The Rugby Thread

[mpickard2087]

Away all weekend so only just catching up on the England game.

First, lets look at the positives. On a hard and fast track both teams tbf took full advantage at times, played with good attacking intent with width and tempo, and there were some really nice tries scored.

Next, the mitigating circumstances - it's at the end of a long season, and playing at altitude is never easy for the visiting team.

But the negatives and concerns are the main talking point. Another loss isn't good, it's getting worrying, but if we'd been doing the right things and just edged out on the day then ok fair enough. But we're not doing the right things, we keep doing the same bad things.....

Most of it stems from the forwards and defence. In the first 20 mins when we competed hard and were somewhat on the front foot we saw what can be put together and the rugby we are capable of playing. However we just aren't getting that platform often enough in games. The pack isn't punching holes, it isn't getting round the park doing ruck/tackle work, it's not dominant at the set piece, there are way too many passengers. Defensively we are also really passive, no longer do we get up and rush out and make hits, losing shape/structure far too easily, and just generally making things easy for the opposition.

It also didn't help that some spectacular individual errors occurred and got punished severely (Daly's kick out on the full and then grasp at fresh air for instance).

Individually a real mixed bag. Mako was subdued. George was a fat pudding. Sinckler also a bit subdued. Itoje is struggling big time currently. Isiekwe I thought got harshly treated and left us de-powered. Robshaw's time looks up, and if we were choosing one steady campaigner to keep around looks like Haskell, and his ability to fly out of the line and make big hits, was the one... Shields and Curry were ok. Billy V looked unfit and didn't do enough, even with his late efforts. Youngs kicked very badly. Ford got targeted, clung on for dear life, but also set up 3 tries. Farrell was ok but midfield defence is chaotic right now. Slade ditto. Brown scored a very dogged try, but got exposed for pace quite a few times including for at least one try. Daly made some bad errors, but I think 15 is the right spot for him long term, and May didn't always defend well but looked absolutely lethal in attack wherever he popped up and probably had his best game for England in that aspect.

I'd probably leave the backs the same next week. The pack needs several changes potentially, starting with the backrow. but mainly it's a change in tactics, attitude, and getting smart and learning from mistakes. Record-equalling winning streaks seem a long time ago.........

 

[mpickard2087]

I forget that you’ve got Underhill (though I think he might be more of a 6) too and he’s a great prospect. Like the look of Curry but it’s never easy making the step up to international rugby when you’re in your teens but especially hard when your pack isn’t playing well.

I must admit I know you’re not in great form but I thought you’d walk this series 3-0 (with 1, perhaps 2 close games) but you’d have to put the Saffers as favourites now.

Shields has to start the next game, for sure.

Maybe this dip is happening at exactly the right time for you. Time will tell. You need to start winning games, though.

It’s still there for the taking.
Underhill is a 6 I think.

Thing is, there’s actually a fair few English 7’s in the aviva but they’ve not been given a shot. Too late now though as it seems to be considered for openside you either need to be a blindside, number 8 or be under 20 years of age.

Yeah straight away I could name the Willis brothers, the Curry twins and Underhill as all having big potential at 6 and/or 7 - whether that's at the breakdown or making big hits or work rate around the park. But they are young and in a couple of cases injury has disrupted their breakthroughs at international level. We were also unlucky that the other kid from Wasps had to retire after getting injured in a training camp.

But then also solid Prem performers like Wilson and Armand seem to get capped once and then discarded. Previously we've had options like Fraser (now retired), Wallace, Kvesic etc who would have question marks against their games, but again are decent Prem operators and why not find out if they could fulfil a role? Options are there, but for some reason, and not just under Jones, it's been decided to shoehorn anyone else but specialists into certain positions.

 

[DaiT]

Great performance and result from Wales can’t say I was expecting it to be that comfortable. I think we’re the only touring side that’s purely got the WC in mind. Got some really good depth now.

What England would do for one or 2 of Warburton, Tipuric, Navidi, James Davies, Ellis Jenkins. Wish we could spread some of the embarrassment of riches we have at 7 into some other areas of the squad.

Yes it was pleasantly surprising. Who is coaching our backs now? Cant be Rob H can it? We seemed to have some planned moves.

