The Rugby Thread

[teok]

Eddie Jones finally admits to 'mental' problems....
Six Nations 2019: Eddie Jones seeks help to fix England's mental weakness - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47603228

It's specifically game management at 9/10 when the game plan isn't working. They don't seem to be able to think on their feet. Against any top team that is suicidal.

 

[ehalse]

Definitely seems to be an issue. Lost their heads a few times this six nations.

Still think they have the potential to do well at the RWC if they get the mental side sorted out.

 

[E17yid]

Eddie Jones finally admits to 'mental' problems....
Six Nations 2019: Eddie Jones seeks help to fix England's mental weakness - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47603228

I like how he deflects blame onto the 2015 WC. Very Mourinho-esque

 

['O Zio]

It’s inexcusable they let them back in. No one in the world had Scotland coming back into that. Even Gregor Townsend said after the game that at HT their goal was to just win the 2nd half as they had given up.

Agree. Absolutely inexcusable. I can understand how when you've got such a big lead that you can let the odd try, maybe 2, past because you get complacent/stop concentrating so much, it's not acceptable but it happens, but to let 3, 4, 5 scores past is just ridiculous. Surely after the second one you wake back up and get your game-head back on and finish the job off? Absolute joke but fair play to scotland, just a shame England managed to level it up at the end.[/QUOTE]

 

[Japhet]

Agree. Absolutely inexcusable. I can understand how when you've got such a big lead that you can let the odd try, maybe 2, past because you get complacent/stop concentrating so much, it's not acceptable but it happens, but to let 3, 4, 5 scores past is just ridiculous. Surely after the second one you wake back up and get your game-head back on and finish the job off? Absolute joke but fair play to scotland, just a shame England managed to level it up at the end.

[/QUOTE]

I think that Wales tying up the Grand Slam before the Scotland game probably caused a substantial mental drop off in the England team. Cruising to a huge half time lead made it even worse.

 

['O Zio]

I think that Wales tying up the Grand Slam before the Scotland game probably caused a substantial mental drop off in the England team. Cruising to a huge half time lead made it even worse.

Absolutely. I mean, I can understand how these things happen up to a point, but I just feel that if we seriously want to consider ourselves as potential challengers for the WC or even just things like winning the grand slam, then that kind of mental complacency/weakness just can't happen. I'm sorry but this isn't some thrid division semi-pro team, these are people that are meant to be among the most elite players in the world so I find that lack of mental strength inexcusable. Whether the fault lies with the management or the captaincy I'm not sure, but that kind of attitude and complacency shouldn't exist within the squad of such a high-level team in the first place, and when it started to rear it's head during the game, the senior players and leaders on the pitch should've been there grabbing everyone by the scruff of the neck and sorting it out once it became apparent certain players were getting complacent.

 

[Japhet]

Absolutely. I mean, I can understand how these things happen up to a point, but I just feel that if we seriously want to consider ourselves as potential challengers for the WC or even just things like winning the grand slam, then that kind of mental complacency/weakness just can't happen. I'm sorry but this isn't some thrid division semi-pro team, these are people that are meant to be among the most elite players in the world so I find that lack of mental strength inexcusable. Whether the fault lies with the management or the captaincy I'm not sure, but that kind of attitude and complacency shouldn't exist within the squad of such a high-level team in the first place, and when it started to rear it's head during the game, the senior players and leaders on the pitch should've been there grabbing everyone by the scruff of the neck and sorting it out once it became apparent certain players were getting complacent.

The problem was that the player who showed the worst lapses of concentration and made the most costly unforced errors was Owen Farrell, the Captain. As I said earlier, I think it was an instance where we missed Robshaw and Hartley. It was a very poor display in that we had our foot right on Scotlands neck but seemingly couldn't be bothered to finish the job off. If we learn that lesson it will serve us well and the final try would have given a massive boost under the circumstances.

 

[mpickard2087]

It's specifically game management at 9/10 when the game plan isn't working. They don't seem to be able to think on their feet. Against any top team that is suicidal.

Yep. Youngs can be very good or very bad. Sometimes, as we saw against Wales and Scotland, even within the same game. It's always a lottery as to which version of him turns up on the day. That he has amassed so many starts and caps is due to Danny Care being even more random and unpredictable, and the lack of anyone at domestic level consistently pushing for a place/conservative selections.

