The solution to our problems (I think)

[Stavrogin]

Why is Keane an enigma? I thought he was just shit now? There's certainly been nothing enigmatic about how truly eyeball-scratchingly God-awful his recent performances have been.

I suppose his flappy attempts to fly are still rather a mystery, though.

Why is he shit now? The Man's an enigma!

 

[rez9000]

Everyone goes on about Keane being crap. But the evidence suggests otherwise. In terms of games per goal, he has our second best striker out of the four. Now to be fair, Berbatov has only played twenty games, so his stats will be a little skewed. Let's say that Berbatov starts firing reglarly, then he'd probably become best of the four. That would put Mido second, Keane third and Defoe LAST. Yet, game after game, it's 'Defoe should start, Defoe should start'. Am I alone in thinking that he still hasn't cured that laziness he has? Or his inherent tendency to keep straying offside?

Keane always operates best either when he's got something to prove or his confidence is high. At the moment, his (and the rest of the team's) confidence is in the toilet, so he's having trouble. Get a smooth game going and he's lethal.

 

[SpurSince57]

yes i am, but since im a younger spurs fan, i understand my view is not as important as yours.. ho hum.

Nothing to do with your age. I was just wondering what you are basing this faith on.

Defoe has had one sensational year for us. In the two years since, he's failed to reproduce that form in the league. He's had 55 shots this season and scored 5 goals from open play. This is actually worse than last season, when he managed 1 goal from every 8 attempts. Is he going to convert more chances in a 'proper footballing team'? If so, why?

 

[doubledecker]

I do agree that Malbranque shouldnt play on the left in a 4-4-2 and voiced this some time ago, he is a liability on the left because of his non-defensive capablities. I'm not sure that Malbranque is rounded enough as a footballer to play in the Centre of Midfield. Fulham FC did not do it because of this reason i'm quite sure, he played on the right a similar situation to Backham in that respect.

I don't agree with the idea that Jermaine Jenas should play as a defensive midfielder, it would take away to many aspect from his game. IMO Huddletone is a defensive midfielder and should be used only as that, Tainio, Zokora, are the others.

I like many other SC member have watched spurs and have come to a conclusion that we should not have any more than two little players/non-battlers in the team at anyone time, from midfield to attack Ie.. Defoe, Malbranque, Keane, Lennon should never all play together.

Looking at the squad it is abit unbalance, we dont have the correct squad members (left winger) to play 4-4-2 correctly like Man Utd eg. There for 4-3-1-2 OR 4-3-3 should be tried.

IMO two optional teams 4-3-1-2

...................Cerny
Chimbonda Dawson Gardner Assou-Ekotto
.......Jenas Huddlestone Zokora
..................Lennon
.......Berbatov........Defoe

4-3-3

...................Cerny
Chimbonda Dawson Gardner Lee
.....Jenas Huddlestone Zokora...
Lennon..........................Malbranque
...............Berbatov


And for the 4-4-2 lovers (so you dont bite my head off)

.................Cerny
Chimbonda Dawson Gardner Assou-Ekotto
Lennon Jenas Zokora Tainio
............Berbatov Defoe

There's one common flaw in all of your 3 teams. A midfielder who can't pass, tackle, head or shoot and has the first touch of a Doherty.

I would go with : AWAY:

Robbo
Chimbs Dawson Rocha Lee
Ghaly Jenas Tainio
Lennon Malbranque
Berbatov

HOME:
Robbo
Chimbs Dawson Rocha Lee
Malbranque Jenas Tainio
Lennon
Berbatov Defoe

 

[double0]

There's one common flaw in all of your 3 teams. A midfielder who can't pass, tackle, head or shoot and has the first touch of a Doherty.

I would go with : AWAY:

Robbo
Chimbs Dawson Rocha Lee
Ghaly Jenas Tainio
Lennon Malbranque
Berbatov

HOME:
Robbo
Chimbs Dawson Rocha Lee
Malbranque Jenas Tainio
Lennon
Berbatov Defoe

To say he cant pass or tackle is incorrect. He does harrass players, covers centre backs and his much more disciplined than a certain belgium/french player

 

[double0]

And our strikers are totally exempt from criticism, of course.