 

[E17yid]

Yes it was pleasantly surprising. Who is coaching our backs now? Cant be Rob H can it? We seemed to have some planned moves.

I know what you mean but it’s still ROb Howley. Amazing I know.

 

[DaiT]

I know what you mean but it’s still ROb Howley. Amazing I know.

Must have had an epiphany then. Our back line when in motion reminded me of what we see in the NRL. Perhaps he has been watching it.

 

[Japhet]

Away all weekend so only just catching up on the England game.

First, lets look at the positives. On a hard and fast track both teams tbf took full advantage at times, played with good attacking intent with width and tempo, and there were some really nice tries scored.

Next, the mitigating circumstances - it's at the end of a long season, and playing at altitude is never easy for the visiting team.

But the negatives and concerns are the main talking point. Another loss isn't good, it's getting worrying, but if we'd been doing the right things and just edged out on the day then ok fair enough. But we're not doing the right things, we keep doing the same bad things.....

Most of it stems from the forwards and defence. In the first 20 mins when we competed hard and were somewhat on the front foot we saw what can be put together and the rugby we are capable of playing. However we just aren't getting that platform often enough in games. The pack isn't punching holes, it isn't getting round the park doing ruck/tackle work, it's not dominant at the set piece, there are way too many passengers. Defensively we are also really passive, no longer do we get up and rush out and make hits, losing shape/structure far too easily, and just generally making things easy for the opposition.

It also didn't help that some spectacular individual errors occurred and got punished severely (Daly's kick out on the full and then grasp at fresh air for instance).

Individually a real mixed bag. Mako was subdued. George was a fat pudding. Sinckler also a bit subdued. Itoje is struggling big time currently. Isiekwe I thought got harshly treated and left us de-powered. Robshaw's time looks up, and if we were choosing one steady campaigner to keep around looks like Haskell, and his ability to fly out of the line and make big hits, was the one... Shields and Curry were ok. Billy V looked unfit and didn't do enough, even with his late efforts. Youngs kicked very badly. Ford got targeted, clung on for dear life, but also set up 3 tries. Farrell was ok but midfield defence is chaotic right now. Slade ditto. Brown scored a very dogged try, but got exposed for pace quite a few times including for at least one try. Daly made some bad errors, but I think 15 is the right spot for him long term, and May didn't always defend well but looked absolutely lethal in attack wherever he popped up and probably had his best game for England in that aspect.

I'd probably leave the backs the same next week. The pack needs several changes potentially, starting with the backrow. but mainly it's a change in tactics, attitude, and getting smart and learning from mistakes. Record-equalling winning streaks seem a long time ago.........

There were a few selection issues IMO. Robshaw for starters. It's going to be a fast game on a hard dry pitch, not sloshing through the mud and Robshaw was simply not quick enough around the pitch. The Saracens contingent all looked like they should be on the beach somewhere and whatever was the point of swapping Brown and Daly? Thought Youngs had a truly dreadful game and DeKlerk ran rings round him As you said, Billy V doesn't look fit. Need some major changes this week. I'd like a back row of Curry, Hughes and Shields for starters.

 

[Arnoldtoo]

Shields gets a start. No Robshaw

England team to face South Africa: Elliot Daly (Wasps); Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins); George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers); Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Jamie George (Saracens), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Brad Shields (Hurricanes/Wasps), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Ben Spencer (Saracens), Danny Cipriani (Wasps), Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)

 

[teok]

I think we are now getting to see the other side of the coin with ej's management style. I remember reading some one saying when he was appointed that it starts off well then every one burns out and the wheels fall off.

Nick Isiekwe is a ridiculously talented young lock who could be playing in the u20's world cup and getting rave reviews as the next big thing.

Instead he got subbed off on his debut after half an hour (away in SA at altitude in one of the intimidating places to play rugby in the world). Now he is completely dropped from the matchday squad (we don't even have lock on the bench).

Luckily I think nick is quite a mature guy. It still seems like crazy management how ever you look at it.

 

[SugarRay]

I think we are now getting to see the other side of the coin with ej's management style. I remember reading some one saying when he was appointed that it starts off well then every one burns out and the wheels fall off.

Nick Isiekwe is a ridiculously talented young lock who could be playing in the u20's world cup and getting rave reviews as the next big thing.

