The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

Blake Griffin

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Quite a few players seem to have been kept on just make up the numbers and play in the under 23 and the UYL.
not the uyl, all of the players in that squad are worth their place at the club. the u23s though we just hang onto players for far too long in order to do our "best by them" which is all well and good but not when it's at the expense of those younger and more talented.
 
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Steven Gerrard in an interview on BT Sport says 'to get in and stay in a top 6 club you have to be World Class'. What is he on about? He needs to be careful what he says as he has influence and people will listen to him and agree, and hold that standard over academy players. How can he go around saying that, when he is coaching an u18s side, how do they expect to ever get through. He is also putting more justification in them not getting chances.
I think what he probably meant was international class. In that you’ve pretty much got to be good enough to get into an international squad and stay there if you want to stay in a top six squad after breaking through - a la Winks..
 

IGSpur

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Quite a few players seem to have been kept on just make up the numbers and play in the under 23 and the UYL.
That as well as to provide experience for the u23s. Look at it this way the team is missing however many players as Poch doesn't want them to play. People say if you're lucky you get one quality player per year group but even excluding the ones that have only recently gone on loan, we are still missing 3/4 of what are considered our best u23 players. We also aren't even playing the best of our u19 group or u18s but are filling out the squad with experienced players who won't make it. It makes no sense.

As Windy said when Sherwood was here, we'd have players out on loan but when they weren't or between loans they play u21s. You'd also have the best u21s players playing in the team and supplement it with the best u18s. Most of the players playing today wouldn't have made those teams.
 

coys200

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Surely surely Foyth KWP Nkoudou Playing in U23 has to be more beneficial than not playing. I really can’t understand the logic at all.
 

IGSpur

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I think what he probably meant was international class. In that you’ve pretty much got to be good enough to get into an international squad and stay there if you want to stay in a top six squad after breaking through - a la Winks..
Maybe but it is a careless use of a phrase which will have people nodding their head, and trotting out the phrase as an excuse not to use an academy player. Either way, how can a player know our prove they are international class without playing.

Was Kane international class when he played against Hearts? Was he international class when he started the 6 games at the end of Sherwood's reign? Or was he after bagging EL goals then doing it in the PL. Most didn't think he should play for England until he was 15 goals deep in the PL. So that's like saying Kane wouldn't come through as he wasn't international class.

We don't even buy players that are international class, so why expect that of an academy player?
 

ljinko888

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Steven Gerrard in an interview on BT Sport says 'to get in and stay in a top 6 club you have to be World Class'. What is he on about? He needs to be careful what he says as he has influence and people will listen to him and agree, and hold that standard over academy players. How can he go around saying that, when he is coaching an u18s side, how do they expect to ever get through. He is also putting more justification in them not getting chances.
I hope the messages he conveys to his players are more subtle than to the media. I can't stand the way former pro's go on about mentality as if from the moment they arrived to their first training session with the first team they became men.

Mentality comes with experiences. Not just in football but in life.

Young people need to nurture their talents first and foremost. And they need adults to facilitate a healthy environment for it to flourish.

It's just part and parcel of life. You might get a youngster learning the trade at work who is very shy and makes a few errors but in time they'll feel more confident in that environment. People like Gerrard would do well to remember they were once at the bottom of the hierarchy.

He was given a chance and the platform to introduce himself, show his qualities, make mistakes and learn from them. Not everyone gets that opportunity.
 
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Maybe but it is a careless use of a phrase which will have people nodding their head, and trotting out the phrase as an excuse not to use an academy player. Either way, how can a player know our prove they are international class without playing.

Was Kane international class when he played against Hearts? Was he international class when he started the 6 games at the end of Sherwood's reign? Or was he after bagging EL goals then doing it in the PL. Most didn't think he should play for England until he was 15 goals deep in the PL. So that's like saying Kane wouldn't come through as he wasn't international class.

We don't even buy players that are international class, so why expect that of an academy player?
I’d suggest we were barely a top 6 team under later AVB and Sherwood though. Our squad had major holes in it, and we were in mass transition, giving Kane the opening he needed.

