The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

bat-chain

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This Ipswich loan really seems to be working for CCV, he seems to play all the time and get good reviews.

I hope Pochettino still has plans for him, seems to be one of those players who has their mentality spot on. Saw a post on one of their forums saying they had only conceeded 5 goals in the 8 games since he came in.

He's playing for his national team and showing well in the Championship at 3 months past his 20th Birthday, surely this is a Premiership player in the making, he shouldn't peak for another 6 years or so.
 
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Trix

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That's fine, we all understand that. But not every player Spurs sign become elite players either, so all we would like is occasionally for the most talented and highest potential academy players to be given a fairer, and logical shot at succeeding or failing than some of those.

If we were buying DeBruyne's, Mbappe's and Neymar's it would be completely different, your argument would be water tight, but we are buying Njie's, Nkoudou's, Sissoko's, Aurier's and Foyth's who are equally as problematic (in varying ways and reasons) as giving minutes to a very promising kid who we've spent 10 years teaching to play the way we want them to play, who aren't going to need to learn a language or settle into a new culture and environment etc.

And for the record, I only love players who come through the academy that are good. I don't love the ones that aren't. I wish everyone would stop caveating every post about this topic with this silly line.
You keep saying they need to be given a fairer chance, but the fact is they are. They are promoted to the senior squad, and then assessed against the players they will be looking to play with and play instead of on the the pitch. I have said it before but watching them up against Premier league quality players in training, is a far better benchmark for if they are ready, than watching them at youth level. Winks has done it KWP is close so it's not impossible, but when you are a top club the gap from youth to Senior team is far greater than for say a mid table side.
 

LeParisien

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Everyone knows this. Either way, when English players aren't getting comparable chances to their foreign counterpart so you have no idea how well they would be doing were. We would most likely have similar depth in England to the other European nations

I don't know what you consider elite, but it always seems when people make this comment a player needs to end up being World Class to show they deserved to be given a chance here. It's not like we're signing WC players, it's such a hard standard to reach for even the players we spend north of 25m on so I don't get the argument. Any player that eventually finds their way to top league football despite facing the the knock back of having to resettle at another club, surely should have been given a 'chance' in a cup game here or there. That would essentially make them at the level to have contributed to the squad, while simultaneously saving/making us money, to reinvest elsewhere.
The difference is foreign counterparts play in weaker leagues with less money. For Bordeaux to take a punt on 6/7 U23s is not such a big punt because they have limited options and have either far stronger opposition (what can they do against PSG?) or similarly weak opposition. In short, players are ready for first team action sooner.

The money in the EPL has distorted that and is to the detriment of English talent. The upside is that many of the best players come to play in a pretty open league - no one knows who will be in the top 4 or bottom 3 any given season (look at bbc predictions!!). The flip side is that teams cannot take risks with younger players because there is too much money at stake and because every game can be won or lost.

As regards your counter argument that I expect players who have been released to be world class - that is a strawman. I expect players to be spurs class and none of our released players have been.

You seem to want us to play substandard players so that we don’t waste huge transfer fees on underwhelming players.

A club in our position has to take risks because we cannot compete with the top spenders. I’ll use Sissoko as an example as he is most often cited. He had just come off the back of a European Championship where he played very well for the best team in the tournament. He also brought attributes we were lacking. It was therefore judged that he had a far higher ceiling than any similar spurs player. That has absolutely been vindicated for the moment.

I’m not saying that Sissoko has turned out to be a fantastic signing - I am saying that given the inherent risk in player recruitment and our weakness vis a vis our rivals, that it was a deal that was worth a punt.

I’m still very unclear who people think should have had more games. Mason, Townsend and Bentaleb did. Edwards and Onomah can’t get into championship teams. CCV is behind the best centre backs in the league and had several seasons playing understudy (the Foyth role) and not hugely impressing in his cup outings.

Of course your vision is more attractive but it has to be balanced with the cold hard realities on the ground. Because of the leagues competitiveness, the money and the relative strength of our rivals - it isn’t.
 
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bceej

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This Ipswich loan really seems to be working for CCV, he seems to play all the time and get good reviews.

I hope Pochettino still has plans for him, seems to be one of those players who has their mentality spot on. Saw a post on one of their forums saying they had only conceeded 5 goals in the 8 games since he came in.

He's playing for his national team and showing well in the Championship at 3 months past his 20th Birthday, surely this is a Premiership player in the making, he shouldn't peak for another 6 years or so.
I know we are in for Jonathan Tah, reportedly, but Carter-Vickers seem to show a number of similar characteristics, albeit at a lower level. Obviously Alli is a phenomenon but it does show that a young player with the right motivation can step up - see Marco Asensio to Real Madrid, Davinson Sanchez’s move to Ajax, Mahrez to Leicester. Hopefully he proves his worth.
 