Instead he got subbed off on his debut after half an hour (away in SA at altitude in one of the intimidating places to play rugby in the world). Now he is completely dropped from the matchday squad (we don't even have lock on the bench).

Luckily I think nick is quite a mature guy. It still seems like crazy management how ever you look at it.

He’s a great talent. The problem would be he is way above the under 20 tournament now. He wouldn’t learn anything from dominating players below his standard.

 

[werty]

Great performance from us. Probably should have won by more. O'Mahony was immense.

 

[Japhet]

Great performance from us. Probably should have won by more. O'Mahony was immense.

Great stuff from Ireland. Agree that O'Mahony was superb. Dodgy yellow card made the last few minutes a real nail biter though. Refs need to be consistent though and the starting point is to be consistent in the game you're reffing. Can't call a deliberate knock on twice with one yellow and one not.

 

[werty]

Great stuff from Ireland. Agree that O'Mahony was superb. Dodgy yellow card made the last few minutes a real nail biter though. Refs need to be consistent though and the starting point is to be consistent in the game you're reffing. Can't call a deliberate knock on twice with one yellow and one not.

Australia actually had two deliberate knock ons, though I'm not sure if either was clear cut, and no yellow to Ireland's one. They were lucky not to be given a yellow down by their goal line in the second half too.

Should make for a great decider. Australia look threatening every time they get it but Ireland have been great at dominating possession this year and starving the opposition of the ball.

 

[Arnoldtoo]

Good try, but where were the defenders?

Edit... And again!

 

[mpickard2087]

More of the same really so far. Backs get to put the ball through the hands and we're pretty dangerous, but we get scraps of front foot ball to work off. Defence has been better this week but still some missed tackles at key moments, but mainly poor discipline and silly errors just means we stay under the cosh. We don't seem to be able to have any significant periods of controlling the game.

 

[E17yid]

Those post match interviews were a bit of a car crash. That woman was pissed off. Eddie handled it quite well tbf.

Wales leapfroged Australia and England to 3rd in the world rankings, apparently. Our development squad performed really well but Argentina were pretty poor, tbh.

 

[E17yid]

I see my 2 favourite human beings Marler and Brown conducted themselves with dignity after another loss by getting into a confrontation with some fans.

Stay classy.

 

[Japhet]

More of the same really so far. Backs get to put the ball through the hands and we're pretty dangerous, but we get scraps of front foot ball to work off. Defence has been better this week but still some missed tackles at key moments, but mainly poor discipline and silly errors just means we stay under the cosh. We don't seem to be able to have any significant periods of controlling the game.

Discipline was dreadful again. Mako and Hughes yellow cards were both stupid and unnecessary and you can afford 20 minutes with 14 against any top side. Bad decision by Farrell to not take 3 pts to at least get the scoreboard to move and then the second 3 pts turned down would have given a ray of hope. England aren't at the races at all at the moment.

 

[mpickard2087]

Discipline was dreadful again. Mako and Hughes yellow cards were both stupid and unnecessary and you can afford 20 minutes with 14 against any top side. Bad decision by Farrell to not take 3 pts to at least get the scoreboard to move and then the second 3 pts turned down would have given a ray of hope. England aren't at the races at all at the moment.

Itoje (again) also did a couple of really stupid things, and the Mako yellow card incident I thought he too could easily have been sent to the bin for aiming a kick/trip at the SA 9. If it was me I think all three of those should be dropped for stupidity (and I think the two Sarries boys desperately need taking out of the firing line anyway...), because this ill-discipline is a repeat problem and an example needs to be made of a few of them.

If it's not a crisis yet, we're not too far off. Just so many facets of play that are misfiring. First off we simply must get the forwards and defence to find that ultra intensity you get at top level test matches and start competing more. Because at the moment we're just getting blown away and constantly playing the game on the back foot. Our backline is set up to attack (three playmakers at 10-12-13 is questionable even on a perfect day), but are rendered pointless if they don't have the platform to work off.

