The Rugby Thread

[E17yid]

I also saw a good discussion in the week about the differences between NZ and the Northern Hemisphere. The argument was that they do not compromise on pace or ball skills -catching/passing etc. In B+ I teams a player might not have these skills but will still get picked for offering something - Scrummaging, lineouts, big tackles, breakdown work, place kicking, physicality - You name it. For them those two skills are non-negotiable, they'll sacrifice a bit and work on those other areas, just so that everyone has those basics - run, catch, pass. Of course, by the time you're at the top level those other skills aren't too far behind either...

Let's be honest, how often do our teams pick scrum halves who cant crisply pass the ball. Or fly halves who cant run and/or pass that well. Or centres who don't pass. Or steady wings who don't really have top end pace. That's before we even get to what the forwards can do...

Look at their first try earlier, could you imagine a Dylan Hartley, Rory Best et al take the ball at ankle height without breaking stride and zipping over in the corner not giving the opposite winger a sniff? In some alternate universe maybe. There is a reason Ben Te'o was never on the radar of the NZ system, he is a 2D player - runs hard, tackles hard, pass... nope. I suspect if NZ had a choice of our players they'd be more likely to go for someone like Tipuric in the backrow or a George Ford or Finn Russell at fly half than the selections that are made.

Also linked to that are the body shapes of players. I don't see many NZ forwards carrying those extra pounds and extra layer of padding, like their counterparts. There's also a lot of Lions players with gym monkey physiques. I cant help but think that NZ players are out there more working on skills and letting what they do on the training pitch get them toughened up and conditioned for elite rugby...

Yep, I think they even separate kids by weight as well as so you don't have massive kids against tiny kids as, like you say, the emphasis is on ball skills. Go and watch some grass roots Stuff over here and they get them into rucks and tackles early on whereas in NZ non contact is played right up until they're 11 or so. Our kids get involved in mass mauls of about 100 kids of about 6 or 7.

Re the hooker point, and he's a back up to Dane Coles who skills wise is twice as good as Cuthbert, for example.

 

[E17yid]

Also, NZ schoolboy rugby is ridiculous. It's a massive deal over there and the competitions they have are extremely good at nurturing and developing talent. We have nothing like that over here. At 12-13, if you're good enough you'll play for a main club and go through academies but in NZ the state secondary schools are like professional clubs. I saw this cool little interview with Dan Carter and they showed him a clip of when he was 16 or whatever playing in a massive derby school boy final and he said (tongue slightly in cheek) that it's more intense than playing for the ABs.

 

[nightgoat]

Are you going to share the joke with the rest of the class, @nightgoat

Just amused by the number of Welshmen you're bringing in/retaining...

 

[nightgoat]

I also saw a good discussion in the week about the differences between NZ and the Northern Hemisphere. The argument was that they do not compromise on pace or ball skills -catching/passing etc. In B+ I teams a player might not have these skills but will still get picked for offering something - Scrummaging, lineouts, big tackles, breakdown work, place kicking, physicality - You name it. For them those two skills are non-negotiable, they'll sacrifice a bit and work on those other areas, just so that everyone has those basics - run, catch, pass. Of course, by the time you're at the top level those other skills aren't too far behind either...

Let's be honest, how often do our teams pick scrum halves who cant crisply pass the ball. Or fly halves who cant run and/or pass that well. Or centres who don't pass. Or steady wings who don't really have top end pace. That's before we even get to what the forwards can do...

Look at their first try earlier, could you imagine a Dylan Hartley, Rory Best et al take the ball at ankle height without breaking stride and zipping over in the corner not giving the opposite winger a sniff? In some alternate universe maybe. There is a reason Ben Te'o was never on the radar of the NZ system, he is a 2D player - runs hard, tackles hard, pass... nope. I suspect if NZ had a choice of our players they'd be more likely to go for someone like Tipuric in the backrow or a George Ford or Finn Russell at fly half than the selections that are made.

Also linked to that are the body shapes of players. I don't see many NZ forwards carrying those extra pounds and extra layer of padding, like their counterparts. There's also a lot of Lions players with gym monkey physiques. I cant help but think that NZ players are out there more working on skills and letting what they do on the training pitch get them toughened up and conditioned for elite rugby...

Interestingly enough watching the u20s final the other weekend, New Zealand were quite the opposite. As a contest (and obviously this is taking into account that England had lost about six or seven players to the senior side's Argentina tour) it was reminiscent of some of our youth teams' matches against the likes of Chelsea and Liverpool where they don't beat us with skill but due to sheer athletic and physical attributes, the sort which will decrease in impact as you work your way up through the age groups.