Blake Griffin

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You keep saying they need to be given a fairer chance, but the fact is they are. They are promoted to the senior squad, and then assessed against the players they will be looking to play with and play instead of on the the pitch. I have said it before but watching them up against Premier league quality players in training, is a far better benchmark for if they are ready, than watching them at youth level. Winks has done it KWP is close so it's not impossible, but when you are a top club the gap from youth to Senior team is far greater than for say a mid table side.
still think this misses the point somewhat.

take a 20yr old aurier and strip him of any prior first team experience, now put him up against present day aurier and trippier, is he going to outperform them in training? i don't know what poch and the rest of the staff think of kwp but if they think that he can become as good, if not better, than either of those two without taking too much of a short-term hit then surely you have to create some kind of pathway for him and at the same time the money from selling either of the other two can be used to strengthen elsewhere in the squad. the fact is that the decks are stacked massively against these players trying to come through, they might be getting a "fair" chance relative to the rest of the sides in this league who do an equally poor job of bringing players through but they're hardly afforded the same chances that most of the players we end up signing from elsewhere have been.

i've seen people say how sessegnon for example shouldn't go to clubs x, y and z because not playing will harm his development but then they don't apply that same logic to our own youth players for some reason. kwp's development has effectively been put on hold with the signing of aurier, we can play the training card and say but he's getting all the experience he needs playing with great players every day but even poch has said recently(in reference to alderweireld) that you can't compare training and playing in actual games. i'm also not at all convinced that if a youth player does outperform a first teamer in training hat he's suddenly going to get given the nod in games, we've invested a lot of money into aurier so we will give him every chance possible to repay that fee ... meanwhile kwp is expected to sit and wait for a chance that may never arise.
 
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still think this misses the point somewhat.

take a 20yr old aurier and strip him of any prior first team experience, now put him up against present day aurier and trippier, is he going to outperform them in training? i don't know what poch and the rest of the staff think of kwp but if they think that he can become as good, if not better, than either of those two without taking too much of a short-term hit then surely you have to create some kind of pathway for him and at the same time the money from selling either of the other two can be used to strengthen elsewhere in the squad. the fact is that the decks are stacked massively against these players trying to come through, they might be getting a "fair" chance relative to the rest of the sides in this league who do an equally poor job of bringing players through but they're hardly afforded the same chances that most of the players we end up signing from elsewhere have been.

i've seen people say how sessegnon for example shouldn't go to clubs x, y and z because not playing will harm his development but then they don't apply that same logic to our own youth players for some reason. kwp's development has effectively been put on hold with the signing of aurier, we can play the training card and say but he's getting all the experience he needs playing with great players every day but even poch has said recently(in reference to alderweireld) that you can't compare training and playing in actual games. i'm also not at all convinced that if a youth player does outperform a first teamer in training hat he's suddenly going to get given the nod in games, we've invested a lot of money into aurier so we will give him every chance possible to repay that fee ... meanwhile kwp is expected to sit and wait for a chance that may never arise.
I still get the feeling KWP will eventually replace one of the two full backs (most likely Trippier as he is older than Aurier) - but you're completely right, with consistent first team minutes he would be at a higher level then what he is currently...
 

Bus-Conductor

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The difference is foreign counterparts play in weaker leagues with less money. For Bordeaux to take a punt on 6/7 U23s is not such a big punt because they have limited options and have either far stronger opposition (what can they do against PSG?) or similarly weak opposition. In short, players are ready for first team action sooner.

The money in the EPL has distorted that and is to the detriment of English talent. The upside is that many of the best players come to play in a pretty open league - no one knows who will be in the top 4 or bottom 3 any given season (look at bbc predictions!!). The flip side is that teams cannot take risks with younger players because there is too much money at stake and because every game can be won or lost.
I understand how economics can and do effect youth development and integration, but it is too convenient and over simplistic to blame economics for all that is wrong in England and all that is right about development and integration abroad. Successful youth integration doesn't correlate exactly with the relative affluence of the league, the bundesliga is the second richest league in Europe but boasts 7 of the top 14 youngest teams of the big 5 European leagues. It is more integration friendly than the poorer Italian league for example. Real Madrid, Barca, Arsenal, ManU, ManC, PSG, Bayern Munich, Chelsea, have all produced more players than we have have from their academies that are currently playing top 5 European league football. The economic influence is a viable issue, that does impact integration, but it doesn't explain everything away.

As regards your counter argument that I expect players who have been released to be world class - that is a strawman. I expect players to be spurs class and none of our released players have been.
How an earth is Pritchard not of the same standard as Sissoko, (or Njie or Nkoudou)? They are all different, but Pritchard would have been more useful than any of those as an attacking option. And Mason and Bentaleb were/are a shitload better than Sissoko as a CM.

In August the club had a clear choice. They already had an international RB. They also had one of the most promising RB's of his age group at the club who had already been thrown into a tough premier league baptism and equipped himself well. A player whose character they knew to be impeccable, whose technical ability is exceedingly high, who's senior experience is small and will inevitably take some time to learn and develop, but who has enormous potential to be an international quality RB. They also have the possibility to buy another international RB, who - if anyone has done their homework properly - they know is also far from perfect, he is known to be rash and make defensive errors, he is known to be very unreliable in forward areas, he is known to have character issues. Both are quick. Neither are tall.

