The Sherwood recurrence

avonspurs

MoPo's lover
Joined
Apr 28, 2006
Messages
4,072
#41
You are aware he has a Premiership winners medal from a team he captained right? If he donked you on the head with that you may realise he probably does have the character to succeed.
Succeeding as a player (one of many in a squad) does not automatically translate into having the right character to succeed as a manager.
 

spud

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2003
Messages
4,224
#42
Tim is not perfect and where he perhaps falls down the most is his media skills, and it saddens me because of this performance and this performance alone it has cost him his job.
If you really believe that Sherwood has done a great job and that his only fault lies in his dealings with the media then I'm lost for words. We have clearly been watching a different team since he took over.
 

Gaz_Gammon

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2005
Messages
16,047
#43
Then add to the pot the fact that Ade did what Ade does and tore strips AVB in front of the other players, now, what action was AVB to take? he had to show Ade who was boss. Do you really think that AVB wanted that or do you think he would have loved to have had Ade at his disposal?
Total guff.

You discipline a player, not isolate him. At one hundred and eighty thousand pounds a week do you seriously think that Levy was going to sit and watch his team score something like eleven fucking goals in fourteen games and write Ade a cheque each week?

Your making it sound like AVB was isolating Ade from the team for Ade's own good. What guff you write. AVB was found out by Levy just like he was at Chel$ea by the Mad Russian. AVB talked about his learning curve after his firing and that he had changed. Truth is he hadn't changed at all and was quite rightly fired.

Along comes an ex-player, winner of a Championship who recognises talent. He springs Ade free from exile and kaboom, Ade scores more goals than you can shake a stick at.

Discipline a player by all means but belittle him like AVB did and in the end he got what he deserved. Levy wasn't going to shell out that much each week for a player to sit in the stands every week. Your deluded if you think otherwise.
 
Last edited:

TottenhamMattSpur

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
9,637
#44
Succeeding as a player (one of many in a squad) does not automatically translate into having the right character to succeed as a manager.
Being captain of a team that wins the league is different to just being in it.
Although didn't help Roy Keane but we all know he's just a straight up thug.
 

Smokinhotspur

Active Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
Messages
246
#45
Now then, think about it, take away Bale, combine that with the 7 new players with no PL experience that BALDINI got in for AVB to use (NOT avb's preferences) and remembering that this is a results based game where losses get you sacked he had to come up with a solution and that was to try and not get beat while bedding in the newbies. AVB was perfect for us, young, tactically aware, a winner in his own right albeit in a different country, is was circumstances beyond his control that changed his destiny. Do you really believe that what we saw before he got sacked was the prefered way he liked or wanted to play?
Disagree. No PL experience is a red herring in my opinion. City have brought in Toure, Negredo and Fernandinho over the last couple of years. None of these guys had previous PL experience but I'm sure we will all agree they are amognst the very top players in the league. In the past we have also brought in the likes of VDV and Berbatov that have delivered straight away and Modric and Sandro that did the business once settled. It is less about PL experience and more about getting players with the right attributes, character and fit into the way you want to play. The issue is more about the scale of change we looked to implement in one go (only Wenger highlighted the technical risk associated with so many ins and outs in one go when everyone else was talking about us losing Bale but becoming a better team at the start of the season). Also not sure the proper homework was done in terms of the qualities of the players we needed as Baldini had hardly been in the job two minutes and was signing players willy nilly. Yes AVB may not have got all of his wishes but we are led to believe that he specifically wanted Paulinho and Soldado and let's be honest neither has consistently justified their value so far....

also disagree with the point about style of play. One of the frustrations with AVB was not only that we were playing terribly but he did not seem to acknowledge that there was a problem. When challenged he would say things like we created lots of chances and have the most shots on goal in the league ignoring the fact that these were mainly wild speculative off target shots from distance from the likes of Townsend and we were rarely opening teams up. Or he would point to a high possession percentage which ignores the fact that most of this was in front of the opposition midfield and mainly sideways or backwards. I am no big fan of TS but at least he recognises that our style of play needs to be improved regardless of stats and even positive results at times......
 

avonspurs

MoPo's lover
Joined
Apr 28, 2006
Messages
4,072
#46
Being captain of a team that wins the league is different to just being in it.
Although didn't help Roy Keane but we all know he's just a straight up thug.
True. But then being a captain of a team that won the league does not necessarily make a good manager. It does make him aware of the pressures, obv., as a player which should give him an advantage when it comes to man management. However, there are some very good managers that haven't been in league winning teams, etc. and some who have who have made woeful managers (Shearer anyone?!?!)

