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The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,328
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Not a very pertinent point when we're talking about players who aren't being given a chance to perform.
Are you for real?
Do you not know what it means by implication?
The players who perform get rewarded and those that are not performing don't.
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,886
32,513
How is KWP a good example? He's very clearly still in the plans of the club, just signed a contract and by all accounts looks as though he's going to get much more of an opportunity next season.

A better example would be a player that the club has let go that's gone on to prove the club wrong? So far as I can see there is no player that's done that. They are all clearly below our level despite some of them being very good players and so not being at Tottenham was the right call.

As I said the only justification for worrying is if Man City or somebody of that level is going in for a youth player the club let go of in the past few years. That's clearly not the case. If they're in for Bennetts next summer some questions need to be asked. I'll wager they won't be though.

If you objectively put together that list of players it's a list of players not good enough to play for Tottenham.

The impression I get is that some people seem to think as if by magic they would be better players and at our level if they stayed here? Sorry but I don't get that logic at all.

I don't think you're reading the posts. If KWP is in the plans and will be getting opportunities, what was the point of popping 25 million on Aurier? Someone who himself has had teething problems and made plenty of mistakes. It could have been a season seeing if KWP was up to it. Why not look at what you have first at the club before going and buying, and especially such a dubious character who needs plenty of work?

Also it reads from your posts like it's as if they aren't at Kane level or signed by some big club, then it's not worth bothering. My point is that you can have players who just fulfil remits towards the fringes of the squad..... Take the Man U repeat title winning teams for instance. The likes of Lee Sharpe, Phil Neville, Nicky Butt, John O'Shea, Wes Brown, Darren Fletcher, Jonny Evans, Kieran Richardson, and many others (plus a load of non academy players that add to the point - the likes of Quinton Fortune, Park Ji-Sung etc), only went one way in their career post Utd - down, and some of them drastically so. Mostly that's just solid players, some only ever on the fringes, they definitely weren't ever on the level of the star United players, but all were at some point able to contribute even if it was only for a couple of years before getting moved on.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
How is KWP a good example? He's very clearly still in the plans of the club, just signed a contract and by all accounts looks as though he's going to get much more of an opportunity next season.

A better example would be a player that the club has let go that's gone on to prove the club wrong? So far as I can see there is no player that's done that. They are all clearly below our level despite some of them being very good players and so not being at Tottenham was the right call.

As I said the only justification for worrying is if Man City or somebody of that level is going in for a youth player the club let go of in the past few years. That's clearly not the case. If they're in for Bennetts next summer some questions need to be asked. I'll wager they won't be though.

If you objectively put together that list of players it's a list of players not good enough to play for Tottenham.

The impression I get is that some people seem to think as if by magic they would be better players and at our level if they stayed here? Sorry but I don't get that logic at all.


Are you having a laugh? I'd rather have seen any of Bentaleb, Mason or Lesniak play as Cm's and I'd much rather have seen Pritchard as an AM than watch Sissoko play either of those positions.

Why is it so hard to grasp that academy players don't have to be world class to be viable for us, more viable than some purchased players, and even if we think in advance they won't be world class, and they turn out not to be, it's still only going to help their careers to be given game time by a club like us, as well as help us.

And if you accept that Pochettino can improve players we purchase (Walker, Kane, Dier, Alli, Son, Eriksen, Rose eg), why not entertain the idea that he can improve academy players at least as much, if not more because their scope is greater and they aren't having the have bad methods coached out of them, they've already had the head start of being coached by our coaches and Poch.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
Are you for real?
Do you not know what it means by implication?
The players who perform get rewarded and those that are not performing don't.

You mean like KWP getting moved up to the first team squad a year or two ago, winning a World Cup, getting MOTM (generously, but he played really well) on his first senior league start then getting rewarded by being bumped down to third choice as we purchase another (24yo) Rb for 25m.

Do you really think that Sissoko is out performing people like Skipp or TOB in training as CM's ? The bloke can't even control a football. You think if Sterling scores a load more goals in training he's going to get the nod over Kane on Saturday?

It's ridiculous to claim that training performance means much.
 

raggy

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2015
1,178
5,223
You mean like KWP getting moved up to the first team squad a year or two ago, winning a World Cup, getting MOTM (generously, but he played really well) on his first senior league start then getting rewarded by being bumped down to third choice as we purchase another (24yo) Rb for 25m.

