THE LEVY YEARS – TAKING US FORWARD OR HOLDING US BACK? PART THREE

minesadouble

Drove my Chevy to the Levy
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669
#41
Thanks for all the comments everybody. As I wrote above:

"In my opinion, Levy has made some mistakes (who hasn’t). We can argue about the manager-go-round, the treatment of Jol, the sacking of Harry, the failure to invest during January transfer windows, etc."

I didn't intend to skate over his mistakes but my article was long enough already! I wanted to focus mainly on the financial side because that doesn't get a lot of airtime on football forums, whereas we've had numerous threads on the 'manager-go-round' as I call it, from Jol to Sherwood.

I totally agree that any evaluation of Levy wouldn't be all positives. But my question to myself was, have we progressed or gone backwards (judged with hindsight) during his time? My conclusion was that we've definitely moved upwards, but not necessarily in a straight line ! There have been some dips along the way. Some out of Levy's control - Lasagna-gate, Chelsea fluking CL victory - and some for which he could take some of the blame.
 

Mullers

Unknown member
Joined
Jan 4, 2006
Messages
25,308
#42
Thanks for all the comments everybody. As I wrote above:

"In my opinion, Levy has made some mistakes (who hasn’t). We can argue about the manager-go-round, the treatment of Jol, the sacking of Harry, the failure to invest during January transfer windows, etc."

I didn't intend to skate over his mistakes but my article was long enough already! I wanted to focus mainly on the financial side because that doesn't get a lot of airtime on football forums, whereas we've had numerous threads on the 'manager-go-round' as I call it, from Jol to Sherwood.

I totally agree that any evaluation of Levy wouldn't be all positives. But my question to myself was, have we progressed or gone backwards (judged with hindsight) during his time? My conclusion was that we've definitely moved upwards, but not necessarily in a straight line ! There have been some dips along the way. Some out of Levy's control - Lasagna-gate, Chelsea fluking CL victory - and some for which he could take some of the blame.
There is no doubt that we have gone forward, no doubt at all. It is not the first time I've seen focus on the financial side but yours is certainly the most comprehensive.

Levys mistakes of hiring and firing coaches, director of football, faliure to invest at crucial times, failure to bring in certain players are all things that have to be considered when part of the question is, is he holding us back, because it is arguably his decisions that has held us back during certain periods and arguably even now. So it should be looked at in detail, because success on the pitch brings more finances to the club.

So that's something I'm focusing on.
 
Last edited:

UbeAstard

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 31, 2005
Messages
2,217
#43
g
And the hiring of them.
With Levy it's always 'he made a mistake, ohh everyone makes mistakes, hindsight is a wonderful thing' etc etc. But nobody affords coaches and players the same kind of luxury, weird that.
Hossam Ghaly throws his shirt down, he makes one mistake in anger and he is hounded out of the club. There is no, he made a mistake, ahh lets forgive him, we're all human, we all make mistakes.
It's how dare you throw the shirt down, get the fuck out of the club and don't come back.

That doesn't seem fair to me.
I agree with you on Ghaly and said so at the time.
 

playboypaul

EverTheOptimist
Joined
Jun 22, 2012
Messages
1,677
#46
There is no doubt that we have gone forward, no doubt at all. It is not the first time I've seen focus on the financial side but yours is certainly the most comprehensive.

Levys mistakes of hiring and firing coaches, director of football, faliure to invest at crucial times, failure to bring in certain players are all things that have to be considered when part of the question is, is he holding us back, because it is arguably his decisions that has held us back during certain periods and arguably even now. So it should be looked at in detail, because success on the pitch brings more finances to the club.

So that's something I'm focusing on.
So, do you think Levy is holding us back or taking us forward?
 

Mustard

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2012
Messages
10,781
#47
Thanks for all the comments everybody. As I wrote above:

"In my opinion, Levy has made some mistakes (who hasn’t). We can argue about the manager-go-round, the treatment of Jol, the sacking of Harry, the failure to invest during January transfer windows, etc."

I didn't intend to skate over his mistakes but my article was long enough already! I wanted to focus mainly on the financial side because that doesn't get a lot of airtime on football forums, whereas we've had numerous threads on the 'manager-go-round' as I call it, from Jol to Sherwood.