But it's all over the park we have problems... Ball carriers are not taking the ball at any pace, still often taking contact whilst isolated, and are carrying in terrible upright positions that allow them to get smashed. Defensively too passive and too many missed tackles, and collectively not slowing enough ball or being enough of a nuisance at the breakdown. Set piece - scrum, maul, lineouts - just not making any impression. Tactically some really poor stuff - as you say we were struggling for a foothold yet turn down points, we constantly kick ball away to the opposition because we struggle to go through phases currently and carry and make yards, 'Captain' Farrell whose sole act seems to be to scream at the ref - way to get him on side. Selections are very questionable, either completely shagged (Mako, Itoje, Robshaw), clearly unfit (Billy), or rushed back too early (Hughes, Youngs), others such as George and Slade aren't taking their chances... And that's all before we get to daft individual errors that are hitting us hard also.

The only small positives are that Curry, whilst I don't think he is totally ready yet and still needs to keep developing and filling out, has battled well and offered some nuisance at the breakdown, and May currently looks as dangerous as anyone in world Rugby with ball in hand. But mostly it's just shit, on top of shit, on top of more shit.

 

[Japhet]

Itoje (again) also did a couple of really stupid things, and the Mako yellow card incident I thought he too could easily have been sent to the bin for aiming a kick/trip at the SA 9. If it was me I think all three of those should be dropped for stupidity (and I think the two Sarries boys desperately need taking out of the firing line anyway...), because this ill-discipline is a repeat problem and an example needs to be made of a few of them.

If it's not a crisis yet, we're not too far off. Just so many facets of play that are misfiring. First off we simply must get the forwards and defence to find that ultra intensity you get at top level test matches and start competing more. Because at the moment we're just getting blown away and constantly playing the game on the back foot. Our backline is set up to attack (three playmakers at 10-12-13 is questionable even on a perfect day), but are rendered pointless if they don't have the platform to work off.

But it's all over the park we have problems... Ball carriers are not taking the ball at any pace, still often taking contact whilst isolated, and are carrying in terrible upright positions that allow them to get smashed. Defensively too passive and too many missed tackles, and collectively not slowing enough ball or being enough of a nuisance at the breakdown. Set piece - scrum, maul, lineouts - just not making any impression. Tactically some really poor stuff - as you say we were struggling for a foothold yet turn down points, we constantly kick ball away to the opposition because we struggle to go through phases currently and carry and make yards, 'Captain' Farrell whose sole act seems to be to scream at the ref - way to get him on side. Selections are very questionable, either completely shagged (Mako, Itoje, Robshaw), clearly unfit (Billy), or rushed back too early (Hughes, Youngs), others such as George and Slade aren't taking their chances... And that's all before we get to daft individual errors that are hitting us hard also.

The only small positives are that Curry, whilst I don't think he is totally ready yet and still needs to keep developing and filling out, has battled well and offered some nuisance at the breakdown, and May currently looks as dangerous as anyone in world Rugby with ball in hand. But mostly it's just shit, on top of shit, on top of more shit.

All good points, particularly about the Saracens contingent which I mentioned earlier in the thread. They seem to think they will streamroll their way without giving 100% mentally and physically like they do in the Aviva League and that simply won't happen in South Africa. Changes have to be made. Also the point about ball carriers is spot on. When I was playing the back line was set up steep when attacking and you ran onto a flat ball at speed. The obsession with 10 playing flat seems to have resulted in the whole team taking the ball at a standstill (and in an upright position). I also think the back line needs a mix of brawn and brain, particularly if you're being starved of ball. Ford is such a weak link defensively and will always be targetted by big men. I hope to God Cipriani gets a start next time out. Don't really know what we can do upfront apart from Mahler and Cowan-Dickie. We struggle to cope with their power as it is with Billy or Hughes at 8 so can't see many changes there. In DeKlerk they have an excellent player who more than anything aggravates the fuck out of the opposition - I'd certainly want to lump him if I was on the pitch.

 

[E17yid]

I think it was stupid taking Farrel, Itoje, Ford, Mako and co.

Should’ve given them the summer off and bled some youngens. I know England were coming off the back of a poor 6N but there wouldn’t have been any massive pressure to win the series with more of a development squad out there.

Having said that this poor run of form isn’t just down to fatigue. As with most periods of bad form a lot of it is mental which is why Eddie has to take the flack.

At least we can all agree Faletau is the best number 8 in the world now.