Do you really think that Sissoko is out performing people like Skipp or TOB in training as CM's ? The bloke can't even control a football. You think if Sterling scores a load more goals in training he's going to get the nod over Kane on Saturday?

It's ridiculous to claim that training performance means much.

I think that players you've taken a similar tone with in the past have left Tottenham and gone on to not meet the standard you make out it's obvious they can sustain. "Do you really think Carroll/Veljkovic couldn't do what Dier does the guy is just a defensive busy body type blah blah".

But none of these players have left the club and gone on to prove you right. Some have done well, but none of them have cemented themselves into teams of Tottenham's level.

Are you having a laugh? I'd rather have seen any of Bentaleb, Mason or Lesniak play as Cm's and I'd much rather have seen Pritchard as an AM than watch Sissoko play either of those positions.

Why is it so hard to grasp that academy players don't have to be world class to be viable for us, more viable than some purchased players, and even if we think in advance they won't be world class, and they turn out not to be, it's still only going to help their careers to be given game time by a club like us, as well as help us.

And if you accept that Pochettino can improve players we purchase (Walker, Kane, Dier, Alli, Son, Eriksen, Rose eg), why not entertain the idea that he can improve academy players at least as much, if not more because their scope is greater and they aren't having the have bad methods coached out of them, they've already had the head start of being coached by our coaches and Poch.

Why can't you entertain the fact that teams of Tottenham coaches as well as Pochettino and John Mcdermott have obviously discussed all of these options and come to a different conclusion that may be correct?

People rated as some of the best coaches in the world have considered Lesniak and decided no despite what Bus-conductor says he's not good enough for Tottenham.

Why is there some need on here to act as if the performances of these players you are sure should be playing for Tottenham instead of Sissoko haven't been analysed for years by people much more qualified to do that job?
 
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Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
I think that players you've taken a similar tone with in the past have left Tottenham and gone on to not meet the standard you make out it's obvious they can sustain. "Do you really think Carroll/Veljkovic couldn't do what Dier does the guy is just a defensive busy body type blah blah".

But none of these players have left the club and gone on to prove you right. Some have done well, but none of them have cemented themselves into teams of Tottenham's level.

I don't know what you mean. I never claimed Carroll or Velkovic were world class or even outstanding. I had no problem with selling Carroll. And all I have ever said about Veljkovic is he could have been as viable as someone like Chiriches or Stambouli and fulfilled that kind of remit at worst.

You don't seem to be reading or understanding what people are saying to you. Players don't have to world class or top drawer for the club and them to fulfil a mutually beneficial remit for each other.
 

raggy

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2015
1,178
5,223
I don't know what you mean. I never claimed Carroll or Velkovic were world class or even outstanding. I had no problem with selling Carroll. And all I have ever said about Veljkovic is he could have been as viable as someone like Chiriches or Stambouli and fulfilled that kind of remit at worst.

You don't seem to be reading or understanding what people are saying to you. Players don't have to world class or top drawer for the club and them to fulfil a mutually beneficial remit for each other.

No I remember the things you used to say about Dier and how you rated him against academy players nowhere near his level.

We're above players like Chiriches or Stambouli now. We intended for Sissoko to be above them as well and above any potential academy suitor. If he isn't that's entirely down to the natural risk of transfers.

But if we could turn back time it would just mean we should be signing somebody else instead of Sissoko... not giving this spot to Lesniak or another academy player instead.
 
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Anuth

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2008
745
2,346
our U19 will participate in Terborg tournament next weekend 25th -27th May. We are in the same group of Atletico Paranaense, FC Midtjylland and Sc Heerenveen


Screen Shot 2561-05-19 at 14.17.10.png
 

Sevens

Well-Known Member
Apr 23, 2014
4,583
6,947
I don't think you're reading the posts. If KWP is in the plans and will be getting opportunities, what was the point of popping 25 million on Aurier? Someone who himself has had teething problems and made plenty of mistakes. It could have been a season seeing if KWP was up to it. Why not look at what you have first at the club before going and buying, and especially such a dubious character who needs plenty of work?

Also it reads from your posts like it's as if they aren't at Kane level or signed by some big club, then it's not worth bothering. My point is that you can have players who just fulfil remits towards the fringes of the squad..... Take the Man U repeat title winning teams for instance. The likes of Lee Sharpe, Phil Neville, Nicky Butt, John O'Shea, Wes Brown, Darren Fletcher, Jonny Evans, Kieran Richardson, and many others (plus a load of non academy players that add to the point - the likes of Quinton Fortune, Park Ji-Sung etc), only went one way in their career post Utd - down, and some of them drastically so. Mostly that's just solid players, some only ever on the fringes, they definitely weren't ever on the level of the star United players, but all were at some point able to contribute even if it was only for a couple of years before getting moved on.