I totally agree that any evaluation of Levy wouldn't be all positives. But my question to myself was, have we progressed or gone backwards (judged with hindsight) during his time? My conclusion was that we've definitely moved upwards, but not necessarily in a straight line ! There have been some dips along the way. Some out of Levy's control - Lasagna-gate, Chelsea fluking CL victory - and some for which he could take some of the blame.

All you can do is judge him on our performance and achievments/trophy's. We have no idea how someone else/another company would have done because we don't know.

I think judging him/enic on our potential shows some fairly elementary errors and ponts to a fairly poor tenure imo.

And thats without going to the whole mess Enic has made of the new stadium.

Couple that wilth a lack of investment in the team points to a negative. I appreciate the good things such as a world class training facility, although how many players have played in the first team as a direct consequence from there?

Enic is an inestment company. There is nothing they have done without one eye on a return. They are hardly knights in shining armour.

Lets not forget that Levy's total wages from when he took over almost add up to how much Enic spent on buying the entire club. With a loss of stadium capacity to boot.

Now we hear whispers of them wanting to pull out if the right price comes in. Please let's not forget these are business people.
 

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
Joined
Apr 1, 2005
Messages
32,427
#48
All you can do is judge him on our performance and achievments/trophy's. We have no idea how someone else/another company would have done because we don't know.
All you can do is judge him on our performance and achievments/trophy's. We have no idea how someone else/another company would have done because we don't know.

Agreed

I think judging him/enic on our potential shows some fairly elementary errors and ponts to a fairly poor tenure imo.

Compared to what? Since 1974 when Nicholson left we have finished in the top 5, 11 times. 6 of those under Levy.

And thats without going to the whole mess Enic has made of the new stadium.

Yes it's Levy's fault that british law regarding CPO's is what it is.

Couple that wilth a lack of investment in the team points to a negative. I appreciate the good things such as a world class training facility, although how many players have played in the first team as a direct consequence from there?

Currently? Bentaleb, Kane, Townsend, Rose, Cebellos, Mason. Let alone Caulker, Carrol, Livermore. All premiership players that have been a part of our academy in the last 3 years.

Enic is an inestment company. There is nothing they have done without one eye on a return. They are hardly knights in shining armour.

Yes, they always have been. Doesn't mean that what is good for Enic is not good for Spurs. Their greatest return would be if we are successful.

Lets not forget that Levy's total wages from when he took over almost add up to how much Enic spent on buying the entire club. With a loss of stadium capacity to boot.

Levy in total wages has probably earned around £12m (you can check the financials, it's only the last 2 years he's on £2m a year). Enic spent £22m to buy 30% of the club in 2001. Since then they have spent maybe £100m (including £50m invested by Lewis last summer).

Now we hear whispers of them wanting to pull out if the right price comes in. Please let's not forget these are business people.

They are an investment firm and we have allways been for sale. Levy has said so plenty of times.
 

Mustard

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2012
Messages
10,781
#49
All you can do is judge him on our performance and achievments/trophy's. We have no idea how someone else/another company would have done because we don't know.

Agreed

I think judging him/enic on our potential shows some fairly elementary errors and ponts to a fairly poor tenure imo.

Compared to what? Since 1974 when Nicholson left we have finished in the top 5, 11 times. 6 of those under Levy.


compard to nothing. Just don't say they have the done the best than anyone could.

And thats without going to the whole mess Enic has made of the new stadium.

Yes it's Levy's fault that british law regarding CPO's is what it is.

NO, but lest we forget he spent millions on trying to get the olympic stadium, on the most idiotic platform of levelling it and rebuilding it whilst also still buying up land around WHL. And bugging west hams phones....

Couple that wilth a lack of investment in the team points to a negative. I appreciate the good things such as a world class training facility, although how many players have played in the first team as a direct consequence from there?

Currently? Bentaleb, Kane, Townsend, Rose, Cebellos, Mason. Let alone Caulker, Carrol, Livermore. All premiership players that have been a part of our academy in the last 3 years.

All were before that.

Enic is an inestment company. There is nothing they have done without one eye on a return. They are hardly knights in shining armour.