St Owen of Farrell has always been a robotic player, who to be fair has slowly (given he's been granted nigh on a decade at test level to develop) improved as a player and is at a decent standard for a 10 in an attacking sense and can run initial phases of play very smoothly. He's clearly got a robust temperament, will run through brick walls for the team, and does have big involvements in a game, so I can see why coaches put great stock in him, but he's never been a great thinker/tactician, or leader I'd argue, and has always struggled to control a game when under the cosh and play gets stuck over multiple phases. He's a good player with flaws (some quite big for a 10, which is why every coach at international level has never settled on playing him there), not the anointed one that the media and casual fans believe him to be.

 

[E17yid]

On more important matters Jeremy fucking Guscott has picked his team of the tournament and he’s got 6 Englishman and 5 Welshman. Dude is on crack. Has got Daly at 15 over Williams. Curry over Tipuric to. I’m going to write him a strongly worded letter now.

 

[E17yid]

Yep. Youngs can be very good or very bad. Sometimes, as we saw against Wales and Scotland, even within the same game. It's always a lottery as to which version of him turns up on the day. That he has amassed so many starts and caps is due to Danny Care being even more random and unpredictable, and the lack of anyone at domestic level consistently pushing for a place/conservative selections.

St Owen of Farrell has always been a robotic player, who to be fair has slowly (given he's been granted nigh on a decade at test level to develop) improved as a player and is at a decent standard for a 10 in an attacking sense and can run initial phases of play very smoothly. He's clearly got a robust temperament, will run through brick walls for the team, and does have big involvements in a game, so I can see why coaches put great stock in him, but he's never been a great thinker/tactician, or leader I'd argue, and has always struggled to control a game when under the cosh and play gets stuck over multiple phases. He's a good player with flaws (some quite big for a 10, which is why every coach at international level has never settled on playing him there), not the anointed one that the media and casual fans believe him to be.

The problem is, though, Ford is the epitome of average.

Farrell can be inconsistent but he’s capable of winning you games all on his own. You don’t have any back who comes close to that let alone a 10.

I’d be worried about your total lack of leaders in the forwards too. Vunipola looks shot, Wilson? Curry is just a kid. Sinkler is a loose cannon and easy to wind up. George still a novice. Lawes is a big player and you’ve got Itoje and Mako coming back I suppose

 

[mpickard2087]

The problem is, though, Ford is the epitome of average.

Farrell can be inconsistent but he’s capable of winning you games all on his own. You don’t have any back who comes close to that let alone a 10.

I’d be worried about your total lack of leaders in the forwards too. Vunipola looks shot, Wilson? Curry is just a kid. Sinkler is a loose cannon and easy to wind up. George still a novice. Lawes is a big player and you’ve got Itoje and Mako coming back I suppose

Ford is also a good player with flaws. Neither will win us a world cup at 10, in my opinion, together they largely cover each others weaknesses and play better. It was also the combination that put together our best run of results. We might have to go back to it.

Farrell will only win games for you in a tight contest decided by goal kicking, which happens less and less these days as more team decline shots at goal and kick to the corner.

I don't think the forwards are a problem currently, collectively or individually. Our own ball has been much, much, more secure in the last six months and we're a threat at the breakdown now with Curry. Even in the Wales game, whilst it was attritional and not many metres were made, we still had secure ball we senselessly booted away, and against Scotland we had quick ball throughout. Set piece has been much more solid too. Fitness looks to be an issue, we see an absolutely mad rush defence in the first half that is killing teams, but we are then much more passive, start to fall off tackles, and the line starts to buckle in the second. I guess that's not helped though when decision making is going to pot and all control of a game is lost.

 

[E17yid]

Ford is also a good player with flaws. Neither will win us a world cup at 10, in my opinion, together they largely cover each others weaknesses and play better. It was also the combination that put together our best run of results. We might have to go back to it.

Farrell will only win games for you in a tight contest decided by goal kicking, which happens less and less these days as more team decline shots at goal and kick to the corner.

I don't think the forwards are a problem currently, collectively or individually. Our own ball has been much, much, more secure in the last six months and we're a threat at the breakdown now with Curry. Even in the Wales game, whilst it was attritional and not many metres were made, we still had secure ball we senselessly booted away, and against Scotland we had quick ball throughout. Set piece has been much more solid too. Fitness looks to be an issue, we see an absolutely mad rush defence in the first half that is killing teams, but we are then much more passive, start to fall off tackles, and the line starts to buckle in the second. I guess that's not helped though when decision making is going to pot and all control of a game is lost.