Our strikers compaired to others in the premiership are doing okey. Goals from other positions are whats failing abit. The Defence as a whole has scored 2 goals, midfield including all the change of players have scored in the league 12-13 goals (might have that figure incorrect) , yes the strikers could do much better, Berbatov has to score more goal away from home, the same should be said for Defoe. Keane and Mido hmmm the latter has been injuried.

The service to the strikers isnt very good, Robbo should stop those long punts.

 

[nidge]

Our strikers compaired to others in the premiership are doing okey. Goals from other positions are whats failing abit. The Defence as a whole has scored 2 goals, midfield including all the change of players have scored in the league 12-13 goals (might have that figure incorrect) , yes the strikers could do much better, Berbatov has to score more goal away from home, the same should be said for Defoe. Keane and Mido hmmm the latter has been injuried.

The service to the strikers isnt very good, Robbo should stop those long punts.

The teams as a whole is to blame for our poor goalscoring record at the moment because the strikers are scoring when they do get chances, the midfield don't get in positions around and in the box from which they can score and free kicks around the opposition box and xorner have been poor so our defense hasn't chipped in with enough.

And robbo should stop punting it long but, at the same time the defense has to provide him with another option. I hardly ever see one of our fullbacks show for the ball when robbo has possession.

Wow it really is easy to blame anyone you want for our results this season :wink:

 

[rigg the yid]

Do ya reckon that Jol, Hughton and Allen brainstorm formations like this?

It seems to me that no matter how fun it is to post our dream or problem solving solutions, but they will still put out the same same old 4-4-2. Which IMO is preferable to 4-5-1.

The main problem is not the formation it seems to be that some of the players bottle it.

What we should do is support the team and management. And do our best to respect their decisions afterall they work with the players all week and (I would hope) are more qualified than any of us to pick the best team.

COYS.

 

[Stavrogin]

Nothing to do with your age. I was just wondering what you are basing this faith on.

Defoe has had one sensational year for us. In the two years since, he's failed to reproduce that form in the league. He's had 55 shots this season and scored 5 goals from open play. This is actually worse than last season, when he managed 1 goal from every 8 attempts. Is he going to convert more chances in a 'proper footballing team'? If so, why?

Well, In terms of the quality of chances produced we must we way down amongst the dregs.

I would be highly frustrated being a forward in our team. They do shoulder a lot of the blame for poor movement etc. but still...

 

[AW?]

Time is the solution in my eyes.

Patience is the answer.

 

[SpurSince57]

The teams as a whole is to blame for our poor goalscoring record at the moment because the strikers are scoring when they do get chances, the midfield don't get in positions around and in the box from which they can score and free kicks around the opposition box and xorner have been poor so our defense hasn't chipped in with enough.

And robbo should stop punting it long but, at the same time the defense has to provide him with another option. I hardly ever see one of our fullbacks show for the ball when robbo has possession.

Wow it really is easy to blame anyone you want for our results this season :wink:

The problem is we are not converting chances, or not converting enough of them. Only five clubs have had more shots on goal; twelve have a higher conversion rate. Ours is a not-very-good 11% (actually better than Liverpool's, but they've created more chances than anyone else). If we had matched Reading's 16% we'd have 44 goals, not 29, and there would be very little wailing and gnashing of teeth here on SC. The contribution from midfield and defence has been indifferent, as it was last season, but nearly 40% of our chances—103—have fallen to Berbatov and Defoe, and they've put just 11 of them away, excluding Defoe's penalties. If Robinson's form has been less than acceptable, that's barely any better.

By way of comparison, last season Defoe, Keane and Mido put 1 in 6 of their combined chances away.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Im not missing the point, I'm answering the question. muffwah said he couldn't understand why people were getting Zokora's back, so I pointed out numerous reasons why. Also whilst you might not be saying he is the next Vieira, there are people that have stupidly high opinions of him. I've been trying to lay of the guy recently, but NickTopSpurs said he thinks he is our best midfielder and Spursking said he thinks he is the best we've ever had at the club. Therefore it is difficult to restrain myself from explaining, that he is far from that.

