The Jol Vote

[karsten_finkle]

regardless of the board's shambolic treatment of jol, jol must take a lot of the blame. 1 win in 10 league games with side we have is appaling and pathetic - quite frankly we deserve much better then that.

what's more conceding the SAME fucking goals time and time again must lay at the feet of jol. how many more goals from set pieces do we want to concede? only the scum have scored more goals in the league then us and we're 18th for christs sake - you don't need to have a national diploma to work out what our problem is, yet jol STILL hasn't sorted it out.

but that's my point - this thread is not about who's fault the performances are - it's whether jol should stay or go and for what reason.

we all know that jol is partly to blame but so are the players - do you really beleive that jol and hughton don't work at set pieces on the training ground? of course they do - so if anyone's really to blame it's the players for not taking the lessons learned onto the pitch.

i feel that the responsibility for our poor performances lies equally between the players, the manager and the board - it's a fuck-up from top to bottom.

the question is - now what? and that's what this thread is about. so rather than banging on about who's to blame (there's plenty of other threads for that), why not get back on topic and discuss what to do next?

 

[johno]

but that's my point - this thread is not about who's fault the performances are - it's whether jol should stay or go and for what reason.

we all know that jol is partly to blame but so are the players - do you really beleive that jol and hughton don't work at set pieces on the training ground? of course they do - so if anyone's really to blame it's the players for not taking the lessons learned onto the pitch.

i feel that the responsibility for our poor performances lies equally between the players, the manager and the board - it's a fuck-up from top to bottom.

the question is - now what? and that's what this thread is about. so rather than banging on about who's to blame (there's plenty of other threads for that), why not get back on topic and discuss what to do next?

to be honest with your mate im starting to question whether jol and hughton actually do. since the first day of last season, (yes last season), away at bolton, we've continually shipped goals from distance and set pieces. now, to be frank, what sort of coaching and training allows us to still be conceding such shite goals over a season later?

your telling me they sit down and sort it out on the training ground, and the players 'forget' when they're out there? dont be so naive mate - its down to the coaching, simple as. we're so disorganised in defence its unbelievable, with players playing who should have been dropped weeks ago (sorry robbo).

of course the players must take some of the blame, however we're STILL making the same defensive mistakes and failing to close out matches.

whose fault is that? for all they're mistakes, them basic factors have nothing to do with the board's antics.

 

[karsten_finkle]

to be honest with your mate im starting to question whether jol and hughton actually do. since the first day of last season, (yes last season), away at bolton, we've continually shipped goals from distance and set pieces. now, to be frank, what sort of coaching and training allows us to still be conceding such shite goals over a season later?

your telling me they sit down and sort it out on the training ground, and the players 'forget' when they're out there? dont be so naive mate - its down to the coaching, simple as. we're so disorganised in defence its unbelievable, with players playing who should have been dropped weeks ago (sorry robbo).

of course the players must take some of the blame, however we're STILL making the same defensive mistakes and failing to close out matches.

whose fault is that? for all they're mistakes, them basic factors have nothing to do with the board's antics.

not forget - no.

they're young, have no leadership on the pitch and they panic. can you blame that on jol?

the back 5 need leaders in there to organise and keep things tight, ideally there should be 2 - the keeper and a centre back. when king's fit we're instantly better - without him we're a shambles because dawson, kaboul are too young and robinson has never been able to organise.

you can't pin this one solely on poor coaching. last season dawson was immense - what, is jol's coaching ability so shit that he turned a good player into a poor one overnight? i don't think so.

kaboul is the french under 21 captain and a huge prospect - did jol destroy him too? of course he didn't!

both are very young and need an experienced leader alongside to organise them and help them grow. we haven't got that at the moment and, boy, does it show.

 

[SpurSince57]

although I agree about it being too early to act if it was just this season, the problem is it happened last season aswell. That is where I see why the board felt this is not good enough, because it wasn't.

Our start stuffed up any chance we had of at least putting up a bit of a challenge for a CL place last season and we should have learnt from that this season, yet for it to happen again showed lessons were not learned. That is not the boards fault but the manager/coaching staff. The team picked for Sunderland, let's say was poor and anyone could see that and the mindset of the players, we were far too defensive.

It was also the best team that he could have picked, given that Lee, Bale, and Lennon were all off the menu. Too many on here dismiss Sunderland as a shit outfit that we should have walked over without breaking sweat, but they've shown several times that if you don't have width, they are very difficult indeed to break down. God knows, they frustrated a Ronaldo and Giggs-less United at OT and only succumbed to a set piece. And then three of our most experienced defenders combine to give them a soft winner at the death. Magic.

while I am sure it did effect them as you say, after it set in, it should have been used to motivate all concerned to prove the board was wrong, it sadly has not happened.