Yes, they always have been. Doesn't mean that what is good for Enic is not good for Spurs. Their greatest return would be if we are successful.

We are not and have arguably achieved more in the 90's than under them. Our biggest successes are for their p/l sheets because of what we have sold.

Lets not forget that Levy's total wages from when he took over almost add up to how much Enic spent on buying the entire club. With a loss of stadium capacity to boot.

Levy in total wages has probably earned around £12m (you can check the financials, it's only the last 2 years he's on £2m a year). Enic spent £22m to buy 30% of the club in 2001. Since then they have spent maybe £100m (including £50m invested by Lewis last summer).

And how much is their net spend?

Now we hear whispers of them wanting to pull out if the right price comes in. Please let's not forget these are business people.

They are an investment firm and we have allways been for sale. Levy has said so plenty of times.
Exactly
 

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
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Messages
32,427
#51
Okay i'll number points as this post will get really weird :sneaky:

1/ it is impossible to say if someone else would have done better or worse. So it is a moo point "please insert Joey gif".

2/ West Ham spent £3m on their Olympic bid. We already had designs in place so most probably cost us less. Should we have gone for it? Very debatable. If we got it we would have a prime piece of land for nothing, our stadium would be well on the way to being built and we could have developed the land in Tottenham. As it stands we no longer have to pay the 106's. But for me the way we went about it was one of Levy's biggest mistakes. There should have been much better communicstion between Spurs and the fans.

3/ If you are saying that those players were developed before the new training complex was introduced, then you cannot judge it's effectiveness as they are the first players to make it since it was built.

4/ What success in the 90's? Yes we need more trophies, totally agree. But we are a much better team.

5 and 6/ We may have sold players, but with the money we bought players. In the 90's I can only remember Sheringham we made a profit on (Ok Gazza if we go to the beginning) the rest we made a loss, because they were crap.
 

Mustard

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Joined
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Messages
10,781
#52
Okay i'll number points as this post will get really weird :sneaky:

1/ it is impossible to say if someone else would have done better or worse. So it is a moo point "please insert Joey gif".

2/ West Ham spent £3m on their Olympic bid. We already had designs in place so most probably cost us less. Should we have gone for it? Very debatable. If we got it we would have a prime piece of land for nothing, our stadium would be well on the way to being built and we could have developed the land in Tottenham. As it stands we no longer have to pay the 106's. But for me the way we went about it was one of Levy's biggest mistakes. There should have been much better communicstion between Spurs and the fans.

3/ If you are saying that those players were developed before the new training complex was introduced, then you cannot judge it's effectiveness as they are the first players to make it since it was built.

4/ What success in the 90's? Yes we need more trophies, totally agree. But we are a much better team.

5 and 6/ We may have sold players, but with the money we bought players. In the 90's I can only remember Sheringham we made a profit on (Ok Gazza if we go to the beginning) the rest we made a loss, because they were crap.

1. Thank You.

2. I guess we'll never see eye to eye on this. Levy went arse about face on this. You get the land then you build. We are not gypies. How many years and counting? And the whole Olympic thing was an embarrassment.


3. Mason? We'll see. But yes of course its a plus. And yes of course it will help, but lets be honest. We are not seeing any fruit as yet. Kane could be the new Shearer. But lets not say that's because of Levy and his training ground. But don't get me wrong. I see the new training ground as Enics best achievment. Going by your argument though its been paid for by Livermore and Hudd. ( Wrongly though )

4. one FA cup and one league cup supercedes 2 league cups. Its all about the glory brother.

5. Don't get your point. We sold players for Enic to make money first. Not for the team to achieve.

On a side note is something happening all I can here is sirens. I live in North London
 

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
Joined
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Messages
32,427
#53
1. Thank You.

2. I guess we'll never see eye to eye on this. Levy went arse about face on this. You get the land then you build. We are not gypies. How many years and counting? And the whole Olympic thing was an embarrassment.


3. Mason? We'll see. But yes of course its a plus. And yes of course it will help, but lets be honest. We are not seeing any fruit as yet. Kane could be the new Shearer. But lets not say that's because of Levy and his training ground. But don't get me wrong. I see the new training ground as Enics best achievment. Going by your argument though its been paid for by Livermore and Hudd. ( Wrongly though )

4. one FA cup and one league cup supercedes 2 league cups. Its all about the glory brother.

