The Jol Comparisons

[Yid-ol]

Campbell was good all the time he played for us, he's a legend?

:shrug:

he isnt, only for the sole reason of how he left us, if he hadnt turned his back on us and we had sold him i am sure he would have been


Fair enough Legend, certain players will work better under diffrent managers, i think if Jol had got the 2 players he wanted the squad would have worked perfecly fine to his needs, ramos has come in and improved some players under performing and seems to have players he likes already brought in

 

[nicdic]

The problem I have with all of this is yes he did well, and yes he was a nice bloke, but he is no longer our manager and therefore we should take him off the ridiculous pedestal some posters have placed him upon. Ramos is the manager now, and we should be getting behind him, not constantly reminiscing how wonderful Jol was.

How many of us would swap Ramos to have Jol back?

Not many i'd expect.

 

[Stoof]

Ramos is the manager now, and we should be getting behind him, not constantly reminiscing how wonderful Jol was.

Shock horror as humans master feeling more than one emotion at a time. Exclusive!

:-|

They are completely exclusive, those two things.

 

[Yid-ol]

The problem I have with all of this is yes he did well, and yes he was a nice bloke, but he is no longer our manager and therefore we should take him off the ridiculous pedestal some posters have placed him upon. Ramos is the manager now, and we should be getting behind him, not constantly reminiscing how wonderful Jol was.

How many of us would swap Ramos to have Jol back?

Not many i'd expect.

then should we also not compaire ramos to jol, or talk about jol in praising ramos... if you have aproblem with this, contact the riginal psoter, as it was him who talked about jol first and that trigerd off everything else

do we sweep our past history under the carpet, forget about all the ex players? no, we are proud of our history and always have old players come out at half time or anual events at the lane.... if you are saying that we should forget all that i sujest you would then need to contact the club and tell them that you dont think it is all appropriate because none of them play for us and nothing back then counts anymore :shrug:

i wouldnt want jol back because ramos is easly the better manager, but i would easly take jol back if we had no manager, Jol will always be high in my books, and basicly if people have a problem with other people rating old manager and players then that is really there problem and not anyone else's

 

[nicdic]

If I was constantly going on about how good Carrick was all the time, it would read as if I wasn't happy with the other players in his place. Thats what i'm saying. It doesn't need to be said.

 

[Stoof]

If I was constantly going on about how good Carrick was all the time, it would read as if I wasn't happy with the other players in his place. Thats what i'm saying. It doesn't need to be said.

As I said to you in the other thread - this is a response to all the shitty little digs that have been thrown around: "Jol wouldn't have done this", etc. - that is what is not needed.

You've got it seriously the wrong way round.

 

[Yid-ol]

If I was constantly going on about how good Carrick was all the time, it would read as if I wasn't happy with the other players in his place. Thats what i'm saying. It doesn't need to be said.

well then if all the all that needs to be done is all the people having ago at jol to stop doing so, and the problem shall be ended, as most of the time this is what happen, have alook at the first psot of this thread, and see who started talking about Jol first... heres a clue, it was someone trying to praise ramos

and then all that will come up is a thread now and then when jol says or does anything in conection with tottenham!

 

[Legend10]

The problem I have with all of this is yes he did well, and yes he was a nice bloke, but he is no longer our manager and therefore we should take him off the ridiculous pedestal some posters have placed him upon. Ramos is the manager now, and we should be getting behind him, not constantly reminiscing how wonderful Jol was.

How many of us would swap Ramos to have Jol back?

Not many i'd expect.

On the contrary I'm really starting to wonder whether the last 3 seasons (including this 1) have been missed opportunities.

I'm starting to seriously wonder what we could have achieved if the team had been in somebody else's hands.

We shall never know.

 

[bomberH]

On the contrary I'm really starting to wonder whether the last 3 seasons (including this 1) have been missed opportunities.

I'm starting to seriously wonder what we could have achieved if the team had been in somebody else's hands.

We shall never know.

If only Orient were taken over by Abramovic 5 years ago, i wonder what they could've achieved...

