The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

raggy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2015
Messages
1,176
First team football is part of being in our squad.
I’d go as far as to say at that time he was as good as Dier was.

Like I say he’s definitely one with shouldn’t let go imo
How can you say that with a straight face when he has proven he wasn't and isn't at the level of Dier.

These overblown stupid assessments of youth players is part of the problem. I recall people explaining in great detail on here how amazing Tom Carroll is, how much better than Dier he is. Yet Dier is Pochettino's most trusted player at Tottenham and he's part of a team that has made it into the Champions League for 3 seasons straight. Tom Carroll has been drifting in and out of a Swansea team relegated.

Fans are looking at the clubs youth players through a Tottenham tinted microscope.
 

Cornpattbuck

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2013
Messages
3,488
Tbf I think Veljkovic would be in our squad over Sissoko easily.
No he wouldn't. Sissoko is clearly in the squad as boneheaded muscle with ability to shift the ball forward at pace - not saying that's right, but there's no way Milos would be in that role.

Shame the timing with Toby leaving and Milos coming through wasn't different, as that would have been perfect. What do they say about a bit of talent and a lot of luck...
 
Joined
May 5, 2004
Messages
18,974
No he wouldn't. Sissoko is clearly in the squad as boneheaded muscle with ability to shift the ball forward at pace - not saying that's right, but there's no way Milos would be in that role.

Shame the timing with Toby leaving and Milos coming through wasn't different, as that would have been perfect. What do they say about a bit of talent and a lot of luck...
I still don't think he'd have got the nod. I've seen him play a couple of times in the Bundesliga, and he's a good CB, but I'd say at a below Mawson and Lascelles level.
 

Hengy1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
2,454
How can you say that with a straight face when he has proven he wasn't and isn't at the level of Dier.

These overblown stupid assessments of youth players is part of the problem. I recall people explaining in great detail on here how amazing Tom Carroll is, how much better than Dier he is. Yet Dier is Pochettino's most trusted player at Tottenham and he's part of a team that has made it into the Champions League for 3 seasons straight. Tom Carroll has been drifting in and out of a Swansea team relegated.

Fans are looking at the clubs youth players through a Tottenham tinted microscope.
At the time Veljkovic left Dier hadn’t proved anything though. They were both at the same level just one was in our academy and the other was bought from another so was easier to use him and leave ours alone.

So if we promoted him and showed him the path other players bought in get then he would’ve been a very valuable member of the team and we wouldn’t have wasted any money buying someone in.
 

raggy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2015
Messages
1,176
And neither is Sissoko, the question posed by Hengy1 was would Veljkovic be more use than Sissoko.
The question posed is a stupid one riddled in hindsight. We knew everything about Veljkovic we have the opinions of teams of coaches and senior management. We didn't have the same extent of knowledge about Sissoko. We've seen Poch get levels out of players that they hadn't seen at any point in their careers for whatever reason people at the club saw some potential to get more out of Sissoko.

In addition no I don't think Veljkovic could have been an alternative to Sissoko. It would have been better to get somebody else instead of Sissoko but Veljkovic was for sure not the answer.
 

mpickard2087

Fantastic Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
19,230
Every player that has left the club in recent years has proven they are not at the level required to be at a top 4 Premier League side, and the likes of Winks and KWP are still very clearly in the clubs plans. It's completely reasonable for decent level footballers to come from our academy and make great professionals without quite being good enough for Tottenham. As our level improves this will happen more.

The hysteria I've seen recently comes from people overly invested in our academy with unrealistic expectations. That's my conclusion.

I'll be worried if I see Manchester City are chasing Keanan Bennetts in the next few years. Failing that I see nothing to convince me the club is doing anything wrong with it's judgement of youth players.
That is a silly way of looking at it. I go back to my post earlier, how many of the signings we have made and then promptly sold again made it at 'Top four level'? Comparing signed players vs. academy products it is actually about the same... You have all those dropping a rung or two (or more) down the ladder, you have others at equivalent level, and in the case of Bentaleb/Stambouli in the same team, and then you have the odd one in either camp who went down the ladder and then got a surprise move right to the top (Paulinho/Yuri Berchiche).