Two reasons:

1) Transfer window. You only have small finite amount of time to make the right choice and chancing it on a kid is a massive risk because.....

2) Most young players don't make it. And the better your team gets the more unlikely they are to be good enough. In our position giving kids a chance, for the sake of giving kids a chance, could end up being the difference between European qualification or not. No manager is going to risk that. You give kids a chance when you having nothing to lose, when the kid is an obvious candidate for first team football or when the kid gets a chance and takes it.
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,886
32,513
Two reasons:

1) Transfer window. You only have small finite amount of time to make the right choice and chancing it on a kid is a massive risk because.....

2) Most young players don't make it. And the better your team gets the more unlikely they are to be good enough. In our position giving kids a chance, for the sake of giving kids a chance, could end up being the difference between European qualification or not. No manager is going to risk that. You give kids a chance when you having nothing to lose, when the kid is an obvious candidate for first team football or when the kid gets a chance and takes it.

But you back the ability of the organisation - that the academy is developing prospects (and we're talking about the most promising ones, not just throwing in any old kid for the sake of it) with quality, that they have a skillset that will see them able to slot into the first team and how it plays football, that the manager can put the finishing touches on the prospect and successfully integrate them into the first team, and so on. Yes it's a risk, but people like Poch bang on and on about being brave..... Well that's an example of being brave in my opinion, and knowing that transfer junkie fans/media/football world will go apeshit and write you off for not spending money at the first opportunity. I don't think brave is just writing cheques for £60m instead of £40m and paying players 200k a week instead of 100k a week. That's easy.

But in your world, these chances would then never happen to be taken. Or, you're boiling it down to they have to perform if they're lucky enough to get one or two run outs a season in lower league cup ties, if they don't it's the scrapheap. So basically have maybe 90 mins to prove themselves and make a career. Good job we don't apply that logic to signings, or someone like Harry Kane as he would have been sold about 6 years ago.....

And that's the silly bollocks argument that always get trotted out, 'they'll cost us European football'..... well we have plenty of squad players contributing fuck all (Sissoko, Nkoudou, N'Jie, Janssen, Llorente, Wimmer etc) and have many players who make many mistakes over a season - like Aurier has. And yet still the squad absorbs and copes with these mistakes and wastes of money, the better players shine, and we keep on rolling.
 

Sevens

Well-Known Member
Apr 23, 2014
4,583
6,947
But you back the ability of the organisation - that the academy is developing prospects (and we're talking about the most promising ones, not just throwing in any old kid for the sake of it) with quality, that they have a skillset that will see them able to slot into the first team and how it plays football, that the manager can put the finishing touches on the prospect and successfully integrate them into the first team, and so on. Yes it's a risk, but people like Poch bang on and on about being brave..... Well that's an example of being brave in my opinion, and knowing that transfer junkie fans/media/football world will go apeshit and write you off for not spending money at the first opportunity. I don't think brave is just writing cheques for £60m instead of £40m and paying players 200k a week instead of 100k a week. That's easy.

But in your world, these chances would then never happen to be taken. Or, you're boiling it down to they have to perform if they're lucky enough to get one or two run outs a season in lower league cup ties, if they don't it's the scrapheap. So basically have maybe 90 mins to prove themselves and make a career. Good job we don't apply that logic to signings, or someone like Harry Kane as he would have been sold about 6 years ago.....

And that's the silly bollocks argument that always get trotted out, 'they'll cost us European football'..... well we have plenty of squad players contributing fuck all (Sissoko, Nkoudou, N'Jie, Janssen, Llorente, Wimmer etc) and have many players who make many mistakes over a season - like Aurier has. And yet still the squad absorbs and copes with these mistakes and wastes of money, the better players shine, and we keep on rolling.

Yes and no. You still have to be realistic. A successful academy is one that creates professional footballers that can also be sold at a profit. In terms of youngsters breaking into the actual first team there are very few who break into the first team in a Premier League club. Among all teams. And that is because most academy prospects ultimately aren't good enough to play Premier League football. In some cases that is down to poor mentality or lack of football intelligence and in other cases it is simply lack of ability (especially the case with a lot physically strong and athletic players at youth level). The first team is not the place to weed them out. That's what the various stages of youth teams and loans are for.

