organised, motivated, disciplined and dare I say it prepared we are in such a short space of time. The test for Ramos is can he keep it going and improve it further.

 

[Yid-ol]

jol did well for 2 years, and then is judged purpley on the start of this season, after all the crap that went on behind the doors? :lol:

Best 2 seasons for tottenham in a hell of alont time, and brought hope back to many a spurs fan :bow: for that Jol shall always be rememberd, but also lets hope Ramos will take us further and bring home some silverware and crack the top 4

 

[nicdic]

Campbell was good all the time he played for us, he's a legend?

:shrug:

 

[Legend10]

jol did well for 2 years, and then is judged purpley on the start of this season, after all the crap that went on behind the doors? :lol:

Best 2 seasons for tottenham in a hell of alont time, and brought hope back to many a spurs fan :bow: for that Jol shall always be rememberd, but also lets hope Ramos will take us further and bring home some silverware and crack the top 4

I'm not judging Jol at all let alone purely on the start of this season, he's been and gone and THFC has moved on.

I was just of the impression that you were saying to Gooch that the tools that the board had given Jol to work with were mediocre and wasn't upto his desired standard, particularly defensively.

I was merely pointing out that thus far Ramos seems to be doing a pretty good job with the mediocre tools that he has been provided with.

But there is a long way to go.