Of course it's going to affect them. But, sorry, knowing the board, or a section of it, has lost confidence in you before the season starts is bound to have a major psychological effect, and that's going to permeate down to the players as well. Nevertheless, we've actually put in some very decent performances only to shoot ourselves in the foot through defensive blunders, mostly individual ones, and had a few unlucky breaks; and although I tend to believe you make your own luck, who knows what might have happened had not Rio rescued VdS, or Clichy not got in the way of Berba's shot?

We have had a couple international breaks where the coaching staff/players could have got in the right mindset, knuckled down and got on with the job. Can't blame the Newcastle performance on anyone else but the coaching staff and the players.

When some key players have been away on international duty? If anything, the last international break came at precisely the wrong time. I couldn't believe how bad the performance at Newcastle was. Was that the same team that fought back from 4-1 down against Villa, the same central midfield that dominated Gerrard and Mascherano?

Yes the first game or so after the incident can cut some slack, but not now, it has been long enough to put it behind them and get in the right mindset. Can't keep putting poor performances on what happened in Spain :wink:

Disagree. How do you put it behind you when there is daily speculation in the media? Failure breeds failure, anxiety breeds anxiety. See Zoko interview in the Express today.

next thing our defensive problems etc that have not been sorted out will be the board's fault too

Agree. It's not the board's fault that we've had five different CBs and four different LBs in nine games. And guess what? It now looks as if we don't have a LB for tomorrow. And it's not the board's fault that any decent RM/RW has been able to turn Chimbonda at will, assuming he's actually in position to be turned in the first place. Or that Robinson's turned into a nervous wreck (and Cerny will probably follow suit).

the blame is equally spread between the players ( who lack commitment and passion ), the coaching staff ( who have not done a good job sorting out our problems, tactics and team selection, o and that Sunderland game etc ) and the board ( who got caught out ) :wink:

I don't blame the board exclusively, but if Jol carries the can for the team's performance, it only follows that the board, and specifically Levy, should carry it for overall performance. And everyone on this board seemed able to see that we really needed a good, experienced CM at least, and preferably an experienced CB too. You can't blame Jol or Comolli if our policy precluded the signing of either.

But we've been here before. If Jol gets the chop he'll have been our fourth manager in seven years (or fifth, if you count Pleaty). Had history worked out differently, it could be Sparky in the same position now. Look at the way the whole Hoddle business was handled (or mishandled). He really should have gone in May 2003 if he was going to go at all, but Levy 'kept faith' with him and then wielded the axe after six games of the new season. Again, what sort of message does that, and the current situation, transmit to potential replacements? One run of bad results and you'd best watch your back, buddy, I'd say.

 

[easiman]

Three games? That would have been laughable enough, but the meeting was on Friday 17th, three days after the Everton game. Word from the execrable 'Wan Danny Thomas' (who seemed to know an awful lot about what was going on behind the scenes, at least insofar as the information he said we'd hear we heard from BEN and Dragon1) was that the decision to oust Jol had been taken before a ball was kicked in anger. So if he wasn't up to the job before any games had been played, or after one or two had been played, he wasn't up to it in May. The board fucked up monumentally. Levy may be the football equivalent of Gordon Brown when it comes to fiscal prudence, but in terms of personnel management he's been weak and vacillating.

So, not only has the board succeeded in undermining the coach (and anyone who believes this farce hasn't seriously affected the performance of both Jol and the team is, frankly, mad), their behaviour over the past few years has sent out a clear message to anyone who fancies his chances as Spurs coach/manager; how long do I have before the knives go in my back? Would Hughes, Ramos or anyone else really want to be associated with this bunch of cowboys, or will they just ask 'Do I really need this?' and decide they'd be better off staying where they're appreciated?

Well said SS57 :clap:

 

[whatsappnin]

It pains me to say this but…

It’s over…

Clive Allen until the board of clowns can source a top quality manager (not that I’m convinced they are capable of doing that but what other options do we have).

I think i very sadly agree.:violin: Thankyou Martin but surely you are on borrowed time right now.

 

[tony0379]

go now

 

[Coneilly]

intresting results....

 

[Legend10]

I voted for the 1st option.

And for those people who are blaming our transfer policy is it not the same policy adopted by our neighbours with the difference being we make far far more money available than them?

 

[Stoof]

I voted for the 1st option.

And for those people who are blaming our transfer policy is it not the same policy adopted by our neighbours with the difference being we make far far more money available than them?