I suppose its a case of what TS took from his time as a player and how he translates that into his management. Hopefully he'll find out soon.....but at a different club ;)
 

UbeAstard

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 31, 2005
Messages
2,211
#47
Disagree. No PL experience is a red herring in my opinion.....
I dont agree, I think premier league experience does matter if your trying to integrate too many from outside it at once. I do think it can be overstated though.
I agree with you on Toure, he would be a top player quickly in any league but Negredo? If he was at our club he would be the same as Soldado, I think being at City masks that a bit
 

Frozen_Waffles

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2005
Messages
1,197
Thread starter #48
If you really believe that Sherwood has done a great job and that his only fault lies in his dealings with the media then I'm lost for words. We have clearly been watching a different team since he took over.
Cannot remember at what point I said he was doing a great job? And I actually said "where he falls down the most" does not mean he has been a legend in all other respects.

I am basically stating that 4 months is not much of a chance and he has been judged unfairly. I see elements of him that I like. Please do criticise my article, I enjoy it, but don't state arguments to things I have not said.
 

Frozen_Waffles

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2005
Messages
1,197
Thread starter #49
Ok have decided to do better with the formatting:


I suppose I have a different definition of 'turmoil' - - turmoil, to me, was living in the 80's and listening to us having to win at Barnsley to try to get enough points to survive. This is where I do agree with pro-TS'-ers )) - we are too quick to change managers. In this case, however, I'd rather we gave time to a proven manager, with a track record (or, at the very least, A record) instead of putting our chips with a manager who has none of that. Personally, I think we sacked AVB too soon.

I was but a nipper in the 80’s, so cannot really judge that. I think my earliest memory was Lineker scoring a hat-trick against Norwich. Though I did not really understand football at that point and for a few years after (I probably still don’t). We have given experienced managers the job (Santini/Ramos/AVB) big name managers the job and they have struggled, why not give it to an inexperienced manager… how much worse can it get? Even though I did not like the style of AVB, I would have given him at least until the end of the season as well.

Unfortunately, I have a very untrustworthy view of players. I think they are always looking at the next big payday (in the vast majority of cases) and that loyalty no longer exists (except for fans and the club). Even having continued success and paying top-dollar doesn't guarantee keeping your best players (just look at Rooney and Man Utd). Personally, I love to see home-grown players come through but I don't see them as being any more (or less) loyal than players coming from abroad (as an example, does being a fan count for anything? A player may be a lifelong, fanatical Spurs fan but be born in, say, Spain whereas a player coming through our ranks may have their ultimate wish as playing for their lifelong club, Arsenal [spit])

The Rooney thing is a good one, I would have sold him at United because one player is not bigger than the team. Player power now is immense. Again probably an age thing because I am still slightly hopeful that some players are loyal.

However, those mistakes haven't all been under TS's tenure so does AVB get given slack for some of these? As for tactics, of course they have an impact - high defensive line anyone? As does playing the right personnel for the right opponents and, indeed, scouting your opponents instead of saying that it wouldn't show you something you didn't already know.

If AVB scouted opponents – what did he do with the info, I may be wrong about this but he seemed to play the same style of football, high line, possession, one up top etc – every time. Again though would have given him to the end of the season.

agree, he most definitely knows more than I do. He has the time to make it part of his life. My point is that he's still learning and the PL is an awfully harsh place to learn. I kinda blame Levy for this; for putting him in this position but I don't believe he was anything other than a temp manager (despite signing an 18mth contract), what with the WC coming up. He may turn out to be a very good manager; he may turn out to be a crock of sh*t; or one of those in the middle who will find their level below the PL. I just don't want to find out with him being the manager of my club.