To a man the New Zealand team were bigger than their English counterparts and pretty much every break was caused by them winning physical battles and breaking tackles, in some cases literally running the England players down (their hooker was an absolute beast) yet they made about 15-20 handling errors in the first half alone.

 

[E17yid]

Just amused by the number of Welshmen you're bringing in/retaining...

There's a good case for neither Kruis or AWJ to start the next test and a Itoje Henderson/Lawes partnership is one I'd be happy with. Personally, speaking though..........

I don't think anyone, even you, can say after this morning that George is showing he's lions class. That's not to say he's been terrible and it's hardly surprising seeing as he's not even played much international rugby let alone lions. If you accept that George is not dead cert to start then you're talking Best or Owens. There's a decent case to be made for Best, he's experienced and decent at the breakdown but I can't ignore his form so far so, again, personally .........

I make no excuses for my bias towards Tipuric but I really think we need him in there.

Even you said yourself that Webb has to be in the frame.

 

[nightgoat]

There's a good case for neither Kruis or AWJ to start the next test and a Itoje Henderson/Lawes partnership is one I'd be happy with. Personally, speaking though..........

I don't think anyone, even you, can say after this morning that George is showing he's lions class. That's not to say he's been terrible and it's hardly surprising seeing as he's not even played much international rugby let alone lions. If you accept that George is not dead cert to start then you're talking Best or Owens. There's a decent case to be made for Best, he's experienced and decent at the breakdown but I can't ignore his form so far so, again, personally .........

I make no excuses for my bias towards Tipuric but I really think we need him in there.

Even you said yourself that Webb has to be in the frame.

I don't think there'll be that many changes. Neither Jones nor Kruis were particularly great and could both lose their place. George was good, especially in the line out. I think we were 100% until he went off.

 

[Arnoldtoo]

There's a good case for neither Kruis or AWJ to start the next test and a Itoje Henderson/Lawes partnership is one I'd be happy with. Personally, speaking though..........

I don't think anyone, even you, can say after this morning that George is showing he's lions class. That's not to say he's been terrible and it's hardly surprising seeing as he's not even played much international rugby let alone lions. If you accept that George is not dead cert to start then you're talking Best or Owens. There's a decent case to be made for Best, he's experienced and decent at the breakdown but I can't ignore his form so far so, again, personally .........

I make no excuses for my bias towards Tipuric but I really think we need him in there.

Even you said yourself that Webb has to be in the frame.

If Gatland thinks that the team he picked is the best one, which presumably he does, then for me he has to start with pretty much the same team and let them prove him right. One or two changes - Itoje surely had to start, doesn't he? - but let the others up their game and make amends.

I wouldn't throw away the plan, I would stick to it and execute it better; up the tempo, meet the AB's on the front foot rather than letting them come on to us, cut out the penalties.

Oh, and push harder!

 

[E17yid]

I don't think there'll be that many changes. Neither Jones nor Kruis were particularly great and could both lose their place. George was good, especially in the line out. I think we were 100% until he went off.

The line out was the 1 and only area he did well in. Overall, though, the front row got done, sadly.

 

[E17yid]

If Gatland thinks that the team he picked is the best one, which presumably he does, then for me he has to start with pretty much the same team and let them prove him right. One or two changes - Itoje surely had to start, doesn't he? - but let the others up their game and make amends.

I wouldn't throw away the plan, I would stick to it and execute it better; up the tempo, meet the AB's on the front foot rather than letting them come on to us, cut out the penalties.

Oh, and push harder!

See how the Tuesday game goes first. Daly and Williams played themselves in against the chiefs so perhaps the team will be different. Like others have said, though, I doubt he'll make too many changes. 1 maybe 2.

Really hope Tips has a blinder and gets the 7 jersey for the 2nd test. It'd be a massive call but how many of us thought Daly would start.

 

[Japhet]

I think the Lions lost a lot when O'Mahoney, George and Te'o went off. Probably all planned subs but the physicality fizzled out at that point.

 

[talkshowhost86]

I think the Lions lost a lot when O'Mahoney, George and Te'o went off. Probably all planned subs but the physicality fizzled out at that point.

Well Garland has said we need to be more physical so I suspect we'll go back to a very tight game plan for the next test.

I expect to see Halfpenny, North and Warburton all come back in (because of their style rather than their nationality before anyone accuses me of accusing Gats of nepotism) and we'll go back to what Garland knows best.