Somebody else's hands? Whose? Ramos? Cos he had only just started at Seville, his 10th job in 10 years - and we wouldn't have even thought of him. Fergie? Wenger? Mourinho? Dowie? Santini? Jewell? Who? We tried for Trappatoni and he turned us down. The top, top managers were already taken.

Jol was a good man to choose at the right time. Arnesen knew what he was doing when he picked him as Santini's number 2.

And think of all the Godfather T-Shirts that have been sold around the ground on matchdays.

 

[nicdic]

Why is there a need for a dig at Ramos there? Legend10 didn't say if Ramos had been in charge...

I think both sides of this arguement are as bad as each other. Those calling for Jol to still be talked about positively, trying to bring out facts to back them up at any opportunity, and those saying Ramos is soooo much better than Jol. What does it matter? Jol was good, now we have Ramos, hopefully he'll take us further.

 

[bomberH]

Why is there a need for a dig at Ramos there? Legend10 didn't say if Ramos had been in charge...

I think both sides of this arguement are as bad as each other. Those calling for Jol to still be talked about positively, trying to bring out facts to back them up at any opportunity, and those saying Ramos is soooo much better than Jol. What does it matter? Jol was good, now we have Ramos, hopefully he'll take us further.

Dig at Ramos? Are you a specialist in trying to pick things that aren't there? I was pointing out that Ramos was relatively unknown when Jol took charge and was new to a high profile job, as was Jol. During the subsequent 2 or so years, Ramos' profile has risen massively because he spent them making Seville the team they are now.

So, saying 'oh what could've been if we had....' goes for absolutely any club anywhere. It's a moo point Chandler. I agree with your last sentence though.

 

[gooch]

There are a lot of threads that have these niggly little "well Jol wouldn't have done [●]" comments. It's all very well to note the differences in management styles, but to poo-poo the achievements...is to do him a huge disservice and one I will continue to correct.

well then if all the all that needs to be done is all the people having ago at jol to stop doing so, and the problem shall be ended

why can't people complain? this is where i'm stumped. are chelski fans wrong to complain that mourinho never won the champions league because you'd say he won the league? dont you strive to be better and want better for your team. if we havnt achieved the maximum from our team its because things werent good enough, one of which was (not only) jol, even though he got us 5th twice. there were things wrong with jol other wise he'd still be here, why are people not allowed to say what they are without being 'corrected'. wtf?

 

[nicdic]

Dig at Ramos? Are you a specialist in trying to pick things that aren't there? I was pointing out that Ramos was relatively unknown when Jol took charge and was new to a high profile job, as was Jol. During the subsequent 2 or so years, Ramos' profile has risen massively because he spent them making Seville the team they are now.

So, saying 'oh what could've been if we had....' goes for absolutely any club anywhere. It's a moo point Chandler. I agree with your last sentence though.

The last sentence is the point i'm trying to make really. People take the Jol praising as a dig at Ramos, and people take the comparisons as a big dig at Jol.

 

[Yid-ol]

why can't people complain? this is where i'm stumped. are chelski fans wrong to complain that mourinho never won the champions league because you'd say he won the league? dont you strive to be better and want better for your team. if we havnt achieved the maximum from our team its because things werent good enough, one of which was (not only) jol, even though he got us 5th twice. there were things wrong with jol other wise he'd still be here, why are people not allowed to say what they are without being 'corrected'. wtf?

i was replying to someone saying that they didnt want to see people praising jol yet most the time it is people praising ramos and putting jol down that starts it all :shrug: i wasnt saying that you cant complain and all for complaining if it is a worthwhile cause, try and not take what i say out of contex to try and wind up more people :up:

and to the rest of the poitns you made, i answerd them already in other psots, yes jol made mistakes and yes ramos is better htan him, but to me Jol is still a legend, i have no problem with that, but some seem to do.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Dig at Ramos? Are you a specialist in trying to pick things that aren't there? I was pointing out that Ramos was relatively unknown when Jol took charge and was new to a high profile job, as was Jol. During the subsequent 2 or so years, Ramos' profile has risen massively because he spent them making Seville the team they are now.

