The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

Spurzinho

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Shame about Bennetts.

Wonder if was a case if we didn’t think good enough (hence lack of chances) or he just fancied Germany more.

Only 19 so a bit young to be pushing for first team, although with Rose unavailable for large parts of last season I think we were a bit remiss not to at least include him in some squads.

Unless he isn’t as good as he feels he is?

I’d heard good things about him in here though and always sad to see someone like this leave.

Was he the one from bristol?
Bristol? Bennetts is from Borehamwood isn't he?

You might be thinking of Tsaroulla who was born in Gloucestershire.
 

Hercules

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19 year old for any academy prospect, who is on the tail end of his first pro contract. It is here tgst botg club and player have to make difficult decisions. I can’t blame KB for moving on, for the sake of his career. Still sad though.
 

Spurzinho

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I think its legitimate to be irked by our apparent reluctance to bring youth through. I've had my disagreements with @IGSpur over which particular lads stand a chance but as fans and, dare I say it, aficionados of youth football we're entitled to be disappointed when the route from youth football to first team breaks down. There's no question that we are producing some of the finest young talent in Europe. We have one of the absolute best training and academy facilities in world football. So, its not a question about whether we should be producing young talent for the first team but rather why we're not and how we can fix that. If the road block is a head coach that is reluctant or unwilling to bring in youth players then that is an issue for the executives because clearly, having spent a significant sum on youth development we are not getting the rewards for our investment or following the established business plan. If the problem is the quality of players coming through then a thorough assessment of our academy coaching staff and methods will be necessary.

Normally I'd think the legislative route was the way to go but clubs are so used to gaming the system that I think that that is largely pointless, unless you make the rules crystal clear and the punishments for failing to fulfil them severe. Ultimately you need the executives of Premiership clubs to understand the economic non-viability of over-paying for mediocre foreign talent that is no more guaranteed to improve your side as it is to generate profit on resale. If the executives bought in then they could exert downward pressure on their coaches who would then have obligation to blood youth as well as the defence when it comes to inconsistency that they're obeying orders from above, which would, for me, make all the difference in the world to coaches because at the moment they rightly fear that any inconsistency could lead to them losing their job before they've even had a chance.

Really this issue can only be truly understood by drilling right down to the basic drivers at the heart of the business of football. Its no different from any other booming industry. Share and Asset value is king. A senior player signed for X amount will represent a certain amount of asset value, a kid brought through from the youth team will represent a significantly smaller asset value. This affects the valuation of a club. A club's primary goal is to maximise its share value. Clubs in smaller countries don't have the share value and so have little to lose from developing their own young players in the hope of creating liquidity through player sales. Top clubs in England do have share value (simply from playing in one of, if not THE, richest league in the world). There's simply no incentive not to invest that in asset inflating foreign players. The downward pressure is not there.

Rough and ready economic analysis that I hope illuminated more than it confused. Basically, blame Capitalism.
 

KenTHFC

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With all these talented players looking abroad, I'm shocked no Chelsea youth lads have left. Am I just missing something, they've got the least chance of all the top 6 youth sides to come through tbh. Are they just on fat contracts from a young age?
 

Blake Griffin

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With all these talented players looking abroad, I'm shocked no Chelsea youth lads have left. Am I just missing something, they've got the least chance of all the top 6 youth sides to come through tbh. Are they just on fat contracts from a young age?
panzo(a starter for the world cup winning u17s) is a few weeks away from being out of contract so it looks like he'll probably be on his way, i think once one goes it sets a precedent for others to follow. as you mention though, it's difficult to turn down big money at that age so a lot of them will stay on. chelsea are also much more active in the loan market than we are so even if they have little chance to come through into their first team, they're still getting the chance to show their ability elsewhere.
 

Locotoro

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So is KWP showing he's better or potentially better ? You seem to be bending your rules already. That could be because they are nonsensically over simplified and even you can't make them sound logical.

You no more expect an academy kid to be more a more evolved player than what we have in our senior team than you do many of the players we sign.

