What's new

The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

muppetman

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2011
8,901
24,817
When the only youth news availabel is our players leaving what else are we meant to discuss?

I've posted players that have signed for next year, but academy players realising it's not worth their time staying here and believing they won't get a chance is quite big news no? I actually stopped posting anything about this and tried to just inform on results, to avoid constantly going on about it, as the same boring arguments come up. But when this is the youth news it's worth a discussion.

Also it's not completely negative a lot of people have been praising their determination and bravery for leaving, rather than moaning at them.
I don't think players leaving IS the only news, but I also think it's a sign of our success that we are now producing lots of good players who are good enough to make it in football - even if not at Spurs. I actually think them going abroad to Holland or Germany is a good step and a more likely route to a long and successful playing career.

As I'm not a close personal friend of Levy I don't know this for a fact but I suspect the aim of the Academy is to make enough money to pay for itself (and preferably more than that) and occasionally bring through a player good enough to play for a Top 6 team in one of the toughest leagues in the world - which is what we have seen in Winks and will hopefully now see in KWP.

I also think we fans underestimate how good some of our squad players are - even the dreaded Sissoko and that for a young lad to replace them is a really tough ask - hence why so few of them go on to make it at the very highest level - the level we now play at.


Lilywhite Rose
@lilywhite_rose


Understand the fee agreed for the permanent transfer of Keanan Bennetts is £2million.

Not 100% sure the guy is legit but he/she doesn't seem to be a WUM - either way this is surely a sign of success for our Academy, even if he doesn't become a Spurs player?

I admire the passion of posters like yourself and if it wasn't for you and some of the other youth watchers then I don't think this thread would be half as enjoyable as it is, so I hope you don't take my comments as a personal attack - they aren't meant that way at all. I just feel that the constant negativity that has taken over the thread is somewhat overdone.
 

WindyCOYS

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2016
479
1,588
I don't think players leaving IS the only news, but I also think it's a sign of our success that we are now producing lots of good players who are good enough to make it in football - even if not at Spurs. I actually think them going abroad to Holland or Germany is a good step and a more likely route to a long and successful playing career.

As I'm not a close personal friend of Levy I don't know this for a fact but I suspect the aim of the Academy is to make enough money to pay for itself (and preferably more than that) and occasionally bring through a player good enough to play for a Top 6 team in one of the toughest leagues in the world - which is what we have seen in Winks and will hopefully now see in KWP.

I also think we fans underestimate how good some of our squad players are - even the dreaded Sissoko and that for a young lad to replace them is a really tough ask - hence why so few of them go on to make it at the very highest level - the level we now play at.


Lilywhite Rose
@lilywhite_rose


Understand the fee agreed for the permanent transfer of Keanan Bennetts is £2million.

Not 100% sure the guy is legit but he/she doesn't seem to be a WUM - either way this is surely a sign of success for our Academy, even if he doesn't become a Spurs player?

I admire the passion of posters like yourself and if it wasn't for you and some of the other youth watchers then I don't think this thread would be half as enjoyable as it is, so I hope you don't take my comments as a personal attack - they aren't meant that way at all. I just feel that the constant negativity that has taken over the thread is somewhat overdone.

I think you make some good points but £2m for Bennetts is cheap, like £250k for Veljkovic was cheap at the time, £500k was cheap for Azzaoui, etc. I totally agree that selling players on for profit is a large part of the Academy -- and rightly so, we can't just hold on to players indefinitely -- but it does not feel like there's a clear strategy right now. A little exposure for Bennetts would have kept him at the club and a couple of appearances would have seen his value rise significantly IMO.

I am all for selling Walkes to Portsmouth for a decent fee, selling Maghoma to Twente, selling Harrison/Loft/Ogilvie/etc - they're the ones to sell, not players in the top 10% of our prospects. But it's not just that - it's the fact that they're actively looking to leave.

I totally see what you're saying and how some of the views in this thread - my own included - can be perceived as negative, but it's only because, like you, we want what's best for the club, and this seems wasteful.
 