The players that you say he is better or more valuable than have either left the club or hardly played. How can I blame our poor season on Murphy? The guy has hardly played and when he has, other than the Cardiff game he's done well. The same goes for TT. I see our major problem as the CM and Zokora has been our most regular starter there. You blame Robbo, Daws and Jol, but they all helped us finish 5th last season, whilst Zokora was busy helping guide St Ettiene to 13th. Jol took us to 9th in his first season, having finished 14th the season before and 5th last season, our highest ever Premiership finish. He hasn't suddenly become a bad coach. Maybe Robbo and Daws (I don't think he has been that bad at all this season) were just as bad last year, but the difference was we had a decent DM protecting them.

This season we have seen weaknesses all over the park, but these are highlighted due to our inability to control games from the middle of the park. The other areas are important and perhaps we do need to stregthen there, but they are not as key as the problem we have in the middle when Zokora plays.

We've never lost when Zokora hasn't featured, winning 8 and drawing three.
We played our best game in Europe at Besiktas without Zokora.
When Zokora doesn't play we have a goal difference of +5 and when he does it is -13.
We average 1.2 pts per game with him and 1.5 pts per game without him.
We won our only away game without Zokora.
We have strengthend all round from last year yet we are 11th now having been 4th this time last season.
Zokora is our only midfiled to have neither a prem goal or assist.
St Ettiene are challenging for the CL, having not replaced him, followng finishing 13th last year.

Surely all these things can't just be a big coincidence? the simple fact is no matter what team we put out, if Zokora is in it we concede more and score less. If you watch carefully you'll see he doesn't link the deffence and attack well enough. BMJ even mentioned this as our main problem in a Dutch interview he did after the Scum game recently. Neither does he offer the defence sufficient protection. You say i'm making him the scapegoat, but I'm just pointing what the problem is. It's not rocket science. There isn't any point arguing with you as it isn't your fault. You didn't by him and to be fair you have recently been judging his performaces more objectively than in the past.

But surely you have to accept that it is not all Zokora's fault.

He has not had the benefit of playing with the far more capable defensive players of Davids & Tianio & Jenas as Carrick did last season. Our most common midfield 4 last year were those four. As a result we were much more defensively solid in midfield. Compare that to who Zakora has had to play with most of the season:

Huddlestone 19 yo rookie who is not the most mobile

Lennon 18 yo rookie who is not defensive at all

Malbranque 26 yo right midfield, playing on the left - drifting to the right.

Ghaly 23/4 yo floater with skill but hardly a defensive rock.


Surely when compared to our midfield last year you can mitigate this somewhat. Would we be having this conversation if Zokora had been playing next to Carrick or Davids or Jenas and Tianio all season. Probably not.

Last season we were much less attacking and played much less expansively than we have for alot of this season. We have sacrificed some solidity (we ground out many results last year even at home) for some flair. Lennon & Malbranque have become regulars in place of more defensive options that were selected for much of last year.

 

[chrissivad]

The problem is we are not converting chances, or not converting enough of them. Only five clubs have had more shots on goal; twelve have a higher conversion rate. Ours is a not-very-good 11% (actually better than Liverpool's, but they've created more chances than anyone else). If we had matched Reading's 16% we'd have 44 goals, not 29, and there would be very little wailing and gnashing of teeth here on SC. The contribution from midfield and defence has been indifferent, as it was last season, but nearly 40% of our chances—103—have fallen to Berbatov and Defoe, and they've put just 11 of them away, excluding Defoe's penalties. If Robinson's form has been less than acceptable, that's barely any better.

By way of comparison, last season Defoe, Keane and Mido put 1 in 6 of their combined chances away.

i do agree that our conversion rate is poor, and im not trying to justifie it, but...

What those stats dont show is what the chances were like.

Are they 20yard snap shots when one of our strikers have gotten in to a ard of space, or a one on one.

I cant remeber us having a huge amount of great goal scoring chances, a lot of 1/2 chances though. We need to create better goalscoring chances to score more. Strikers can only feed on what they are given.

 

[joey55]

But surely you have to accept that it is not all Zokora's fault.

