The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

[Luka Van der Bale]

I think it’s fair to say right at this moment in time we don’t have anyone banging down the door screaming play me. The closest to that is Edwards but even he has a been a bit inconsistent this year. I think KWP is quality but more a steady eddy than a no brainier pick. Others mentioned have potential but probably a bit off being ready. I actually think the younger from U19 down are the most exciting Skipp Paris Maghoma Lloyd bennet etc.

I assume you didn’t follow the U18s when CCV, KWP, Onomah etc were playing. They stood out even more than this current crop, with the exception of probably Skipp. Long way to go from being exciting at that level to breaking into the first team.

Not saying the current lot aren’t exciting. Just making the point that the ones in the 19-20 bracket were absolutely outstanding at youth level. That final step into the first team is the difficult part.

 

[Blake Griffin]

Here is something for the u18s watches in the link below is a team sheet from Spurs vs Fulham in 2014.

What I would like to know how many of the Current u18s get into the starting line up or on the bench?

https://www.fulhamfc.com/under-18s/2013_2014/cup/round-4/tottenham-hotspur#lineup

lyons-foster/eyoma over lesniak.

skipp over miller.

richards/patterson/markanday over sonupe - wasn't ever really a fan of sonupe, on his day he could be effective but was 90% athlete 10% footballer. haven't seen lloyd-bennett properly yet but he looks to have a better balance between athleticism and ability.

after that i think you could argue for tob over winks, the latter was still decent as an u18 but really began to push on once he made the step up to the u21s. probably isn't much in griffiths/harrison either.

 

[Blake Griffin]

What about De Bie vs Mcgee, I did like Mcgee but De Bie is a good keeper as well?

I would have Hinds at LB over Ogilvie, I know a lot of people liked Ogilive but for me the injuries have done a lot of Damage to his game.

Bennett would easy get in this team and I agree on Sonupe,Still yet to change my mind on Eyoma yet,Winks over TOB for me as you have brought it up before TOB is a huge talent but needs to get involved a lot more than he does because of the ability he has.

yeah, not much in the keepers either. mcgee's bigger and probably commanded the box better but he was also a bit "wooden" in his movement, de bie's smaller but he's more active in getting off his line. keepers are hard to judge though and really i'd need to see them every game to get a better picture.

i didn't really think of hinds when looking at lb(though he has played there a fair bit now) but i guess you could make a case for him. it's difficult to compare the two though as ogilvie was a quick developer physically whilst hinds still has a way to go, plus they're just very different players. eyoma i think i just need to reassess because he's been playing rb for 18 months and that's never going to be his long-term position, he looked superb as a cb for england u16s a couple of years ago so i'm hoping now he seems to have been moved back to that position that he can pick up from where he left off.

 

[IGSpur]

Was going to write something similar.

Only a year ago this was still a place full of excitement, inspiration and positivity and yet every time I pop in recently it's the same rants - almost daily.

The proof will be in the pudding in a couple of years, but I'm still hopeful we'll have a few more kids in the first team soon.

People are still very positive about our academy. As I've said were producing top quality more than we've ever done. We have a lot to be excited about.

I think people are becoming weary and seeing through this narrative of us(Poch) giving academy players chances. People kept saying be patient 4 years ago and only one has come through since. I guess if we're judging on this particular aspect considering average terms for managers are prob under 5 years when can we start to question it?

The proof is in the pudding, but I guess you're saying we can only really judge after 6 years. While overseeing the best players we've had. Would love nothing more than egg on my fave though

 

[IGSpur]

Can you name a top-team EPL manager/head coach who's given more given starting spots to more "youngesters" than Pochettino? Conte? Pep? Jose? Wenger? Klopp?
On top of my head I can list Rose, Davies, Sanchez, Dier, Winks, Mason, Kane, Dele, Eriksen, Son. I am not saying he developed them but at least he stuck with them and helped them develop and intergrate them into the team. And, apart from Rose (who was 23 when Poch "got" them) all were 22 or younger when the "met" Poch.

You're arguing a point literally no one disagrees with. Everyone in this thread is unanimous in their praise for Poch in this department, so it's not relevant. You also stated that not every academy player will be a success just because another is. Everyone knows this. It's no different to signings, some will be more successful than others and adapt differently, doesn't mean the best can't be tested.

And how long do you wait before it's an acceptable debate?