It would be quite hard to see that happening at any of the current top 6, although United had a minor transition under LVG which allowed Rashford to come in.

Possibly Arsenal will have a transition period post-Wenger and might open the door to youth depending on the type of manager they go for.

I think Gerard’s point is fair, although, badly put across. The challenges facing academy players at the top clubs are bigger than ever before.
 
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spursfan77

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I’d suggest we were barely a top 6 team under later AVB and Sherwood though. Our squad had major holes in it, and we were in mass transition, giving Kane the opening he needed.

It would be quite hard to see that happening at any of the current top 6, although United has a minor transition under LVG which allowed Rashford to come in.

Possibly Arsenal will have a transition period post-Wenger and might open the door to youth depending on the type of manager they go for.

I think Gerard’s point is fair, although, badly put across. The challenges facing academy players at the top clubs are bigger than ever before.
Plus what does it say to those international players who are on the bench if they are left sat there and a kid is brought on? It would be completely demoralising. So whilst I want to see Poch play more kids it's not always easy. He has to be faced with aspects of selection like this. People forget that.
 

IfiHadTheWings

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I think a lot of the issues with managers playing the youth ahead of ‘experienced internationals’ is that once you get a kid starting ahead of said player the high wages are put to waste and the potential fee for selling the player dramatically drops and in this era where the money is ridiculous i suppose the hierarchy is not going to be happy with a massively depreciating asset being paid a huge sum purely to train.

Just my 2 pence.
 

IGSpur

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I’d suggest we were barely a top 6 team under later AVB and Sherwood though. Our squad had major holes in it, and we were in mass transition, giving Kane the opening he needed.

It would be quite hard to see that happening at any of the current top 6, although United had a minor transition under LVG which allowed Rashford to come in.

Possibly Arsenal will have a transition period post-Wenger and might open the door to youth depending on the type of manager they go for.

I think Gerard’s point is fair, although, badly put across. The challenges facing academy players at the top clubs are bigger than ever before.
I agree and disagree at the same time. While I do accept it is harder to break into a better team, we still sign and give opportunities to non-international players and squad players. Those are the positions I only suggest young players should get firstly. If they do well then it speaks for itself they will start overtaking first teamers, but I have never advocated dropping a performing first teamer in order to just give a young player a chance. It is counter productive, I want Spurs to win trophies, not to top the academy development table.

I know signing players is not an exact science but I believe certain gambles are more worth it than others, so an example of the two situations above where despite our improvement I believe academy players could have got chances.

Signings
Veljkovic could have got a chance instead of signing Stambouli
Oduwa could have gotten a chance instead of signing N'Jie
Edwards could have gotten a chance instead of signing N'Koudou

The minutes those signings ended up receiving were so miniscule that the above suggestions would not have had an impact on anything. We save money on fees and wages. At worse they don't perform well and we are in no worse a situation. At best they show their full potential adapt perfectly and become World Class. Middle ground we sell on for likely for even larger fees than we paid for the signings. All of that could go to investing money in top class players instead of us constantly saying we can't compete with other clubs. Heck all Poch would have to do is even have carried out one of those scenarios and I'd start to maybe understand the people that praise him, more.

The other option as mentioned, is rewarding our players dominating u21 football with games over serverely underperforming first teamers.

Onomah could have been given a couple of EL games in CM in EL over Paulinho. Capoue, Stambouli in 14/15 or over Sissoko last season.
KWP could have featured in some games or Cups over Davies or Trippier who were being torn into last season.

I don't think any of the above is outrageous. I've listed 5 imo quality players, 4 of who at 18/19/20 are as good or better than Kane was at that age. I don't expect all of them to reach Kane's level, but I reckon at least one after a season or 2 would be considered one of the best players in our first team in their respective position.

The 2nd point about us being better so it's hard to introduce them. Let's say we ignore Barca and Bayern who have managed it. Even looking at the PL in the team directly above us and directly below us, who are in same situations as us. trying to go for CL

Liverpool have given Alexander-Arnold good PL minutes and given other youngsters chances in cups.
Arsenal have given Iwobi and Maitland-Niles starts not to mention various minutes to other players in cups.