As for the silly bollocks argument. A lot of fans won't rate certain first team squad players. Let's take Sissoko for example. Sissoko of 17/18 is almost certainly and comfortably a better player than ANY of our midfield youth prospects will EVER be. He may not be good enough for Spurs but he is significantly better than Onomah for example. He is significantly better than Jake Livermore, Nabil Bentaleb, Tom Carroll or Ryan Mason were when they all played for Spurs (and beyond Spurs). Is he better than Winks? Difficult to say. But Winks was around the first team for a while before he got his chance. Because when Poch feels a youngster is potentially good enough he does give them plenty of first team exposure.

To be honest this is an argument I seem to have every generation. I remember arguing relentlessly on the old newsgroups and Glory Glory back in the early 00's against people who were claiming Simon Davies should be in the team instead of Poyet, Etherington should be getting games instead of Ziege and Gardner should be in the team instead of Richards. And then later down the line having similar discussions around Tom Huddlestone, Phil Ifil etc. This is nothing new.
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,328
13,927
But you back the ability of the organisation - that the academy is developing prospects (and we're talking about the most promising ones, not just throwing in any old kid for the sake of it) with quality, that they have a skillset that will see them able to slot into the first team and how it plays football, that the manager can put the finishing touches on the prospect and successfully integrate them into the first team, and so on. Yes it's a risk, but people like Poch bang on and on about being brave..... Well that's an example of being brave in my opinion, and knowing that transfer junkie fans/media/football world will go apeshit and write you off for not spending money at the first opportunity. I don't think brave is just writing cheques for £60m instead of £40m and paying players 200k a week instead of 100k a week. That's easy.

But in your world, these chances would then never happen to be taken. Or, you're boiling it down to they have to perform if they're lucky enough to get one or two run outs a season in lower league cup ties, if they don't it's the scrapheap. So basically have maybe 90 mins to prove themselves and make a career. Good job we don't apply that logic to signings, or someone like Harry Kane as he would have been sold about 6 years ago.....

And that's the silly bollocks argument that always get trotted out, 'they'll cost us European football'..... well we have plenty of squad players contributing fuck all (Sissoko, Nkoudou, N'Jie, Janssen, Llorente, Wimmer etc) and have many players who make many mistakes over a season - like Aurier has. And yet still the squad absorbs and copes with these mistakes and wastes of money, the better players shine, and we keep on rolling.

With respect you seem to be rewriting history here. Given Poch clearly likes playing with a target striker, who in our youth setup could provide a viable back up option to Kane and is a better option Janssen or Llorente when we bought them?

Wimmer had a season where he was the heir apparent to Vertonghen and was thought to be hard done by on his lack of chances thereafter.

N'Jie and N'Koudou I'll concede on.

But Sissoko. Everyone keeps saying how shit he is, "worst footballer in a Spurs shirt". And yes if you're expecting a modric or a dembele then you'll be disappointed. He's not great technically and maybe that's what we need but the guy gives something we didn't have, the combination of power and pace with boundless energy and a never say die attitude. I've never heard a negative word from him despite almost every FAN of the club mocking him, slating him, deriding him. He works hard and does what the manager asks. He's also on the French stand by list for the World Cup so it's not just Pochs.
Whilst he may not be good enough in quality for Spurs i think the way he's been treated by fans is disgusting. And to those saying he's no better than TOB or Skipp are quite literally taking the piss because even if they may be technically better neither of those players are even near his level. Are TOB or Skipp international level?

Yes we should sell him but don't be myopic and unreasonable just to prove a point. It only shows that you can't see the full range of qualities players can bring to a team.
 

WindyCOYS

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2016
479
1,588
Sissoko of 17/18 is almost certainly and comfortably a better player than ANY of our midfield youth prospects will EVER be. He may not be good enough for Spurs but he is significantly better than Onomah for example. He is significantly better than Jake Livermore, Nabil Bentaleb, Tom Carroll or Ryan Mason were when they all played for Spurs (and beyond Spurs).

Somewhere in a dark corner of the coys web is a post from years back saying ‘Rebrov may not be good enough for Spurs but he’s better than any striking prospect we’ll ever being through ourselves’.
 

Univarn

Lost. Probably Not Worth Finding.
Jul 20, 2017
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15,279
This thread goes some places sometimes... Like I am all here for balanced debate on youth integration versus first team but some out here defending Sissoko? o_O
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,328
13,927
This thread goes some places sometimes... Like I am all here for balanced debate on youth integration versus first team but some out here defending Sissoko? o_O
Why shouldn't we defend him?