Interestingly and unsurpsingly youth watchers at other clubs find the same brick wall debating this topic. I remember a poster argued that the reason we were so good pre poch at bringing academy players through was because they were better evidenced by a cup they won. This was in response to people regularly saying our current lot are a lot better. But everyone knows results don't necessarily matter. It's like saying our team in 08 is better than now as they won CC. You judge by watching and cup runs can have some luck in them especially at youth level. Before our u17s Competed in euros I thought it was the best age group I'd seen. They lost in final to Spain doesn't mean I don't think they were better than Kane or Onomahs year. Didn't change based on a cup win, The ended up winning world cup though so now they're vindicated.

I feel even if we swept all cups before us nothing would change and the goalposts would just be moved, anyway.

To make a point about when debating is acceptable look at Chelsea. I saw the chelseayouth account complaining about the lack of youth used, as everyone on this forum agrees with, and someone tweeted him that he doesn't see them in training and Conte does so he can't comment. This is a club that have won the last 5 FAYCs defended the UYL title, a comp some fans wanted our best players to play in over the first team, and gave contributed the most players to the England age groups, and yet some of their fans still feel none of their players were ever good enough. Mount is on fire, any other player everyone would crave him as a signing and there's the very real possibility he will never get a chance and their fans will find some reason. England are in the position they're in because anytime someone questions the managers decisions they're attacked and then the managers are defended, then people wonder why England have no depth. I wonder what scenario it would take for people to feel its acceptable to start asking questions when even Chelsea fans don't.

 

[Cornpattbuck]

People are still very positive about our academy. As I've said were producing top quality more than we've ever done. We have a lot to be excited about.

I think people are becoming weary and seeing through this narrative of us(Poch) giving academy players chances. People kept saying be patient 4 years ago and only one has come through since. I guess if we're judging on this particular aspect considering average terms for managers are prob under 5 years when can we start to question it?

The proof is in the pudding, but I guess you're saying we can only really judge after 6 years. While overseeing the best players we've had. Would love nothing more than egg on my fave though

Yeah, I know, but I think it's all a little disingenuous as in that time we've come as close to winning the league as we ever have in recent years (twice) with a young team and low budget and also started competing in the CL (rather than EL against complete no hopers).

We've also sold Bentaleb, Carroll, Pritchard, Mason and Townsend for significant amounts (I'd be surprised if there aren't sell on fees involved in some of the lower value sales too). You may have preferred these guys to make it at Spurs, but they don't amount to failures.

Anyway, it's a circular argument and just depends on your perspective on things. I'm still positive, others clearly aren't.

Fingers crossed either way. Keep the faith.

 

[IGSpur]

skipp over miller

Don't get me wrong Skipp is better but at u18s Miller was very good, Winks level or better, but very underrated. He then fell off after injuries

after that i think you could argue for tob over winks, the latter was still decent as an u18 but really began to push on once he made the step up to the u21s. probably isn't much in griffiths/harrison either.

TOB is hard to argue as TOB doesn't get to play any youth football. An u16 TOB is easily one of the best prospects I've seen, but not translated it to club football since he became u18. His best game for u1ïs was when he was still an u16 strangely. But his performances for England and his importance to a side who have unfolds amount of talent and have swept everyone shows his ability. Whereas Winks at u18s was not on that level bit regularly but on top performances for the u18s. Hard as no fair playing field to debate.

yeah, not much in the keepers either. mcgee's bigger and probably commanded

I found McGee sooo error prone. But he has shown recentky he's a quality keeper. We ask a lot of difficult things from our keepers which probably makes it hard to accurately judge their keeping ability.

I like Hinds and would fit him into any team I could because not only is he good on the ball but he is a good Defender first

Ogilvie/Hinds is a really great debate. An u18 Ogilvie was quality and Hinds is also quality. I'd prob give it to Ogilvie as it's his strongest side and he could also take freekicks.

I made a similar post considering this here http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/ind...thread-2017-2018.129353/page-161#post-5673632

 

[IGSpur]

Yeah, I know, but I think it's all a little disingenuous as in that time we've come as close to winning the league as we ever have in recent years (twice) with a young team and low budget and also started competing in the CL (rather than EL against complete no hopers).

Ye I know and each time I've been given a reason and been happy to defer judgement to next year as there is always a reason. For managers. Relegation battle, challenging for EL, challenging for CL, challenging for title. What's the reason this year?

We've also sold Bentaleb, Carroll, Pritchard, Mason and Townsend for significant amounts (I'd be surprised if there aren't sell on fees involved in some of the lower value sales too). You may have preferred these guys to make it at Spurs, but they don't amount to failures.