I don't agree with that approach but understandable after being dominated today.

 

[Japhet]

Well Garland has said we need to be more physical so I suspect we'll go back to a very tight game plan for the next test.

I expect to see Halfpenny, North and Warburton all come back in (because of their style rather than their nationality before anyone accuses me of accusing Gats of nepotism) and we'll go back to what Garland knows best.

I don't agree with that approach but understandable after being dominated today.

I was a bit surprised at the number of neck high tackles that were overlooked. Doesn't seem to be much of an issue in the southern hemisphere. No sour grapes though. ABs were different class.

 

[Arnoldtoo]

Team v. Hurricanes

British and Irish Lions: Jack Nowell (England), Tommy Seymour (Scotland), Jonathan Joseph (England), Robbie Henshaw (Ireland), George North (Wales), Dan Biggar (Wales), Greig Laidlaw (Scotland), Joe Marler (England), Rory Best (Ireland, captain), Dan Cole (England), Iain Henderson (Ireland), Courtney Lawes (England), James Haskell (England), Justin Tipuric (Wales), CJ Stander (Ireland).

Replacements: Kristian Dacey (Wales), Alan Dell (Scotland), Tomas Francis (Wales), Cory Hill (Wales), George Kruis (England), Gareth Davies (Wales), Finn Russell (Scotland), Jared Payne (Ireland).

What do we read into that?

 

[mpickard2087]

Team v. Hurricanes

British and Irish Lions: Jack Nowell (England), Tommy Seymour (Scotland), Jonathan Joseph (England), Robbie Henshaw (Ireland), George North (Wales), Dan Biggar (Wales), Greig Laidlaw (Scotland), Joe Marler (England), Rory Best (Ireland, captain), Dan Cole (England), Iain Henderson (Ireland), Courtney Lawes (England), James Haskell (England), Justin Tipuric (Wales), CJ Stander (Ireland).

Replacements: Kristian Dacey (Wales), Alan Dell (Scotland), Tomas Francis (Wales), Cory Hill (Wales), George Kruis (England), Gareth Davies (Wales), Finn Russell (Scotland), Jared Payne (Ireland).

What do we read into that?

I reckon Marler, Best, Henderson, and Lawes have a possible chance of forcing themselves into the 23 if they play well. Most of them have no chance though realistically.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Team v. Hurricanes

British and Irish Lions: Jack Nowell (England), Tommy Seymour (Scotland), Jonathan Joseph (England), Robbie Henshaw (Ireland), George North (Wales), Dan Biggar (Wales), Greig Laidlaw (Scotland), Joe Marler (England), Rory Best (Ireland, captain), Dan Cole (England), Iain Henderson (Ireland), Courtney Lawes (England), James Haskell (England), Justin Tipuric (Wales), CJ Stander (Ireland).

Replacements: Kristian Dacey (Wales), Alan Dell (Scotland), Tomas Francis (Wales), Cory Hill (Wales), George Kruis (England), Gareth Davies (Wales), Finn Russell (Scotland), Jared Payne (Ireland).

What do we read into that?

I still don't know who most of our replacements are.

 

[Arnoldtoo]

I still don't know who most of our replacements are.

Surely you know Cory Hill. Second row. Better than Launchbury. Apparently.

 

[E17yid]

Surely you know Cory Hill. Second row. Better than Launchbury. Apparently.

Except Gats never made any such comment. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

[Arnoldtoo]

Except Gats never made any such comment. Quite the opposite in fact.

Didn't say he did. I'm just still grumpy about making people Lions based on proximity rather than talent.

 

[E17yid]

Didn't say he did. I'm just still grumpy about making people Lions based on proximity rather than talent.

I don't see the big deal seeing as they're not going to get any real minutes, most will get none. They'll be gone by tomorrow evening. I suppose Gats is selfish in the sense that he knows this will be his last Lions tour and he doesn't really care about people saying it disrespects the jersey or whatever.

Also, Gareth Davies is actually decent.

 

[Arnoldtoo]

I don't see the big deal seeing as they're not going to get any real minutes, most will get none. They'll be gone by tomorrow evening. I suppose Gats is selfish in the sense that he knows this will be his last Lions tour and he doesn't really care about people saying it disrespects the jersey or whatever.

Also, Gareth Davies is actually decent.

I suppose. But there's no guarantee that someone like Launchbury will be on the next Lions tour, and it might have been the highlight of his career. It doesn't sit right with me, especially since the two games might have resulted in a place in the Test 15 / 23. AWJ & Kruis didn't exactly cement their places on saturday.