It is a gamble in the sense he has no premiership management experience and he will make mistakes, but he knows the club and has been there for 5 years, I would even suggest he knows spurs as well as anyone and cares as much as us fans as well. It was still a calculated risk from Levy and one that I think has not totally failed yet.

he's not been as bad as some say but he has been poor this season. Not sure why that is as he started well. I think the downturn with AVB was because he relied a lot on the FBs to give width and Roses pace was good for that. AVB never had a real plan B when we lost him (one of his negative traits).

I still don’t think he is has been that bad. He is still young and learning as well.

its a fault a lot of people online have, both pro and anti-TS). It has worked and long may it do so

Weird thing about it is I am not really pro Sherwood, nor pro Redknapp, or pro AVB…. I just want are managers to get more time and the stick that TS gets is over the top imo.

but they have the games managed/experience to have that ego. Sherwood doesn't.

I know but I am sure they were quite egotistical at the start as well (Redknapp/Ferguson), just saying it does not mean too much. Not a great quality I admit though.
 

TottenhamMattSpur

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
9,637
#50
Does anyone here at all believe he was EVER going to be the gaffer after this season ended? The 18 month connect was to massage his ego and nothing more. He didn't want to be called a caretaker and that's all it was.
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Joined
Sep 2, 2004
Messages
5,747
#51
This article is seriously flawed.

It represents Sherwood and Poyet has victims and tries to show them in a human light whereas presents AVB as some sort of robotic foreign toff.

If you are going to write a piece asking for fans and directors to be more patient with young managers you cant pick and choose which young managers it applies to.
 
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Messages
213
#52
Succeeding as a player (one of many in a squad) does not automatically translate into having the right character to succeed as a manager.
But the original comment said he does not have the type of character to ever succeed. There was no reference from the original post or my own to say about being a successful player or manager. I think it's pretty clear that statement is nonsense.
 

markieboy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2013
Messages
1,356
#53
I don't wish to come over all insensitive and such, but he doesn't have to answer every single question he's asked by the media. He's embarrassing himself and most fans every time he opens his mouth.
I didn't like AVB when he was at Chelsea,always found his interviews boring and full of pseudo intellectual bullshit.
So when he came here I knew his interviews would bug the shit out of me.
Guess what I did?
I never watched a single interview that the man gave while he was at Spurs..............I judged him on what the team did on the pitch.
There is this new invention called a remote control...........you really should use it.
 

kidby33

Active Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Messages
329
#54
I to cannot believe the stick Sherwood comes in for esp from our own fans he makes Campbell seem actually adored , but some on here make the point about his result ratio against his predecessors , but lets be honest here take away the top five and the rest are all there to be beaten , when we have come up against the better teams well we all know , As much as Sherwood shows his passion for the club , its not and will not be enough to make us a better team able to compete with the premier best , Let me give you an example nobody can deny what Dalglish ment to Liverpool could he have done this season what Rogers as done , Yes lets be more respectful to our manager but don't think that passion beats experience knowledge and no how.
 

CrazyHeart

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2013
Messages
2,341
#55
Honestly people - don't you think we deserve better?! A rookie on a learn-as-you-go plan is not the way forward for us. Sherwood needs to get some credentials, get the experience of success and heartbreak at a lower club and make his bones before taking on such an assignment.

If some wet-behind the ears rookie took over ANY company as general manager, the LAST thing anybody would say is 'Aw shucks... he's a good guy, let's give him more time, one day he may get it right!', while sales, marketing and distribution suffer and the company slides down the Fortune 500 list...

Spurs isn't a flight simulator for someone who hasn't flown before - this is our club, and I cannot believe so many here are happy to settle for mediocrity instead of hoping for a quality manger with proven credentials.

Can Sherwood turn things around and prove to be a prodigious talent that will shock us all? Maybe - but the odds are so stupidly against this, and I for one am not willing to sacrifice our performance and results just to find out!
 

JoeT

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
3,813
#56
This really does my head in, people just amaze me sometimes with their lack of insight and reasoning.

Its funny how AVB was so perfect for us to begin with wasnt it, In the season that AVB got us our highest ever points total we were playing some really great attacking football, the reason? Bale.