So I'm not really sure I buy that reason. I understand and don't expect us to give loads of random minutes to players in Cups like Redknapp an some clubs, but if the players mentioned above aren't good enough. We might as well pack in the academy. If the cream of our crop aren't considered good enough, surely you (and others) agree that the academy revamp and the money spent on it is a massive waste and a failure? If 'were not producing players 'good enough' it's been a massive disappointment and error from Levy especially as it's used as a reason we have to restrict our spending and was intended to produce players for the first team.

Finally, if we say, we can't give them a chance then we don't know what we're missing out on. Even Soldado and Adebayor were bought as big signings who potentially could have completely halted Kane coming through. Why be satisfied with a decent player if you believe you could have a potential superstar in your ranks surely you give them a go.
 

IGSpur

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Plus what does it say to those international players who are on the bench if they are left sat there and a kid is brought on? It would be completely demoralising. So whilst I want to see Poch play more kids it's not always easy. He has to be faced with aspects of selection like this. People forget that.
What if the academy player is performing better than them in training? or are you suggesting they get chances just because they are internationals regardless of performances?

I think a lot of the issues with managers playing the youth ahead of ‘experienced internationals’ is that once you get a kid starting ahead of said player the high wages are put to waste and the potential fee for selling the player dramatically drops and in this era where the money is ridiculous i suppose the hierarchy is not going to be happy with a massively depreciating asset being paid a huge sum purely to train.

Just my 2 pence.
I 100% agree with this and have said as much in the past. I said transfer fee and wages will affect how much game time a player gets and those we've paid money for will get more rope regardless of performances otherwise it will look like we've wasted money, and Levy might not give Poch that kind of spending power again. So he will try and make it work. I was told however by a few posters that Poch makes objective decisions and that would never come in to play. I've been here before so I'll let you pick up that debate haha
 

SpursD22

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With this result against West Ham I unfortunately think the chances of seeing any youth player play has dropped dramatically. Poch will want to “get the momentum back” same against Apoel.
Edit: meant against Wimbledon next game
 
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Blake Griffin

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With this result against West Ham I unfortunately think the chances of seeing any youth player play has dropped dramatically. Poch will want to “get the momentum back” same against Apoel.
kwp will start now i would have thought but only because rose is out. that'll probably be it though.
 

allpaths

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We are all hypocrits to certain extent, the fact Poch persists with Sissoko instead of giving Onomah a chance just proves he's human.

Still think a lot of the man, and I still want him to be supreme manage for life. But to continue insist that he cant be questioned is sickening and how we become slow and complacent. Poch doesnt deserve all the blame for the lack of academy integration, but he must accept his share and do better.

Anyways COYS lets do the job against Wimbledon!
 

SpursD22

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We are all hypocrits to certain extent, the fact Poch persists with Sissoko instead of giving Onomah a chance just proves he's human.

Still think a lot of the man, and I still want him to be supreme manage for life. But to continue insist that he cant be questioned is sickening and how we become slow and complacent. Poch doesnt deserve all the blame for the lack of academy integration, but he must accept his share and do better.

Anyways COYS lets do the job against Wimbledon!
Do you think any academy player will get the chance against Wimbledon? After this game I only think KWP will play. I hope I’m wrong. I want to see Edwards play, Skipp and Tanganga be on the bench
 

allpaths

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Do you think any academy player will get the chance against Wimbledon? After this game I only think KWP will play. I hope I’m wrong. I want to see Edwards play, Skipp and Tanganga be on the bench
I'd be shocked if it wasnt just KWP and Foyth in the starting eleven. Love to see any of the whole wack of promising youngsters get an opportunity in any capacity, but I know it wouldnt make a big difference either way long term as far as Poch is concerned.
 

coys200

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Edwards may not be the most consistent he may not track back and work as hard as he should. He may play his music too loud. But one thing is for sure things happen when he’s around the penalty area. We do not have one player in the 1st squad who is as good a dribbler as him. In a game like today I’d bring him in at half time and just say be brave and run at them. I don’t care if they stop you 9 times out of 10. One time will be that magic moment or a pen. Just put him in the bench for games like this.
 
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