Never have thought they were failures. They're massive successes to meet and are perfect examples of why we should use academy more. Great squad contributions and the ones who weren't quite good enough put money in the coffers so we could invest better. That's how it should work. And if we're lucky one of them fulfils their promise, Rose or like Kane and we have another hero on our hands. I definitely think their are one or two more in there.

Anyway, it's a circular argument and just depends on your perspective on things. I'm still positive, others clearly aren't.

Fingers crossed either way. Keep the faith.

This we clearly agree on. It does go in a circle, some people will see it one way, others will look at it another. Great that your positive, wish I could be too. I know that sadly this is also dependent and luck rather than planning so I'll be keeping my fingers crossed too

 

[Blake Griffin]

Don't get me wrong Skipp is better but at u18s Miller was very good, Winks level or better, but very underrated. He then fell off after injuries

yeah i liked miller too but skipp is different level, probably the most well-rounded player i've seen since i've been following the youth sides. i think he could be playing first team football elsewhere already but obviously that's not going to happen here any time soon, i just wish we'd be more open to loans rather than them all having to go through the pochettino system first.

 

[edson]

yeah i liked miller too but skipp is different level, probably the most well-rounded player i've seen since i've been following the youth sides. i think he could be playing first team football elsewhere already but obviously that's not going to happen here any time soon, i just wish we'd be more open to loans rather than them all having to go through the pochettino system first.

I am looking forward to the day when we have one of our own as Captain and his name is Skipp.

 

[IGSpur]

I am looking forward to the day when we have one of our own as Captain and his name is Skipp.

I believe not 100% sure he captained an England match at u15 level. Thing that is so frustrating about TOB is him, Skipp and Kirby were clear standouts but TOB and Kirby were dominating matches more maybe because Skipp took a more reserved role alongside em, but even when he had more attacking freedom wasn't quite on their level. Now tbf to TOB he hasn't played much for us to make a clear comparison and has played for England, but it is strange how Skipp has looked so much better.

I reckon and hope it is a case that he is looking good in training where he is more regularly showing what he did when he was younger and for England. I reckon since he has become a scholar he's played around 15matches for us. If it wasn't for England matches most fans would never have seen him play. From recollection he featured in 2/3 televised UYL matches and 2 televised semi final matches where he was very poor. He may have played in a televised u23 match but can't remember. Anyway his style lends well to bring slotted into the first team soon still optimistic for him, relatively speaking of course.

 

[edson]

I believe not 100% sure he captained an England match at u15 level. Thing that is so frustrating about TOB is him, Skipp and Kirby were clear standouts but TOB and Kirby were dominating matches more maybe because Skipp took a more reserved role alongside em, but even when he had more attacking freedom wasn't quite on their level. Now tbf to TOB he hasn't played much for us to make a clear comparison and has played for England, but it is strange how Skipp has looked so much better.

I reckon and hope it is a case that he is looking good in training where he is more regularly showing what he did when he was younger and for England. I reckon since he has become a scholar he's played around 15matches for us. If it wasn't for England matches most fans would never have seen him play. From recollection he featured in 2/3 televised UYL matches and 2 televised semi final matches where he was very poor. He may have played in a televised u23 match but can't remember. Anyway his style lends well to bring slotted into the first team soon still optimistic for him, relatively speaking of course.

The u23s match vs Sunderland he was playing a more defensive position because of how they lined up,it was very strange system with two CB playing on their own with both fullbacks playing very high up the pitch with either Skipp or Amos take it in turns to drop just in front of the two CBs (not dropping into the back line to make it a 3 at the back) if we had been playing against anybody good we would have lost.

Skipp plays in a Different way with the u23s than he does with the u18s,with the u18s he is allowed to play as a more box to box player and this has help with his passing and vision,he loves to slide balls down the sides of opponents back line and does it so well.

Bottom line is Skipp playing both positions for both teams is only good news for him and his progression as a player.

For the record I hate watching u23 football, the games are mostly hard work and Dull.

 

[coys200]

Some nice footage on spurs twitter of Kane at U18s. Does look like a man playing with boys it was so obvious

 

[IGSpur]

Skipp plays in a Different way with the u23s than he does with the u18s,with the u18s he is allowed to play as a more box to box player and this has help with his passing and vision,he loves to slide balls down the sides of opponents back line and does it so well.

Agree he has a very underrated attacking side to his game as he is required to be disciplined but he can find a through ball.

For the record I hate watching u23 football, the games are mostly hard work and Dull.