Now then, think about it, take away Bale, combine that with the 7 new players with no PL experience that BALDINI got in for AVB to use (NOT avb's preferences) and remembering that this is a results based game where losses get you sacked he had to come up with a solution and that was to try and not get beat while bedding in the newbies. AVB was perfect for us, young, tactically aware, a winner in his own right albeit in a different country, is was circumstances beyond his control that changed his destiny. Do you really believe that what we saw before he got sacked was the prefered way he liked or wanted to play?

Then add to the pot the fact that Ade did what Ade does and tore strips AVB in front of the other players, now, what action was AVB to take? he had to show Ade who was boss. Do you really think that AVB wanted that or do you think he would have loved to have had Ade at his disposal?

Personally i think AVB will go on to be a great manager for a club that backs him all the way and stands by him.
 

JoeT

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
3,813
#57
This really does my head in, people just amaze me sometimes with their lack of insight and reasoning.

Its funny how AVB was so perfect for us to begin with wasnt it, In the season that AVB got us our highest ever points total we were playing some really great attacking football, the reason? Bale.

Now then, think about it, take away Bale, combine that with the 7 new players with no PL experience that BALDINI got in for AVB to use (NOT avb's preferences) and remembering that this is a results based game where losses get you sacked he had to come up with a solution and that was to try and not get beat while bedding in the newbies. AVB was perfect for us, young, tactically aware, a winner in his own right albeit in a different country, is was circumstances beyond his control that changed his destiny. Do you really believe that what we saw before he got sacked was the prefered way he liked or wanted to play?

Then add to the pot the fact that Ade did what Ade does and tore strips AVB in front of the other players, now, what action was AVB to take? he had to show Ade who was boss. Do you really think that AVB wanted that or do you think he would have loved to have had Ade at his disposal?

Personally i think AVB will go on to be a great manager for a club that backs him all the way and stands by him.
Hi 'Bennys': Although I agreed with your point that it was more Bale's skills rather than AVB's coaching that achieved "great attacking football" last season, I question much of what you followed up with...
How do you KNOW that Baldini "got in " players for AVB?
Last week I read a post that stated that Tim Sherwood sat on a Spurs "player selection committee", and so was partly - if not totally -responsible for the players he had to work with. I questioned whether the poster knew where the source of this was and whether this was a fact and never received an answer.
People on here - over and over - state their opinions on the performance of Club Personnel and the like based on nothing more than rumour and here-say. Over time this becomes 'fact' and as more and more of these 'facts' are argued, so this site goes on in ever decreasing (and repetitive) circles.
So, was it IN FACT Baldini, or a Selection Committee that included Tim Sherwood, who recommended or current crop of players to Chairman Levy? If it was one or the other, then opinions on the performances of both our current and past Coaches will vary accordingly.
 

14/04/91

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
1,846
#58
A lot of people on this site (including me) long for continuity.

And I also think a lot of people on this site (including me) want to give all of our summer signings more time to prove themselves.

How is that going to happen when our current coach has publically slated them and said he wants to bring in new players with premier league experience??!
He's basically advocating more wholesale change and may well have shot himself in the foot by saying so.
 

Danners9

Important First Team Player
Joined
Mar 30, 2004
Messages
12,185
#59
I wonder if the people in the media go home and consider what the effects of their ill thought out judgements and how they impact people’s lives.

..........

Last night I watched the after match interviews of two young managers that were literally close to tears. Gus Poyet an ex Spur who played in the premier league for years and is held in high regard by two of the biggest clubs in English football, has taken on a job from a club who have changed manager on a regular basis and have made some horrific appointments to a club in constant turmoil. Then I see another young English manager given an opportunity of a lifetime to manage a big club. Well I say opportunity, he has been given 4 months and is now apparently finished.

Tim Sherwood takes over this club halfway through the season, a club in turmoil one who has changed the manager on a consistent basis, in some cases against the wishes of its fans. He was given the permanent job not a caretaker position, let’s remember that.

....

It’s a pity we cannot sack the fans, because to be honest you have had a mare…. Your constant badgering for Sherwood to be sacked, pretty much from when he started.

.....