He has not had the benefit of playing with the far more capable defensive players of Davids & Tianio & Jenas as Carrick did last season. Our most common midfield 4 last year were those four. As a result we were much more defensively solid in midfield. Compare that to who Zakora has had to play with most of the season:

Huddlestone 19 yo rookie who is not the most mobile

Lennon 18 yo rookie who is not defensive at all

Malbranque 26 yo right midfield, playing on the left - drifting to the right.

Ghaly 23/4 yo floater with skill but hardly a defensive rock.


Surely when compared to our midfield last year you can mitigate this somewhat. Would we be having this conversation if Zokora had been playing next to Carrick or Davids or Jenas and Tianio all season. Probably not.

Last season we were much less attacking and played much less expansively than we have for alot of this season. We have sacrificed some solidity (we ground out many results last year even at home) for some flair. Lennon & Malbranque have become regulars in place of more defensive options that were selected for much of last year.

He did play with the more deffensive players Carrick did. At the start of the season we didn't have Malbranque and he played with TT and Davids. We did even worse then, than we are doing now! Defence isn't the only prblem though, we aren't scoring goals when Zokora plays either. He doesn't turn defence into attack, due to his limited passing range. When he plays with the Hudd watch how close they play together. It is pathetic, the Hudd has to drop deep to recieve the ball. If Zokora wasn't there the Hudd would have been deep all the time, in his best position. He can link the deffence and attack. When JJ plays with Zokora they are too far apart.

Take the 2nd game against the Scum. In that game until Mido scored they had 72% of possession. That to me is impossible to get my head around. On an bad day teams will usually have 45% and the oppositon 55%. This was because we had no one in the middle to help us keep the ball, to keep things ticking over. In the past you've said Zokora should be our Deschamps. Deschamps was also a limited passer, but the got on the ball and made sure his team had and kept possession. He didn't just make deffensive tackles, he went out and won the ball and then made 60-80 simple passes each game, just to make sure his team kept the ball. Some people (and this to me was the hardest so swallow) praised Zokora after that game. On idiot desrcibed him as immense. They judged him purely on making a few defensive tackles and making about 20 passes. It was as if they has totally ignored what he failed to do. LAst season for us to play any team and have such little possession would have been unthinkable. Against Utd on Sunday, whilst losing 4-0 we also had only 40% of possession at home! Teams keep the ball by controlling the middle of the park. LAst season, other than against Blackburn and Bolton, we did that in most games.

That is the key difference between this year and last year. By the way Carrick and Zokora would have made a dreadful partenership, in the way the Hudd and Zokora do. CArrick likes to sit deep. Basically in Premiership 442, Zokora isn't good enough. He could play in a 3 man CM, as all he'd have to do then is make deffensive tackles and simple passes. It's is not all Zokora's fault, but he is the player who has undoubtedly had the biggest negative effect on us. If we had spent the money we spent on him, on one of any number of other midfield players we could have in the summer, we'd be in the top 6 now instead of 11th.

 

[joey55]

BC, again Zoko played with TT and JJ, as I pointed out, he did earlier in the season. We had the same problems to day we have most games. We can't control the middle. The anchor should be the heartbeat of the team, linking everything together, protecting the back 4 and then turning defence into attack, but this doesn't happen. You can look for every reason under the sun, but ultimately, until we have a midfielder that can take control and set the tempo we will go on playing poorly. The Hudd has shown he can do this, but he is still so inexperienced. I think until he is ready we must look to change our system to something like I suggested at the start of this thread.

 

[Bobishism]

Doesn't that make Zokora one of Martin Jol's most rated players?

 

[joey55]

Doesn't that make Zokora one of Martin Jol's most rated players?

I know that you know Jol has had little choice but to play Zoko, because i read just yesterday, someone else explaining this to you in another thread. Though I suspect you were aware of the injury problems we've had in midfield and you just want to provoke, which I've noticed you like to do.

 

[Bobishism]

I accept your surrender.

 

[kishman]

http://home.skysports.com/list.aspx?hlid=408224&plid=14516&clid=6&cpid=8

Zokora needs to be a man. Live up to his word.

 

[joey55]

I accept your surrender.

BMJ should have tried saying that when he shook hands with Niel Warnock at the end of the game.