Blake Griffin

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2011
14,133
38,225
I don't think players leaving IS the only news, but I also think it's a sign of our success that we are now producing lots of good players who are good enough to make it in football - even if not at Spurs. I actually think them going abroad to Holland or Germany is a good step and a more likely route to a long and successful playing career.

but is this not exactly what all of the "negative" posters have been criticised for saying?

Not 100% sure the guy is legit but he/she doesn't seem to be a WUM - either way this is surely a sign of success for our Academy, even if he doesn't become a Spurs player?

yes, lilywhite_rose is very reliable, if he says something then you can take it as fact.

bennetts getting a move to a good club is a success for the academy but seeing him go for £2m when he has a very good chance of being worth far more than that in the future is hardly a success for the club is it? it's like selling a house that's only partly built, yes you'll get something for it but it's only a fraction of what it could be worth further down the line if you see it through to completion.
 

WindyCOYS

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2016
479
1,588
Can confirm Lilywhite Rose is very much a legit account which gets decent snippets of info. It's run by two people, one of whom I know and who is a great guy.
 

muppetman

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2011
8,901
24,817
I think you make some good points but £2m for Bennetts is cheap, like £250k for Veljkovic was cheap at the time, £500k was cheap for Azzaoui, etc. I totally agree that selling players on for profit is a large part of the Academy -- and rightly so, we can't just hold on to players indefinitely -- but it does not feel like there's a clear strategy right now. A little exposure for Bennetts would have kept him at the club and a couple of appearances would have seen his value rise significantly IMO.

I am all for selling Walkes to Portsmouth for a decent fee, selling Maghoma to Twente, selling Harrison/Loft/Ogilvie/etc - they're the ones to sell, not players in the top 10% of our prospects. But it's not just that - it's the fact that they're actively looking to leave.

I totally see what you're saying and how some of the views in this thread - my own included - can be perceived as negative, but it's only because, like you, we want what's best for the club, and this seems wasteful.

The highlighted part is a "could" not a "would" in my opinion but could it also not be that the lad is eager and keen to play regular first team football so wasn't willing to settle for a couple of token appearances?

As for the perception of being negative - I totally understand that it comes from passion for the club and wanting to see the best outcomes for the players themselves.
 

muppetman

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2011
8,901
24,817
but is this not exactly what all of the "negative" posters have been criticised for saying?
I don't think saying players going abroad or for that matter leaving to get game time is necessarily a negative - it's more around the frequent doom and gloom comments that go with it "what's the point? Nobody will want to come to our academy as we never give anyone a reason to" type of stuff.

I'm also still waiting for any of the players we've sold - Bentaleb, Veljkovic, Azzaoui to convince me that we made a massive error and that they would have had any more success with us than Tom Caroll (who I liked), although I can see that if we were a bit more cut throat and cynical we might have made more money out of it.

I might be reaching a bit here but perhaps being willing to let players move on when they feel playing time is the most important thing might make us more attractive then someone like Chelsea who pay more but keep a player on their books forever?
 

chinaman

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2003
17,974
12,423
It's the constant narrative that's peddled, like you've done here...that the evil club is holding these world beating youngsters back, when it's much, much more likely that some of these players, who have been overhyped by a lot of posters on here, just aren't good enough.
There's two sides to every coin mate, and I can agree with @muppetman in that the negativity is getting really old.


Perhaps let's have a general vote here: whether Poch should concentrate on getting us the best results or on playing juniors.
 

IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2013
7,939
13,758
It's the constant narrative that's peddled, like you've done here...that the evil club is holding these world beating youngsters back, when it's much, much more likely that some of these players, who have been overhyped by a lot of posters on here, just aren't good enough.
There's two sides to every coin mate, and I can agree with @muppetman in that the negativity is getting really old.

I'm only commenting on what's happening. I'm quite positive about it as it only benefits England and I've been suggesting our players should start going abroad if they're never going to be seen as good enough here.

I don't really know what you expect people to say you have no problem with them leaving other people do.

You think they're overjoyed I think they're underrated it seems you can't see the other side of the coin.