Found this as well ever since the best players no longer play and you're essentially watching the hangers on then it has become more of a struggle to watch. Should be better next season when hopefully the Tanganga lot mainly fill the team. You can't have all of em training with the first team soon a lot if good players will be left for the u23s

 

[IGSpur]

Merry Christmas guys

 

[Streetspur77]

Just got Brave New World for Christmas and am tearing through it as I've got bored of talking to family already but what really strikes me is the emphasis on youth.

With the debate in his thread recently I've started to doubt poch in this area, as youth watchers have made some very good points about the seeming stagnation of the academy. However reading the book I think it's hardened my view that poch doesn't just randomly have a reputation for being good with youth, he truly does care about it and believes it's key. I think it says during his time at espanyol he promoted 20 youth players and also he says explicitly that it provides an affinity between club and fans. I don't know why it's slowed down here but surely there's an explanation as it's unlikely he's just decided to give up on it now.

He also constantly talks about youth players and their progress, so the academy must be on his mind a lot as the book is a kind of diary. He calls Edwards a "rare" player and talks about THAT run from Edwards against gillingham in detail so you'd guess he's just as desperate for him to make an impact in the first team as us.

But then he also says about he doesn't like just throwing players in and that sometimes the bedding in period with the first team can take up to 6 months. That's probably what we're experiencing ATM especially with KWP and TOB, who seem to be in and around first team squad but getting limited first team chances, still frustrating though. I think Edwards and onomah are separate, more complicated cases.

But anyway I know I'm late and it's probably already been discussed when the book was still relevant!

 

[Blake Griffin]

Just got Brave New World for Christmas and am tearing through it as I've got bored of talking to family already but what really strikes me is the emphasis on youth.

With the debate in his thread recently I've started to doubt poch in this area, as youth watchers have made some very good points about the seeming stagnation of the academy. However reading the book I think it's hardened my view that poch doesn't just randomly have a reputation for being good with youth, he truly does care about it and believes it's key. I think it says during his time at espanyol he promoted 20 youth players and also he says explicitly that it provides an affinity between club and fans. I don't know why it's slowed down here but surely there's an explanation as it's unlikely he's just decided to give up on it now.

He also constantly talks about youth players and their progress, so the academy must be on his mind a lot as the book is a kind of diary. He calls Edwards a "rare" player and talks about THAT run from Edwards against gillingham in detail so you'd guess he's just as desperate for him to make an impact in the first team as us.

But then he also says about he doesn't like just throwing players in and that sometimes the bedding in period with the first team can take up to 6 months. That's probably what we're experiencing ATM especially with KWP and TOB, who seem to be in and around first team squad but getting limited first team chances, still frustrating though. I think Edwards and onomah are separate, more complicated cases.

But anyway I know I'm late and it's probably already been discussed when the book was still relevant!

the expectations and the money available to him here can't be compared to what he had at espanyol though. most clubs around europe rely on developing their own players, over here if you need a player you just go out and buy one(usually from the aforementioned clubs). it's nice to hear that he spoke positively about edwards and his run out against gillingham(that specific bit hadn't been posted in here, so thanks) but poch says a lot of good things, it's actually following through with them that's the impressive part.

 

[Streetspur77]

the expectations and the money available to him here can't be compared to what he had at espanyol though. most clubs around europe rely on developing their own players, over here if you need a player you just go out and buy one(usually from the aforementioned clubs). it's nice to hear that he spoke positively about edwards and his run out against gillingham(that specific bit hadn't been posted in here, so thanks) but poch says a lot of good things, it's actually following through with them that's the impressive part.

Yeah there could be a range of factors but whatever they are I'm sure he still has the same feelings about youth and it's importance

Another bit on Edwards " A photo was taken of us during his debut against gillingham in which I'm grabbing him around the neck and hugging him. It reminds me of one I have with maradona which I'm also grabbing him round the neck. I'm going to show it to Marcus"

Read into it what you will but it does make the current situation seem odd, as poch really seemed to think of him highly a year ago as a player and a person

 

[Westmorland]

Josh Onomah back in contention to play for Villa tonight after foot injury. Live on sky

 

[Blake Griffin]

Josh Onomah back in contention to play for Villa tonight after foot injury. Live on sky

was funny reading villatalk and seeing their fans lay into the rest of their team after their last game since they couldn't pin it all on the spurs kid. just hope bruce grows some nads tonight and plays him cm, whelan's little more than a clogger and hourihane's nothing special so there's no excuse not to. it's not like they've even been picking up results lately either.