Did Dortmund wait for Sancho to attain every bar set by Reus, Gotze, Schurle and Pullisic, before giving him minutes ? Or did they see that he might not do many things as well as those seasoned pros, but their experience of developing (those) players tells them that he's showing (the same) potential (they did) and the best way to continue to develop that potential is to give him some chances, some minutes? Not immediately dropping Reus for Sancho, just judiciously testing and hopefully developing that potential, because football is a sport that allows that, if a coach is clever, without always being a compromise, because it's a collective team sport.

There is no simple answer or rule book. There is often no magic moment on a training pitch when a kid will suddenly surpass in every way the senior player in his position. He may be quicker, he may match his technique, but he won't have 5 or 6 years of experience that shapes his decision making process, that will only come with time and real experience.

As long as we are wasting 25m (plus another 3-5m a year) on a player like Aurier, when we clearly had a player who with the same 12 months exposure - by your own admission - looks like he'd be every bit as viable, there will be people, rightly questioning and criticising the process. Questioning this mythical bar's efficacy, because clearly the bar let us down there expensively (both in financial and footballing terms). And the same goes for spending 30m on Sissoko. A player who's remit could be filled by any Cm we have in our academy (or me). Please don't tell me Onomah, Winks, Skipp, TOB or Marsh even couldn't have hit that bar or any of the components that make that bar up, except maybe body mass.
This is a really glib response. It's clear that quality is permanent and form is temporary and when you judge a player you combine the two and and make a decision also bearing in mind the opposition. All things being considered a youth player like KWP would be a better option and yes I would put him in.

Not because of potential but because of his performance in the last match was better and more effective than Trippier or Aurier have shown recently.

The simple threshold is that you tell all players they are being judged to the same standard regardless of age. If I remember rightly it was the same approach Poch took when he first came and ended up selling Kaboul, Adebayor and Capoue etc (an approach he was widely congratulated for).

There's no need to convolute my points. They are simple enough to understand. The players that perform get rewarded
 

IGSpur

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With all these talented players looking abroad, I'm shocked no Chelsea youth lads have left. Am I just missing something, they've got the least chance of all the top 6 youth sides to come through tbh. Are they just on fat contracts from a young age?
Partially that and the development opportunities they can still offer. RLC has made the World Cup squad by getting a PL loan. Abraham and Ake also had PL loans. They have links to Vitesse Mount is proving himself better than Kluivert and Odegaard there. Traore was at Ajax. Christensen had the Monchengladbach loan. If they still don't make it at Chelsea top clubs have still seen enough to sign them cf. Ake and Solanke. Then outside of that they can get get decent Championship loans.

Here under Pics methods our best, tier 1, players aren't getting any relevant game time until they're 21, if they manage to convince Poch to let them go, as they're kept around first team and not even allowed to play u23s, as they will apparently play of they're earn it. It means some of the 2nd tier can't even get out as they need players to fill the u23s. Those who I'd go, because we don't appear to have any links bar with Stevenage. Players are getting really poor loans at clubs like Yeovil and Portsmouth at 20. It's such a terrible system.

Even without the money where would you go. No chance of first team football at host club but loans to a top 5 Euro league or training for 3 years in the hope one day your manager trusts you.

Also with all this talk of you have to be elite. Poch literally called Onomah special at 17. What's the difference between the 2 words? Either Poch isn't as great at judging ability as some believe or even he has doubts in giving special players chances
 

LexingtonSpurs

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Basically, blame Capitalism.
I think it is even more basic than that.

First, the money in the PL is ridiculous. Most of that money comes from broadcast revenue - and those revenues dwarf the other leagues in Europe. So, there is pressure to play "Name" players, so that viewers tune in around the world. The quality of the league is widely considered to be the best top-to-bottom, even if Spain boast 3 of the top teams in the world. But, people tune in to see players they recognize.

Second, with all of the money, each team has an expectation to spend it, and everyone loves a good transfer. We talk about how the league can be bought by Man City (or Chelsea, or Man United...), and that puts pressure on Spurs, Liverpool, and Arsenal to buy players to keep up. Its much easier to explain if you buy the "wrong" players, than it is to say you bought nobody.