Do you think he's played 38 times for us this season, played a leading role in getting France to the Euro final and is a back up option to the for the WC squad because he's totally shit?

What has Onomah, TOB or Skipp done to prove they are better options?
 

Univarn

Lost. Probably Not Worth Finding.
Jul 20, 2017
2,864
15,279
Why shouldn't we defend him?

Do you think he's played 38 times for us this season, played a leading role in getting France to the Euro final and is a back up option to the for the WC squad because he's totally shit?
I think he's played 38 games for us because we had a series of injuries that went beyond our expectation and he's happy to do that bit. I think he plays for France because he is one of the few physical enforcement presences they had. I also think his "domination" of the Euros, while good for banter, is quite overstated. Totally shit? No. Has a large series of fundamental flaws which are easily exposable at the level we are playing at and no more than any youth player would have given a chance? 2000% Yes.
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,328
13,927
I think he's played 38 games for us because we had a series of injuries that went beyond our expectation and he's happy to do that bit. I think he plays for France because he is one of the few physical enforcement presences they had. I also think his "domination" of the Euros, while good for banter, is quite overstated. Totally shit? No. Has a large series of fundamental flaws which are easily exposable at the level we are playing at and no more than any youth player would have given a chance? 2000% Yes.

So at least we're agreed that he's not shit.

Yes he has flaws. He's a footballer, like many, who is very good in one area and not good in other areas. Yes, we need a better option from a quality perspective but those youth players do not provide what he does.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
Yes and no.

But predominantly yes.


Yes and no. You still have to be realistic. A successful academy is one that creates professional footballers that can also be sold at a profit. In terms of youngsters breaking into the actual first team there are very few who break into the first team in a Premier League club. Among all teams. And that is because most academy prospects ultimately aren't good enough to play Premier League football. In some cases that is down to poor mentality or lack of football intelligence and in other cases it is simply lack of ability (especially the case with a lot physically strong and athletic players at youth level). The first team is not the place to weed them out. That's what the various stages of youth teams and loans are for.

As for the silly bollocks argument. A lot of fans won't rate certain first team squad players. Let's take Sissoko for example. Sissoko of 17/18 is almost certainly and comfortably a better player than ANY of our midfield youth prospects will EVER be. He may not be good enough for Spurs but he is significantly better than Onomah for example. He is significantly better than Jake Livermore, Nabil Bentaleb, Tom Carroll or Ryan Mason were when they all played for Spurs (and beyond Spurs). Is he better than Winks? Difficult to say. But Winks was around the first team for a while before he got his chance. Because when Poch feels a youngster is potentially good enough he does give them plenty of first team exposure.

To be honest this is an argument I seem to have every generation. I remember arguing relentlessly on the old newsgroups and Glory Glory back in the early 00's against people who were claiming Simon Davies should be in the team instead of Poyet, Etherington should be getting games instead of Ziege and Gardner should be in the team instead of Richards. And then later down the line having similar discussions around Tom Huddlestone, Phil Ifil etc. This is nothing new.

I love that you follow “you still have to be realistic” with about 27 statements of utter fictitious bollocks.
 

ralphs bald spot

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2015
2,777
5,177
Veijkovic was in World Soccer's 10 outside talents to follow at the forthcoming World Cup -

My two penneth about the argument - is that watching youth football it's so difficult to access who is going to break through. I watched the youth team a couple of season's ago almost all the home games and a few away it was one that included Winks(who was consistent but not much more and I always used to mix him up with Miller) KWP and CCV . They were a very good side and I felt a good few had very good chances, the stand out for me was probably Ogilvie who has done ok on loan to Gillingham but no more. Others have moved on some of which disappointed more than others, like Oduwa who had so much natural talent and to me it seemed a waste and indictment of the coaching that he never moved upwards. Though I think what I realised is that it's not just about talent the attitude thing goes such a long way and we don't really see that just in watching games.

I think I generally agree that there has to be opening for kids but I also think you can't manufacture it they have to earn it. How do you do that without playing ? That's the million dollar question. Its so difficult to answer the Sissoko argument in reality he did ok if a boy had come in and shown the same level of performance we may well be on here proclaiming him the next star.

I think the truth in the matter is that its so difficult to tell who will make it and who won't and there are so many variables
 
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