So, saying 'oh what could've been if we had....' goes for absolutely any club anywhere. It's a moo point Chandler. I agree with your last sentence though.

And there is the perfect comparison. You have stumbled into the answer to whatever the question is. Why compare what Ramos is doing now with what Jol did then.

The perfect comparison is available. The both took over biggish (but not top 4) clubs on the up around the same time.Two major european leagues. Both worked under DOF's. Both recruited in a similar fashion (Ramos probably with a much smaller budget). Both played predominantly a 442.
They even crossed swords in euro competition. Whilst one crossed the "next level" threshold, one didn't.

The rest is history.

 

[Locotoro]

that i cant agree with because of the philosophy of the club when buying players. we all know spurs like to sign young upcoming talent that can potentially be sold for more than we paid. edgar davids was the last experienced player we signed that i can think of. the club want a manager that can nurture the talent and help turn potential into finished article. just because jol maybe didnt consider them good enough is his problem because the board do consider them good enough and they decide thats who they want and jol has to work within that setup

do you think jol should have been given more time?

Do you consider Rocha, Berbatov, Zokora or Malbranque to be inexperienced? I think we have signed all since Davids? Have we not?

 

[Locotoro]

It's a moo point Chandler...

I've seen this spelling mistake on the forum one too many times. Is this supposed to be some type of joke or is it a geniune mistake???

 

[DogsOfWar]

These comparisons will always be here because the only way some of the long standing arguments on this board could be solved was with a new manager and therefore someone to compare Jol to.

There were those who defended Robinson by claiming it was the fault of midfield/defence/temporary lack of form.
Ramos kicks his arse around the running track for a few weeks and suddenly he's starting to look like a keeper again.

Some claimed that Huddlestone was not overweight, that he was just naturally a big lad.
Ramos kicks his arse around the running track and then comes out publicly and says that he needed to, and has, lost weight.

Some claimed that our players lacked experience which is why we were down the bottom.
Ramos comes in and plays players such as O'Hara with even less experience and gets results.

Any anti-Jol comments rarely demanded the head of Jol, but they were able to see some of his shortcomings. Unfortunately those who were pro-Jol seemed to blame every issue on the board, players, fans or tea lady rather than at the door of the man who was ultimately responsible.

The bottom line is those who defended Jol to the hilt will shy away from comparison as it puts some of their crazy talk in a poor light, whereas those who didn't won't as it will always be human nature to say 'I told you so'.

 

[bomberH]

I've seen this spelling mistake on the forum one too many times. Is this supposed to be some type of joke or is it a geniune mistake???

Obviously you weren't a fan of Friends... It was just something Joey said to Chandler and his explanation of it was something along the lines of that a moo point is like a cow's opinion, it doesn't really matter, it's moo. Basically meant that it had nothing to do with the subject matter.

 

[Eric_s]

These comparisons will always be here because the only way some of the long standing arguments on this board could be solved was with a new manager and therefore someone to compare Jol to.

There were those who defended Robinson by claiming it was the fault of midfield/defence/temporary lack of form.
Ramos kicks his arse around the running track for a few weeks and suddenly he's starting to look like a keeper again.

Some claimed that Huddlestone was not overweight, that he was just naturally a big lad.
Ramos kicks his arse around the running track and then comes out publicly and says that he needed to, and has, lost weight.

Some claimed that our players lacked experience which is why we were down the bottom.
Ramos comes in and plays players such as O'Hara with even less experience and gets results.

Any anti-Jol comments rarely demanded the head of Jol, but they were able to see some of his shortcomings. Unfortunately those who were pro-Jol seemed to blame every issue on the board, players, fans or tea lady rather than at the door of the man who was ultimately responsible.

The bottom line is those who defended Jol to the hilt will shy away from comparison as it puts some of their crazy talk in a poor light, whereas those who didn't won't as it will always be human nature to say 'I told you so'.

Wise words. Agree.