Third, the ideal place to develop young players should be the Championship. But, two things stand in the way - the money is so great in the PL, that those clubs are all focused on scratching and clawing their way to the PL, they have no interest in developing young players. Those teams don't care how they get promoted, as long as they do get promoted, and that leads to the second problem, the style of play in the Championship is generally not conducive to developing players for PL.

You can't take money out of the game. But, it will be a real problem if young english players start going overseas - in terms of filling HG quotas down the road (I think it will be good for young English players in general to be exposed to different styles of play). I think the solution is probably a mix - teams like Spurs should start paying their own prospects more money - but then looking for loans in foreign leagues - at least for the elite prospects. Get them senior matches earlier in good league - without compromising the integrity of the senior squad.

One more factor that comes into play, when people talk about giving minutes to youth players. Every appearance for a youth player, means a senior player does not get an appearance. And, given that we know these contracts are laden with bonuses, its likely that everyone has an appearance bonus. Senior players who work hard all week, and maybe fighting for more minutes themselves are not going to appreciate being left on the bench for a prospect. So, its always a balancing act, and we usually don't understand all of the implications that go into those decisions.
 

Blake Griffin

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This is a really glib response. It's clear that quality is permanent and form is temporary and when you judge a player you combine the two and and make a decision also bearing in mind the opposition. All things being considered a youth player like KWP would be a better option and yes I would put him in.

Not because of potential but because of his performance in the last match was better and more effective than Trippier or Aurier have shown recently.

The simple threshold is that you tell all players they are being judged to the same standard regardless of age. If I remember rightly it was the same approach Poch took when he first came and ended up selling Kaboul, Adebayor and Capoue etc (an approach he was widely congratulated for).

There's no need to convolute my points. They are simple enough to understand. The players that perform get rewarded
but kwp only got to put that performance in because of a rare occurrence where both our right backs were out injured, if he'd had a bad game then you'd make him wait around until the next time that unlikely scenario came about? it's ok for aurier to have plenty of bad games because he needs time, he needs to settle, needs a pre-season etc etc, kwp though it's one shot and if you screw it up then who knows where your next game is coming from. i also don't agree with judging them by the same standard regardless of age or experience. if you have a 20 year old who has shown he's almost as good as a 28 year old already then in my mind and i suspect many others' it would make sense to move the older player aside and put the development of the younger player first(regardless of whether they're from the academy or not). if you're just going to carry on with the 28 year old then you're stifling the long-term for marginal short-term gain, not exactly forward planning is it?

i also think it's funny that two games is all it's taken for kwp to become "good enough", as though he's just flicked a switch and become that level now he's stepped out onto the pitch for the first team. the truth is he's been good enough for a while now and i'm amazed he's managed to stick at it for so long. you can say that every player coming through should follow his lead but i don't think fans understand how much of an ask it is for a player to effectively put their career on hold on the off chance that maybe just maybe they might get to a game or two to prove themselves when they're hitting 21-22, a lot of players could have gotten a good two, three, maybe even four years worth of football by then if they're at the right club.
 

LexingtonSpurs

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I think its harsh to judge the KWP situation.

Personally, I think he is ready, and think he could have been an adequate rotation candidate with Trippier from the start of the season. But, I don't watch every day, and I don't have my job on the line when I make that assertion. Poch knew that we needed a strong season, and had to make that call last summer - whether he could meet those goals with Trippier/KWP or if he needed a more experienced partner for Tripper.

I can't say that Poch's judgment was wrong when he decided he needed a more experienced RB. And, while I cringe sometimes when I watch Aurier play now - he has been a RB for a top club in Europe, so this was not simply taking a chance on a random player. Aurier appears to have the pace and strength to play in this league, just not the right mentality yet.

If Poch sells Walker, and does not replace him, and KWP proves to be not ready over the course of the season, Poch gets a lot of stick, and maybe even sacked - if it turns out to be a rally bad call. That has to weigh into his decision process.