The ones we have been talking about, could all have realistically filled a squad place considering who was signed in and then contributed fuck all and so set the bar so low. Again, some of these players might not have ultimately 'made it', they might have only filled a squad berth on the fringes for a year or two before getting moved on, but what is so bad about that? Let's not pretend that plenty of our transfers for the last x amount of years haven't fulfilled exactly the same (non) role...
 

raggy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2015
Messages
1,176
That is a silly way of looking at it. I go back to my post earlier, how many of the signings we have made and then promptly sold again made it at 'Top four level'? Comparing signed players vs. academy products it is actually about the same... You have all those dropping a rung or two (or more) down the ladder, you have others at equivalent level, and in the case of Bentaleb/Stambouli in the same team, and then you have the odd one in either camp who went down the ladder and then got a surprise move right to the top (Paulinho/Yuri Berchiche).

The ones we have been talking about, could all have realistically filled a squad place considering who was signed in and then contributed fuck all and so set the bar so low. Again, some of these players might not have ultimately 'made it', they might have only filled a squad berth on the fringes for a year or two before getting moved on, but what is so bad about that? Let's not pretend that plenty of our transfers for the last x amount of years haven't fulfilled exactly the same (non) role...
Just not true though. Or perhaps you want to pitch to their parents "Yeh we just don't think your son is good enough to make it here, but you could save us a few quid by agreeing to be a squad player for a couple of years". Any youth player that isn't seen as a potential starting player in the near future has to leave to get their careers underway.

It's a completely different situation to signings. The club has extensive knowledge of youth players allowed to leave the club, about their personalities, about what breakfast they eat in the morning, about how often they turn up to training on time, and about their overall ability. The club has nowhere near that level of knowledge on signings and often it's their personalities that has a big impact on their success with us at Tottenham.

There's a large difference in certainty on knowing a youth player at the club since they were 10 years old isn't good enough for us and judging a signing. Signings represent a necessary risk. Some pay off, some don't, but I disagree completely that they are comparable to youth players.
 
Last edited:

mpickard2087

Fantastic Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
19,230
Just not true though. Or perhaps you want to pitch to their parents "Yeh we just don't think your son is good enough to make it here, but you could save us a few quid by agreeing to be a squad player for a couple of years". Any youth player that isn't seen as a potential starting player in the near future has to leave to get their careers underway.

It's a completely different situation to signings. The club has extensive knowledge of youth players allowed to leave the club, about their personalities, about what breakfast they eat in the morning, about how often they turn up to training on time, and about their overall ability. The club has nowhere near that level of knowledge on signings and often it's their personalities that has a big impact on their success with us at Tottenham.

There's a large difference in certainty on knowing a youth player at the club since they were 10 years old isn't good enough for us and judging a signing. Signings represent a necessary risk. Some pay off, some don't, but I disagree completely that they are comparable to youth players.
I don't know what to make about the first paragraph. Of course we are talking about the better prospects, those who we think have shown ability and no every single kid who gets taken into the academy.

How can you ever know if they're going to be a starting player? You might hope they might be, but it's baby steps along the way. At first team level it starts by being on the fringes and initial minutes/appearances and going from there. Ultimately its showing their ability on a consistent basis that will make them into a starting player, and you don't know that until they have actually been given opportunities. If they cant make the steps from fringes to regular, I don't think that's a disaster - Are the likes of Townsend, Mason, Carroll, Caulker (who were carefully nurtured through, in the squad for a few years, ultimately not quite good enough and then sold, and for considerable amounts of money) a pointless waste of time? I'd say no. And that approach then threw up the one player every so often that does surprise everyone, and just kept on going right to the top and is now our superstar player up front......

Also Evaluation based on training and whatnot can only take you so far, eventually they have to be pitched into matches to see how they handle it. And it might not be the most heralded prospects who eventually break through. At a certain point in time there will be different gaps in the squad that open up, and a less heralded player (say a defensive midfielder) might fulfil a remit alongside more talented individuals.

KWP is a good current example. The club could have given him the chance when Walker left, basically every sign was that he was ready, but it didn't happen. Now if Aurier hadn't been signed, the fans would have been furious about us not spending money. We see it every year after all with the "well we've only spent 40m, so and so in midtable have spent 60m, WHERE'S THE AMBITION!!!????" type posts. Almost certainly those running clubs have those type of thoughts as well.