Fitness would definitely be a concern. We put a lot of teams away just on fitness alone.

I think you’d be absolutely mad to not bring Edwards in as defence coach. I think Pivac is mad not keeping him on.

 

[Japhet]

Fitness would definitely be a concern. We put a lot of teams away just on fitness alone.

I think you’d be absolutely mad to not bring Edwards in as defence coach. I think Pivac is mad not keeping him on.

Would love Edwards back. Dreadful when we lost him.

 

[Japhet]

Ford is also a good player with flaws. Neither will win us a world cup at 10, in my opinion, together they largely cover each others weaknesses and play better. It was also the combination that put together our best run of results. We might have to go back to it.

Farrell will only win games for you in a tight contest decided by goal kicking, which happens less and less these days as more team decline shots at goal and kick to the corner.

I don't think the forwards are a problem currently, collectively or individually. Our own ball has been much, much, more secure in the last six months and we're a threat at the breakdown now with Curry. Even in the Wales game, whilst it was attritional and not many metres were made, we still had secure ball we senselessly booted away, and against Scotland we had quick ball throughout. Set piece has been much more solid too. Fitness looks to be an issue, we see an absolutely mad rush defence in the first half that is killing teams, but we are then much more passive, start to fall off tackles, and the line starts to buckle in the second. I guess that's not helped though when decision making is going to pot and all control of a game is lost.

Ford is too much of a target defensively for my liking. It puts a huge extra burden on the open side flanker when you have a 10 that is continually being lined up. I'm not sure why Lozowski hasn't been more prominent and Cipriani seems to have been thrown under a bus. Marcus Smith could be interesting but I'm not convinced he's any stronger than Ford.

 

[E17yid]

Would love Edwards back. Dreadful when we lost him.

What do you mean lost him? Was he at England previously or do you just mean lost him to us?

Pivac only named forwards and back coaches (Jon Humphreys and Stephen Jones) so I’m hoping he sees sense and keep Edwards on but I’m not holding my breath.

 

[talkshowhost86]

On more important matters Jeremy fucking Guscott has picked his team of the tournament and he’s got 6 Englishman and 5 Welshman. Dude is on crack. Has got Daly at 15 over Williams. Curry over Tipuric to. I’m going to write him a strongly worded letter now.

I saw this earlier and my immediate thought was that he must have been watching a different competition.

Daly and Williams both had great tournaments but surely you give it to the guy in the Grand Slam team?

And Finn Russell? All very odd.

 

[mpickard2087]

Ford is too much of a target defensively for my liking. It puts a huge extra burden on the open side flanker when you have a 10 that is continually being lined up. I'm not sure why Lozowski hasn't been more prominent and Cipriani seems to have been thrown under a bus. Marcus Smith could be interesting but I'm not convinced he's any stronger than Ford.

Lozowski seems to have taken the Slade route and settled at centre rather than 10. He's also in Jones' bad books after the autumn series I think. Cipriani is fair enough tbh, the guy clearly doesn't want it enough - 2015, just as he gets back into England contention after a wasted career, he gets in trouble with the law, 2018 he does the same thing again. I can completely see why Jones/RFU have decided it's just not worth the hassle.

 

[talkshowhost86]

I think Farrell at 10 is fine for England. I just wonder whether he should have the pressure of captaincy taken off him and allow him to concentrate on managing the game with his boot rather than his mouth.

As others have said, England just seemed to lack the ability to react in games when things went against them. The Wales game was a great example of that. The tactics weren't working and England didn't react. Obviously that's not all Farrell's fault, but you feel a captain does need to have a big part in managing that.

 

[talkshowhost86]

So @E17yid is Scott Baldwin any good?

Quins have signed him for next season and all I know about him is that he's not great with lions.

 

[E17yid]

So @E17yid is Scott Baldwin any good?

Quins have signed him for next season and all I know about him is that he's not great with lions.

Meh, he’s alright. Definitely not a terrible player just not a particularly great one either. He can do a job over a short period as cover if he’s your first choice playing 25 plus games then you might be a bit disappointed. He’s alright, though.

I wondered wtf you were on about re the lion comment as I was 99% he had never played for the lions then googled it and I do remember that thing with the lion when I saw the vid again. Can’t believe I forgot it. Actually, I can believe it seeing as I can barely remember my own name most days.