As for KWP himself - I am sure it has been a frustrating year - knowing that he was capable, but not getting the minutes. My assumption is that KWP still sees himself as the starting RB for Spurs - a top-4 club, sooner rather than later, and that drives his decision-making in terms of extending his contract despite a tough year. He seems to like it here, but if he really felt he had no future here, he would have been pushing to leave for more opportunities this summer. Sometimes we forget patience is a virtue.
 

LexingtonSpurs

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kwp is in england's squad for toulon, no edwards.
Edwards definitely took a step back in his career this season - whether due to injury or other.

Hopefully he gets healthy, puts his head down, and comes into pre-season (on-time) ready to work and impress. He still has the time and the talent to put this season behind him.
 

raggy

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Every player that has left the club in recent years has proven they are not at the level required to be at a top 4 Premier League side, and the likes of Winks and KWP are still very clearly in the clubs plans. It's completely reasonable for decent level footballers to come from our academy and make great professionals without quite being good enough for Tottenham. As our level improves this will happen more.

The hysteria I've seen recently comes from people overly invested in our academy with unrealistic expectations. That's my conclusion.

I'll be worried if I see Manchester City are chasing Keanan Bennetts in the next few years. Failing that I see nothing to convince me the club is doing anything wrong with it's judgement of youth players.
 
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This is a really glib response. It's clear that quality is permanent and form is temporary and when you judge a player you combine the two and and make a decision also bearing in mind the opposition. All things being considered a youth player like KWP would be a better option and yes I would put him in.

Not because of potential but because of his performance in the last match was better and more effective than Trippier or Aurier have shown recently.

The simple threshold is that you tell all players they are being judged to the same standard regardless of age. If I remember rightly it was the same approach Poch took when he first came and ended up selling Kaboul, Adebayor and Capoue etc (an approach he was widely congratulated for).

There's no need to convolute my points. They are simple enough to understand. The players that perform get rewarded

I don't think I convoluted anything, it's more a case of you over simplifying and confusing a complex issue. People like Adebayor and Capoue weren't jettisoned at the time they were due to them not meeting some kind of ability criteria, but because of perceived attitude issues.

We all accept that a basic minimum in terms of attitude and aptitude is expected, and assume that no player would be allowed near the first team squad unless these criteria are met. But after that it's much more complicated than just judging everyone by the same criteria. Sometimes if you want to end up with a better player you know you will have to educate them with actual game time. Even Pochettino has spoken about indulging players like Alli.

Rarely ever will the academy product have all the required skill set to completely justify usurping an experienced player. But this is often not an issue of skills but of short termism and misplaced risk aversion.

It's rarely a simple matter of technical ability, but having the experience to apply that ability to it's maximum effect a higher percentage of the time, and that will only come with games for the first team, in that environment, because training will never fully replicate that.

And here's the beauty, we don't necessarily have to immediately replace the experienced player with the inexperienced one, football allows us a level of experimentation and integration in a competitive environment. We can try them as subs, in ad hoc starts in various competitions against various opposition, we don't have to make a finite decision immediately and we don't have to wait for the impossible materialisation of a kid magically evolving a skill set that includes the type of skills honed by often, years of experience.
 

Hengy1

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Every player that has left the club in recent years has proven they are not at the level required to be at a top 4 Premier League side, and the likes of Winks and KWP are still very clearly in the clubs plans. It's completely reasonable for decent level footballers to come from our academy and make great professionals without quite being good enough for Tottenham. As our level improves this will happen more.

The hysteria I've seen recently comes from people overly invested in our academy with unrealistic expectations. That's my conclusion.

I'll be worried if I see Manchester City are chasing Keanan Bennetts in the next few years. Failing that I see nothing to convince me the club is doing anything wrong with it's judgement of youth players.
Tbf I think Veljkovic would be in our squad over Sissoko easily.
 

Hengy1

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He didn't want to be in our squad... he wanted first team football and he certainly wasn't and isn't good enough for that.
First team football is part of being in our squad.
I’d go as far as to say at that time he was as good as Dier was.

Like I say he’s definitely one with shouldn’t let go imo
 
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