5. Don't get your point. We sold players for Enic to make money first. Not for the team to achieve.

On a side note is something happening all I can here is sirens. I live in North London
5. But Enic haven't taken any money out. It has either been reinvested into the squad or infrastructure of the club. you can see this by reading the financials which are online.
 

Mustard

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10,781
#54
5. But Enic haven't taken any money out. It has either been reinvested into the squad or infrastructure of the club. you can see this by reading the financials which are online.

Not sure I totally agree with this when you factor in Levy's wages and the fact they bought up all the loyal fans shares for a pittance so they could 'build a stadium' without the constraints of the stock exchange.... Where is the investment?

There are no financials because they de-listed mate.

Enic will make 100's of millions out of us.

Fact.
 

minesadouble

Drove my Chevy to the Levy
Joined
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Messages
669
#55
There are pretty detailed accounts produced (about 45 pages) that are audited by independent firm (deloittes I think). Although we delisted from stock exchange the company still has to produce accounts for shareholders and third parties. There is no sign of enic taking material amounts out of spurs. The profits have all been invested in players and infrastructure and salaries.
 

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
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#57
Not sure I totally agree with this when you factor in Levy's wages and the fact they bought up all the loyal fans shares for a pittance so they could 'build a stadium' without the constraints of the stock exchange.... Where is the investment?

There are no financials because they de-listed mate.

Enic will make 100's of millions out of us.

Fact.
Please remember that we do these slightly ahead. The June 2014 will be out between Jan and April next year.

http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/upl...cuments/Annual_Reports/annual-report-2013.pdf
 

Mustard

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10,781
#58
Please remember that we do these slightly ahead. The June 2014 will be out between Jan and April next year.

http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/upl...cuments/Annual_Reports/annual-report-2013.pdf

They don't have to and they haven't in the past. They bought up all the shares for a pittance so they are not a plc. They did this under the ruse of it making it easier to build a stadium. You'd have thought they would have bought the land first? I appreciate its difficult and quite unforeseen that you would get something like Archway but it wasn't beyond the world of improbability.

Their strategy is just like everything else they do. Scattergun.

Now we are faced with an uncertain future and rumblings that uncle Joe wants to sell.
 

Mullers

Unknown member
Joined
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25,308
#59
So, do you think Levy is holding us back or taking us forward?
Since we got 4th our league position has got worse and we haven't earned as much as we did when were in the champions league.
We've won one trophy in 14 years which is no better than the Alan Sugar era. The same as Swansea, Wigan, Birmingham city and Middlesborough who have considerably less resources that we do.
Middlesborough and Fulham have been to the final of the Europa cup, we haven't got past the quarter finals.

Portsmouth has been to the FA cup final twice and won it once, Wigan have won it, Southampton has been to the final, Everton has been to the final, West Ham has been to the final, Cardiff has been to the final, Hull has been to the final, Millwall has been to the final and Stoke has been to to final.
We have not won it or been to final for 24 years

Everton have finished in the top 8 more times than we have. They have qualified for the champions league the same amount of times as us.

So I guess the answer to your question is, he is holding us back.
 

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
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#60
Since we got 4th our league position has got worse and we haven't earned as much as we did when were in the champions league.
We've won one trophy in 14 years which is no better than the Alan Sugar era. The same as Swansea, Wigan, Birmingham city and Middlesborough who have considerably less resources that we do.
Middlesborough and Fulham have been to the final of the Europa cup, we haven't got past the quarter finals.

Portsmouth has been to the FA cup final twice and won it once, Wigan have won it, Southampton has been to the final, Everton has been to the final, West Ham has been to the final, Cardiff has been to the final, Hull has been to the final, Millwall has been to the final and Stoke has been to to final.
We have not won it or been to final for 24 years

Everton have finished in the top 8 more times than we have. They have qualified for the champions league the same amount of times as us.

So I guess the answer to your question is, he is holding us back.
Everton have won the league 9 times in there history, we've won it twice. In the last few years we've mostly finished above them. They have never qualified for the Champions League.

I agree we need to win more trophies.
 
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