I see positives end negatives of it. I don't really know where you stand except being unhappy at people voicing an opinion. If people think it's a negative thing then the club have brought in on themselves.

If you see the positives for the club I'd be interested to know why
 

IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2013
7,939
13,758
Perhaps let's have a general vote here: whether Poch should concentrate on getting us the best results or on playing juniors.

What if getting the best results involves playing for the juniors. I've mentioned loads of times it was what Fergie done from the start of his reign to the end. With World Class players and average, and found success. Maybe that was a massive contributing factor. No ones suggested why it's something we can't do, despite us not having as much expectation and having a weaker team than them
 

Matecheck

Free pawn
Sep 25, 2016
307
967
And yes actually I do believe that those youth players should be asked to show they are better than other more senior players. KWP is showing potentially that he is better than Trippier and Aurier and I would put him in the first team.


Can you honestly not see how fundamentally contradictory this paragraph is?

KWP is doing this now for one reason only: in his only 2 PL games, both senior right backs were injured. So there is very strong evidence that Poch will only play him of its the only option. In both games he was Motm and showed he is obviously PL-class.

Now, either

1) he has been showing the same ability in training, in which case training performance is clearly NOT enough to get Poch to pick you; or

2) he has not looked good in training, which only allows the conclusion (considering his gameday performances), that how you look in training isn't a good enough indicator of who the better player is.

Ergo: you have to give an unproven but talented player meaningful minutes before you can say he isn't good enough.

I challenge anyone to name the last youth player we put in the first team who was so bad he was obviously going to cost us points. Otoh, we can all probably name a few signings who we would categorise as such a player.
 

coys200

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2017
8,436
17,403
If Bennett’s has made few cup bench appearances we’d probably got £4-5m for him. Bit naive by the club tbh.
 

Gb160

Well done boys. Good process
Jun 20, 2012
23,646
93,315
I see positives end negatives of it. I don't really know where you stand except being unhappy at people voicing an opinion. If people think it's a negative thing then the club have brought in on themselves.

If you see the positives for the club I'd be interested to know why
We're letting players we don't deem good enough leave instead of wasting money and resources on them, I never said it was positive but I don't see how it's a negative, it makes sense and as others have pointed out, how many have we got wrong?
It's not the end of the world.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
I respectfully disagree.

It is setting a high bar but it gaurantees that you are getting the best out if those players that you have. You make it sound like hundreds of players are making their way to Pochs doorstep but that is simply not the case. If we can develop one player a season that would be more than most clubs do and the best way to do it is to say we are putting the best players into the first team regardless of age. The players who show the right mental application and ability.

And yes actually I do believe that those youth players should be asked to show they are better than other more senior players. KWP is showing potentially that he is better than Trippier and Aurier and I would put him in the first team. Winks, when fit, showed he's a better option than carrol and Mason and thats why they were sold and Winks promoted.

I respect your opinion but I'm of the belief that if you tell the youth players "this is the bar" you won't run off crying, every single youth player will try and challenge and that is good for us and good for them.


So is KWP showing he's better or potentially better ? You seem to be bending your rules already. That could be because they are nonsensically over simplified and even you can't make them sound logical.

You no more expect an academy kid to be more a more evolved player than what we have in our senior team than you do many of the players we sign.

Did Dortmund wait for Sancho to attain every bar set by Reus, Gotze, Schurle and Pullisic, before giving him minutes ? Or did they see that he might not do many things as well as those seasoned pros, but their experience of developing (those) players tells them that he's showing (the same) potential (they did) and the best way to continue to develop that potential is to give him some chances, some minutes? Not immediately dropping Reus for Sancho, just judiciously testing and hopefully developing that potential, because football is a sport that allows that, if a coach is clever, without always being a compromise, because it's a collective team sport.

There is no simple answer or rule book. There is often no magic moment on a training pitch when a kid will suddenly surpass in every way the senior player in his position. He may be quicker, he may match his technique, but he won't have 5 or 6 years of experience that shapes his decision making process, that will only come with time and real experience.