The committee that decide these things - to buy or not - Levy, Poch, McDermott, Head Scout - now have to weigh up all things - qualities, potential, value - and figure out what is best for the club, not just for the next 6 months, but next 12, 24, 36. Commit to spend 25m (+20m ? wages) on a player with existing issues that they know will need to be worked on and improved or spend nothing and about 250-500k a year wages on working and improving KWP.

I know this isn't black and white, and there mitigating factors, but surely if everyone is thinking rationally, they realise that there will rarely be a better opportunity of when the academy kid made more logical, footballing and economic sense. I'm pretty sure McDermott would have backed KWP and I'm pretty sure Levy would back the idea as long as Poch was on board (one of the reasons Poch was hired was because he bought into the youth integration ethos - Levy said so) what it needed was for Pochettino to be brave enough enough to say "lets go forwards with Trippier and KWP", instead of reaching for the perceived safety blanket of purchasing a player who everyone knew (or should have if they'd done their jobs properly) would also require development but whose potential wasn't necessarily as high as KWP's.




A club in our position has to take risks because we cannot compete with the top spenders. I’ll use Sissoko as an example as he is most often cited. He had just come off the back of a European Championship where he played very well for the best team in the tournament. He also brought attributes we were lacking. It was therefore judged that he had a far higher ceiling than any similar spurs player. That has absolutely been vindicated for the moment.

I’m not saying that Sissoko has turned out to be a fantastic signing - I am saying that given the inherent risk in player recruitment and our weakness vis a vis our rivals, that it was a deal that was worth a punt.
I completely disagree with just about all of this. A club in our position can't afford to take expensive risks like Sissoko. But they can afford to take cheap risks like Alli, Dier and even cheaper risks like their own very best academy products.

Sissoko did not play well in the Euro's, he went on a couple of runs that led to nothing in tight games where very little else happened, and those runs got an ooh from the pundits. And France definitely weren't great in the tournament, they were uninspired in early phase, outplayed by Germany and beaten by a pretty shit Portugal, largely because of Deschamp's idiotic decisions (like dropping Kante, playing Matoudi and Pogba as a CM2 and picking Sissoko when he had much better options). no scout worth a wank would ignore the 2/3 years of viewable PL work for a shit team that got relegated, where he'd spent almost the entire time as an wide right attacker in a 433 system, and recommend a player based on 2/3 minutes of non produced charging at an international tournament. Anyone who'd properly scouted Sissoko should have known he doesn't have the technique, intelligence or basic skill set to play at our level in our system. I can't help but wonder if this was initiated by Pochettino remembering that Newcastle last game debacle in one of those stupid manager fancies player that played well against them things.

It was a catastrophic piece of recruitment and whoever initiated it wants a cricket bat stuck up their arse sideways. And as much as I love much of what Pochettino does, giving someone as woefully inept as Sissoko any game time, especially as a CM, is fucking piss poor, and he's definitely not (this current) "Spurs standard"

So we have to ask ourselves, if Pochettino can make such a drastically bad judgement call on Sissoko, either in wanting him, playing him or both, why do we trust every call he makes with regard to the chances he gives to some of the youth players.
 
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mpickard2087

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I'd much rather 'taking a risk' meant throwing in even more resources, ambition, and improvement in the academy set up and to strive even more to develop our own players. Especially if the alternative risk is a Sissoko.....

But that's too much hard work I guess when you can get the cheque book out.
 

DCSPUR

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Sissoko, we can agree, was a big mistake.
But I think that the story has to be a little more complex. For eg, what did his national team captain, who is the bridge between the team and squad say about the recruitment. Did Poch just feel that the team was too thin after missing out on targets and just wanted someone....maybe a slight panic at the end of a dry summer? Did Levy feel like he had to back Poch because the summer had been slighly stuffed due to stadium finance pressure? Probably a bit of everything.

Also, do believe that if Trippier had crushed pre-season, KWP would have been in with a better shout of that number 2 slot....but Trippier arsing about had a negative knock on effect.

I know @IGSpur thinks that is an example of coming up with an excuse for every one of these players but i think there is some truth in it to be honest.

Small margins and luck matter on and off the pitch in my humble opinion.
 

Univarn

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Also no Edwards again for Norwich. Not even in the squad. What are the benefits of this loan?
I mean their manager literally said this week that he was just returning from injury and probably not match ready until after the international break. If he doesn't feature then we can question if it was beneficial but a loan can be successful for many different reasons. Playing every match isn't always one of them.
 

raymundo-iow

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I mean their manager literally said this week that he was just returning from injury and probably not match ready until after the international break. If he doesn't feature then we can question if it was beneficial but a loan can be successful for many different reasons. Playing every match isn't always one of them.
I appreciate not playing every week but he hasn't made the squad once since being there.
 
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