It's one thing to blame the transfer policy - which I don't think anyone has done.

It's another to blame the attitude adopted alongside the policy; that of an immediate set of results required.

Don't buy kids if you're not gonna give them time.

 

[Legend10]

It's one thing to blame the transfer policy - which I don't think anyone has done.

It's another to blame the attitude adopted alongside the policy; that of an immediate set of results required.

Don't buy kids if you're not gonna give them time.

Or perhaps don't buy kids if you don't have the ability to coach them.

 

[Stoof]

Or perhaps don't buy kids if you don't have the ability to coach them.

Ooooh. Cutting. :lol:

 

[SpurSince57]

I voted for the 1st option.

And for those people who are blaming our transfer policy is it not the same policy adopted by our neighbours with the difference being we make far far more money available than them?

With the proviso that any comparison between our situation and Arsenal's is totally ludicrous, yes, sort of.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Pretty much, yeah.

School-boy like personnel management. In fact I reckon I could do a better job. Seriously - the way that they've treated what is supposedly the most important non-playing asset is horrific.

Why do you think all the messageboards, pubs and newspaper inches are full of words like "undermined" and "untenable". Well, it's because the Board have completely and utterly undermined Jol, to make his position untenable.

The people who deserve the ultimate finger-pointing are the Board members.

Can't fucking believe your not chairman of the board Stoof. You have truly missed your calling. And with your legal o-level you could negotiate contracts as wel.

The messageboards are also full of words like "jol is tactically inept" and "Jol can't teach people how to defend" and "Jol won't drop his favourites despite them having stinkers" and "Jol keeps playing people out of position when he has better options". etc etc.

You seem to be judging the board on a few hours of unfortunate exposure rather than 3/4 years that have put this club in he best position footballing and financially since probably before you were born.

FFS - We gave away a CL place that was ours to fuck up two seasons ago. We choked at vital stages when leading in all cups last year. We gave away huge headstart last year and have eclipsed it this year. Our defending is getting worse.

Wake up. That shit smell you can detect is called reality and our manager is a major contributor to it.

And Chimbonda, Stalteri, Lee, Zokora, Tainio, Davids, Berbatov, Keane, Murphy, DAVIDS, Jenas, Gardner, Rocha are not kids.

 

[Damian99]

I think in Jols first two seasons things went pretty well. Not much expectation and other than the odd blip ere and there, things went fairly smoothly.

In my opinion a good manager is found out in times like these, and good managers are far and few between(probably why Jols still in his job). I don`t honestly believe, and Jol says he`s turned it around before, and while he has, its never been this dire. I just don`t think there is any comming back from this for either Tottenham or Martin Jol. Its probably best now if the two part company.

 

[Darren A]

Thanks to Rob for posting this on my behalf earlier and many thanks to everyone for their opinions, it's made for interesting reading

 

[Legend10]

With the proviso that any comparison between our situation and Arsenal's is totally ludicrous, yes, sort of.

Care to elaborate why?

After all haven't virtually all of Arse's starting X1 been signed in the last 3 or 4 years.

Or are you rferring to the fact that their players are well coached, disciplined in the way that they play, organised, confident, motivated etc and ours aren't?

 

[SpurSince57]

Care to elaborate why?

After all haven't virtually all of Arse's starting X1 been signed in the last 3 or 4 years.

Or are you rferring to the fact that their players are well coached, disciplined in the way that they play, organised, confident, motivated etc and ours aren't?

Should I need to elaborate?

Because unless you've only been following football for the past two seasons or so, it really shouldn't be necessary.

 

[Legend10]

Should I need to elaborate?

Because unless you've only been following football for the past two seasons or so, it really shouldn't be necessary.

No please do elaborate

I really am genuinely interested to know why you believe that 2 transfer policies that are in essence the same are in reality very different.

I will agree with you that there was a difference in the starting blocks but am interested to hear why you believe that a very young Arse team purchased in the main in the last 3 years is flourishing and how a young Spurs team purchased in the main in the last 3 years at considerably more expense is going backwards at an alarming rate.

It's a genuine interest.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Should I need to elaborate?

Because unless you've only been following football for the past two seasons or so, it really shouldn't be necessary.

Surely SS, you are not denying that we have set out to mimick arsenal's aquisition strategy almost to a tee, including procuring their former head of scouting/recruiting as our DOF.

Signing people like birchichie, Olsen, peckhart, Taarabt, Dervitt, Kaboul, not to mention all the young english players.

The major difference I can see is that their kids seem to be fitter, faster, harder working, play for each other,move better off the ball, more creative and improve for being coached by Wenger.

Whatwas the difference that you refer to.