Now it's down to each individual fan how they see things, that's fair enough, and if it's a risk or not, and I still have no idea if KWP will ultimately make it at the club, but from my viewpoint I'd rather see, and think if the club is serious about youth development, the young prospect getting a chance first. if he doesn't convince then you can always sign a player later. But why not see, and trust, what you have at the club first. They talk about being brave, that is what I consider brave...... Knowing they'd get flak for not spending automatically.... Not writing even more, and bigger, cheques.
 

IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2013
Messages
6,826
Thread starter #7,436
I think it is even more basic than that.

First, the money in the PL is ridiculous. Most of that money comes from broadcast revenue - and those revenues dwarf the other leagues in Europe. So, there is pressure to play "Name" players, so that viewers tune in around the world. The quality of the league is widely considered to be the best top-to-bottom, even if Spain boast 3 of the top teams in the world. But, people tune in to see players they recognize.

Second, with all of the money, each team has an expectation to spend it, and everyone loves a good transfer. We talk about how the league can be bought by Man City (or Chelsea, or Man United...), and that puts pressure on Spurs, Liverpool, and Arsenal to buy players to keep up. Its much easier to explain if you buy the "wrong" players, than it is to say you bought nobody.

Third, the ideal place to develop young players should be the Championship. But, two things stand in the way - the money is so great in the PL, that those clubs are all focused on scratching and clawing their way to the PL, they have no interest in developing young players. Those teams don't care how they get promoted, as long as they do get promoted, and that leads to the second problem, the style of play in the Championship is generally not conducive to developing players for PL.

You can't take money out of the game. But, it will be a real problem if young english players start going overseas - in terms of filling HG quotas down the road (I think it will be good for young English players in general to be exposed to different styles of play). I think the solution is probably a mix - teams like Spurs should start paying their own prospects more money - but then looking for loans in foreign leagues - at least for the elite prospects. Get them senior matches earlier in good league - without compromising the integrity of the senior squad.

One more factor that comes into play, when people talk about giving minutes to youth players. Every appearance for a youth player, means a senior player does not get an appearance. And, given that we know these contracts are laden with bonuses, its likely that everyone has an appearance bonus. Senior players who work hard all week, and maybe fighting for more minutes themselves are not going to appreciate being left on the bench for a prospect. So, its always a balancing act, and we usually don't understand all of the implications that go into those decisions.
I agree with this 100% and I think finance is the only reason academy players aren't played for one reason or another. It's what I, and I'm sure others have been saying. If we pay 30m for a player, regardless if a kid is doing better than him in training, we will want a return on that investment, so we give them more opportunites. Levy won't sanction spending 30m on a player, if he gets ousted by an academy player before he's stepped foot on the pitch, so these guys are given plenty of rope. I've said this and people scream it's a meritocracy or Poch (PL maangers) don't care about how much a player is worth he will play you if you're good enough, but surely that is just naive thinking. Academy players and signed players are not on an even playing field when it comes to selection.

As you say if you go into a transfer window with your RB spot weakened an you believe you have ana cademy player ready to step in, and they put in performances like Aurier did, fans adn the like would be asking why you never spent the money, or what a stupid decision it was, and not praise the manager for taking a risk. You spend 25m on a RB and they perform badly, it's we had to buy someone, let's show some patience, at least we tried. Even though the academy RB is probably just as good, and that's why I say Poch (and PL managers) need to show more cajones, and if they actually, think someone is special stop saying it, and show why you believe in them.

It's not a meritocracy when a player comes in for a game due to luck, get's MOTM away from home as we win the game then gets dropped the next game. That clearly isn't a meritocracy, especially when the following game, his replacement comes in and we concede a late equaliser because the guy is caught out of position, but he gets to play the next game.

It's purely financial and managers not having the balls to take risks. Fans and managers can hide behind the 'but we don't see them in training line' but we have one of these rare occasions where the academy player is forced into an actual game in full views of the fans, and we see there is no meritocracy but fans still seem to believe it exists in training. And it's not the first time, as has been said before it is well known Kane is the hardest trainer, and now best player, and yet he didn't get his first start until November, even when our strikers were failing. We had the whole preseason, where Kane, Soldado and Adebayor were training together, surely Kane would have been working harder than them there, and yet didn't get the nod. Why because the other two had more experience and cost more money. We've seen played out in front of us. Sissoko improved a lot more this season, relative to his ability, yet his first season he looked one of the worse players I've seen in a Spurs shirt, and kept getting games, while someone like Onomah needed to work harder in training.