Tim is not perfect and where he perhaps falls down the most is his media skills, and it saddens me because of this performance and this performance alone it has cost him his job.

However we all now know that next season another high profile manager will be hired who does not know the club or the league or the players, not given time to settle and sacked within two years, and if he does well he will move on to a bigger club. I suppose that’s the Spurs way nowadays, makes me lose interest in football if I am honest.
A few bits to address. I've cut out the bits I don't really care about.

Media, no, they don't. It's about ratings or sales figures, hits, followers, anything related to their job and not someone else's. Football is very high profile and as a result they will make the smallest thing into something newsworthy, regardless of whether it is true, false or somewhere in between.

Poyet's team is bottom of the league and in a terrible run of form that stemmed from an excellent victory against their neighbours. From that game it is really distressing (if you're a Sunderland fan) to see defeat after defeat when they should have pushed on and definitely should not be in this position. It leads you to wonder about either his ability to manage the club or the club environment itself, given what happened under Di Canio.

As for Sherwood. The media and his ability are linked, but fan perception is also quite fair. Why should we, a team aiming for Champions League qualification every season, endure a manager cutting his teeth in a high profile Premier League job. His first senior job. Let that sink in for a second. His first job. 'I see another young English manager given an opportunity of a lifetime to manage a big club', exactly, given, or won, as if it's a competition. He hasn't earned it, he hasn't had the chance to earn it. That decision to hand over the keys to the dressing room to a novice has meant this season is a write off.

Spurs have been thrashed many times this season, more than I can remember in other season, under both AVB and Sherwood. As have many other teams, in fairness; Man City and Liverpool are deadly going forward. However, the team was also 3-0 down to WBA at the weekend before a stirring comeback, 2-0 to Southampton, even 1-0 to Sunderland is poor because of the goal conceded. What do they do during the week that leaves the players switched off at the start of a match?

Last Saturday we have Tim's team conceding twice in the opening 4 minutes to a bottom half team and Timbo comes on screen after the game to call the defending 'horrrrrrendous' with a smirk and silly voice effect. On camera. We have already seen him ridicule the club's record signing - 'what about Lamela?' 'who?', and 'how is his english coming along?' 'que?'. It's embarrassing.

Sherwood should lose his job at the end of the season, it is a disgrace he was given it in the first place although we can assume why - World Cup coming up, targets employed until afterwards and needing a stop gap - so it makes sense. You say permanent role rather than caretaker, yes, that is true, but his contract already had 18 months to run so this was more of a change in job title and a promotion with a guaranteed payoff of - let's say - 12 months. It also diffuses the speculation for a while. He could have taken a step back after the season to learn from the new man but his comments in the media don't seem to lend themselves to that opportunity, he is burning his bridges and showing such arrogance that his CV does not support.

Arsenal concede a crap goal vs West Ham on Tuesday. Are you Tottenham in disguise, sing the Hammers.
West Ham concede a crap goal vs Arsenal a bit later. Are you Tottenham in disguise, sing the home fans.

We're a joke to other fans and an insignificance to other teams. Paper tigers, Jose said, because of the huff and puff of the team but not doing anything else. Sherwood himself is part of the problem, we can pick up points and get away with scraping wins but his comments humiliate the players and the fans. Players must come in the next day and wonder why they bothered.

I can't wait for the season to end and for us to begin another (probably false) dawn in August.

We need some direction, strong leadership and 'additions in key positions', as Levy said in the financial statement, I hope that is left back, striker and manager. The base of the team is strong but as you go further up it starts to wobble until it's swaying in the wind.

I hope the club put points over pounds and sort things out early. History proves otherwise but you never know. Levy won't like being humiliated, but whether he and Joe have the ambition to go for it properly instead of counting the cash remains to be seen.
 
Last edited:

gloryglory

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
Messages
1,533
#60
I like that this thread has gone on for a long time.

I think levy was too quick to give up on Graham, Jol and AVB. But I admired his decisiveness with Ramos and Santini, and Hoddle he gave if anything too long. Then there's Redknapp, whose sacking I understood and was ambivalent about. So all in all the record is mixed, not plain bad.
 
Top