As long as we are wasting 25m (plus another 3-5m a year) on a player like Aurier, when we clearly had a player who with the same 12 months exposure - by your own admission - looks like he'd be every bit as viable, there will be people, rightly questioning and criticising the process. Questioning this mythical bar's efficacy, because clearly the bar let us down there expensively (both in financial and footballing terms). And the same goes for spending 30m on Sissoko. A player who's remit could be filled by any Cm we have in our academy (or me). Please don't tell me Onomah, Winks, Skipp, TOB or Marsh even couldn't have hit that bar or any of the components that make that bar up, except maybe body mass.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
Perhaps let's have a general vote here: whether Poch should concentrate on getting us the best results or on playing juniors.

How good would our results have been without academy Kane? KWP has equaled Aurier's season assists in one game, how many more goals might we have if we'd played him as rotation this year ?
 

EQP

EQP
Sep 1, 2013
7,960
29,660
We're letting players we don't deem good enough leave instead of wasting money and resources on them, I never said it was positive but I don't see how it's a negative, it makes sense and as others have pointed out, how many have we got wrong?
It's not the end of the world.

What truly confuses me is if you trust the likes of IGSpur/ BG/ Windy/ Spurzinho etc with updating this thread with information about our current youth players, where they stack up, how they're performing and if they'll have a future with us - Why then would you slate them for being disappointed and voicing their opinions about said youth players leaving or not getting opportunities?
 

Luka Van der Bale

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2011
6,041
13,611
Perhaps let's have a general vote here: whether Poch should concentrate on getting us the best results or on playing juniors.
You seem to misunderstand the opposition point of view. I’m not one of those who criticises the way Pochettino goes about things - in fact I think we’ll see KWP have a Winks 16-17 esque breakthrough next season after training with the team all this year. However you clearly don’t understand the point these people are making. No-one, absolutely no-one, is saying we should choose developing young players over results. People are saying they believe giving these young players a chance is our best route to success.
 

Gb160

Well done boys. Good process
Jun 20, 2012
23,646
93,315
What truly confuses me is if you trust the likes of IGSpur/ BG/ Windy/ Spurzinho etc with updating this thread with information about our current youth players, where they stack up, how they're performing and if they'll have a future with us - Why then would you slate them for being disappointed and voicing their opinions about said youth players leaving or not getting opportunities?
I haven't slated anyone, I'm just not subscribing to the 'lack of opportunities' narrative that seems to be all the rage in here, when it's much more likely that the youngsters who've been allowed to leave are just not good enough...why is that so hard for some people in here to accept.

Just because I don't agree with the conclusions that the posters you mentioned draw, doesn't mean I don't find their general input to the thread valuable and interesting to read.
 

coy-spurs1882

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
3,989
10,442
I generally enjoy this thread - it's one of my favourites on the whole board but the ongoing negativity from some posters around the kids getting chances is starting to get really old. I know you're upset and I know that Poch's reputation is perhaps no longer (if ever) deserved, you've made your point - again and again and again.

I admire your passion and I totally understand that some feel that if certain players were just given opportunities in their proper position then perhaps they could shine and save the club money on unnecessary squad fillers. I agree with you and think that KWP and Onomah in particular should have received more minutes.

However, Poch's primary function is to win football games, not bring through youth players - we are already going up against the oil baron's with our significantly smaller funds so I can understand why he is more risk averse than in previous jobs. Whilst I totally understand why people are frustrated, we keep overachieving with what we have and the need to do all of that AND bring through the youngsters seems a little greedy to me.

I think that other leagues have a greater disparity between the top teams and the bottom and so it is easier to blood some of the younger talent as the mistakes they make aren't so costly, but our recent games against Brighton and WBA (who got relegated) show that it is much more difficult to take chances of any sort here. Also we'd previously have used the FA and League cups but they've hardly been a stress free stroll either of late.

Sorry, not trying to upset anyone but the thread is being overshadowed (for me) by the constant complaining and whilst everyone else is having their vent I thought I'd have a go too! :ROFLMAO:
to me the most annoying thing is that people are raved about us missing on o.dembele, mbappe but refuse to believe that we can probably produce our own od and km
 
Top