We need to be he club we advertise to be and be patient. As you say all the clubs do it, but spending money doesn't necessarily guarantee you getting good players, it depends on where you are in the pecking order. A few years back there was less money in the game and we were 6th in line for the best players. Now there is so much money and we're still 6th in line, but we just have more money to spend. If we're being smart we go against the grain, and use the money more wisely. Imagine if we save the 50m and wages on Sissoko and Aurier, we would be able to bump our best players and put them on similar contracts to the richest clubs in the world, and not even weaken ourselves.

If there are buy backs which Hercules alludes to, maybe just selling them abroad is our best option, to develop them and could be a way to navigate this tricky area. But ultimately I believe it just comes down to courage, in giving our elite players the environment to blossom, and take the perceived risks associated with it. To dare is to do after all
 

raggy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2015
Messages
1,176
I don't know what to make about the first paragraph. Of course we are talking about the better prospects, those who we think have shown ability and no every single kid who gets taken into the academy.

How can you ever know if they're going to be a starting player? You might hope they might be, but it's baby steps along the way. At first team level it starts by being on the fringes and initial minutes/appearances and going from there. Ultimately its showing their ability on a consistent basis that will make them into a starting player, and you don't know that until they have actually been given opportunities. If they cant make the steps from fringes to regular, I don't think that's a disaster - Are the likes of Townsend, Mason, Carroll, Caulker (who were carefully nurtured through, in the squad for a few years, ultimately not quite good enough and then sold, and for considerable amounts of money) a pointless waste of time? I'd say no. And that approach then threw up the one player every so often that does surprise everyone, and just kept on going right to the top and is now our superstar player up front......

Also Evaluation based on training and whatnot can only take you so far, eventually they have to be pitched into matches to see how they handle it. And it might not be the most heralded prospects who eventually break through. At a certain point in time there will be different gaps in the squad that open up, and a less heralded player (say a defensive midfielder) might fulfil a remit alongside more talented individuals.

KWP is a good current example. The club could have given him the chance when Walker left, basically every sign was that he was ready, but it didn't happen. Now if Aurier hadn't been signed, the fans would have been furious about us not spending money. We see it every year after all with the "well we've only spent 40m, so and so in midtable have spent 60m, WHERE'S THE AMBITION!!!????" type posts. Almost certainly those running clubs have those type of thoughts as well.

Now it's down to each individual fan how they see things, that's fair enough, and if it's a risk or not, and I still have no idea if KWP will ultimately make it at the club, but from my viewpoint I'd rather see, and think if the club is serious about youth development, the young prospect getting a chance first. if he doesn't convince then you can always sign a player later. But why not see, and trust, what you have at the club first. They talk about being brave, that is what I consider brave...... Knowing they'd get flak for not spending automatically.... Not writing even more, and bigger, cheques.

How is KWP a good example? He's very clearly still in the plans of the club, just signed a contract and by all accounts looks as though he's going to get much more of an opportunity next season.

A better example would be a player that the club has let go that's gone on to prove the club wrong? So far as I can see there is no player that's done that. They are all clearly below our level despite some of them being very good players and so not being at Tottenham was the right call.

As I said the only justification for worrying is if Man City or somebody of that level is going in for a youth player the club let go of in the past few years. That's clearly not the case. If they're in for Bennetts next summer some questions need to be asked. I'll wager they won't be though.

If you objectively put together that list of players it's a list of players not good enough to play for Tottenham.

The impression I get is that some people seem to think as if by magic they would be better players and at our level if they stayed here? Sorry but I don't get that logic at all.
 

IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2013
Messages
6,826
Thread starter #7,438
Enoch Asante has signed for next year. Apparently finished the season with 41 goals. If that's all for Spurs, very impressive
 

Spurzinho

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2016
Messages
841
Enoch Asante has signed for next year. Apparently finished the season with 41 goals. If that's all for Spurs, very impressive
That is very impressive, although from what I've seen of him he's extremely raw. He's sort of Shaq Coulthirst but more lightweight and not quite as good technically. Maybe there are depths to his game that I've not seen but he does strike me as a bit limited.

He's also going to face an uphill battle to start because I think Parrott will break through very early.
 
Top