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The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

Matecheck

Free pawn
Sep 25, 2016
307
967
Are you for real?
Do you not know what it means by implication?
The players who perform get rewarded and those that are not performing don't.


And what about those who aren't playing? How are they performing? And don't start talking about training.
 

Sevens

Well-Known Member
Apr 23, 2014
4,583
6,947
Somewhere in a dark corner of the coys web is a post from years back saying ‘Rebrov may not be good enough for Spurs but he’s better than any striking prospect we’ll ever being through ourselves’.

Oops, I meant current youth prospects obviously! But I'd say you're wrong about Rebrov. He was adored by the online Spurs community and most of the posts centred around why Rebrov should be in the team instead of Sheringham!
 

WindyCOYS

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2016
479
1,588
Oops, I meant current youth prospects obviously! But I'd say you're wrong about Rebrov. He was adored by the online Spurs community and most of the posts centred around why Rebrov should be in the team instead of Sheringham!
Rebrov was largely terrible (despite being good in another league and his country) much like Paulinho was largely terrible (despite being good in another league and his country) and much like Sissoko has been largely terrible (despite being good in another league and his country).
 

SpursD22

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2017
4,682
8,929
As for the silly bollocks argument. A lot of fans won't rate certain first team squad players. Let's take Sissoko for example. Sissoko of 17/18 is almost certainly and comfortably a better player than ANY of our midfield youth prospects will EVER be. He may not be good enough for Spurs but he is significantly better than Onomah for example. He is significantly better than Jake Livermore, Nabil Bentaleb, Tom Carroll or Ryan Mason were when they all played for Spurs (and beyond Spurs).

Why do some Spurs fans think Bentaleb is average? He’s a starter for a team that finished second In the Bundesliga and will play in the CL next season. He’s still only 23 and I would much rather have him than Sissoko, at least the club got a decent fee for him.
He didn’t have the best end of his Spurs career but that’s because he came back from a injury and was low on confidence.
 

C0YS

Just another member
Jul 9, 2007
12,780
13,817
Yes and no. You still have to be realistic. A successful academy is one that creates professional footballers that can also be sold at a profit. In terms of youngsters breaking into the actual first team there are very few who break into the first team in a Premier League club. Among all teams. And that is because most academy prospects ultimately aren't good enough to play Premier League football. In some cases that is down to poor mentality or lack of football intelligence and in other cases it is simply lack of ability (especially the case with a lot physically strong and athletic players at youth level). The first team is not the place to weed them out. That's what the various stages of youth teams and loans are for.

As for the silly bollocks argument. A lot of fans won't rate certain first team squad players. Let's take Sissoko for example. Sissoko of 17/18 is almost certainly and comfortably a better player than ANY of our midfield youth prospects will EVER be. He may not be good enough for Spurs but he is significantly better than Onomah for example. He is significantly better than Jake Livermore, Nabil Bentaleb, Tom Carroll or Ryan Mason were when they all played for Spurs (and beyond Spurs). Is he better than Winks? Difficult to say. But Winks was around the first team for a while before he got his chance. Because when Poch feels a youngster is potentially good enough he does give them plenty of first team exposure.

To be honest this is an argument I seem to have every generation. I remember arguing relentlessly on the old newsgroups and Glory Glory back in the early 00's against people who were claiming Simon Davies should be in the team instead of Poyet, Etherington should be getting games instead of Ziege and Gardner should be in the team instead of Richards. And then later down the line having similar discussions around Tom Huddlestone, Phil Ifil etc. This is nothing new.
Look I tend to be deeply cynical at what I see as wild optimism in this thread, however, this post takes it too far. I agree with the first paragraph.

The second paragraph is not true though, Onomah, on what we have seen of him in a spurs shirt, granted. Bentaleb and Mason is just silly, they were our first choice midfield in a team that finished 5th, Bentaleb in particular was very talented, why he left was clearly about something not really linked to his performances. Mason was never really consistent enough but he was dynamic and moved the ball quickly. Both were fine servants for the club. I think Winks will be better than all of them by the end of it, and certainly this season Winks has been ahead Sissoko in the pecking order.

In your third paragraph its a bit strange because your now picking successful players. Gardner did displace Richards, Davies not only displaced Poyet but also won a player of the season award at Spurs. Huddlestone ended up playing over 200 games for us and was a vital cog in the team that qualified to champions league. Only Phil Ifil out of the players listed actually failed to make it, ironically the only player of those you listed actually to come from the academy.

Anyway, this youth team is more talented than that one, but I do agree that there seems to be this kind of rush and eagerness to see players come through. Its not a rush, Walker-Peters is crazy young for a full-back still, and he is miles ahead of Rose at the same age. Onomah is still a kid, really as well.

As a team we should be looking at getting players through when they are ready, when they can step onto a pitch and be trusted to do a job. Just like big players shouldn't be picked on their reputations, youth players shouldn't be picked based on the idea of giving youth a chance. They should be picked because they have demonstrated that they are the best player to that job.

Its as has always been said for years now, the idea is get them into the first team at 21/22, Poch has been pretty much sticking to that brief. At that age the player is either released or is a part of the first team. Poch isn't bad with youth, and Tottenham has a team have always been terrible at bringing players through, always. Even in the sixties, eighties etc. The fact of the matter there are only three spurs youth graduates who can be considered Tottenham greats Hoddle, King and now Kane. Even since I've been watching Spurs, before Poch was here the only youth graduates who played more than twenty odd games were Townsend, King, O'Hara and Livermore [at a stretch], the situation has certainly improved.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
Rebrov was largely terrible (despite being good in another league and his country) much like Paulinho was largely terrible (despite being good in another league and his country) and much like Sissoko has been largely terrible (despite being good in another league and his country).

Disagree Windy, Rebrov was an extremely good little footballer, completely wasted Hoddle, who as a player was a genius, as a coach, an idiot.
 

C0YS

Just another member
Jul 9, 2007
12,780
13,817
Why do some Spurs fans think Bentaleb is average? He’s a starter for a team that finished second In the Bundesliga and will play in the CL next season. He’s still only 23 and I would much rather have him than Sissoko, at least the club got a decent fee for him.
He didn’t have the best end of his Spurs career but that’s because he came back from a injury and was low on confidence.

Tbf, while mostly down to injuries he has started only ten games this season, and even wen fit has found himself drifting in and out of squads. Wouldn't complain to have him as an option here.

Milos Veljkovic had a lot of fans here, I always thought he got turned to easily to make it as a defender but was much more suited to a midfield role. He was never really get a chance in poch team was here, completely the wrong kind of player.

I know a lot see his time in Werder Bremen as showing he cold of contributed something here, but for me its shown the opposite, that while good he probably isn't quite good enough to make the grade here. And Werder Bremen fans are yet to be convinced by him, and while admire much of his game he seems to get bullied a lot and his positioning isn't great. The former is a real barrier for work in this league.
 

C0YS

Just another member
Jul 9, 2007
12,780
13,817
Disagree Windy, Rebrov was an extremely good little footballer, completely wasted Hoddle, who as a player was a genius, as a coach, an idiot.
Yes, which explains his massive successes at the likes of West Ham and Fenerbahçe, Wait? That didn't happen..,
 

steve

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2003
3,503
1,767
Look I tend to be deeply cynical at what I see as wild optimism in this thread, however, this post takes it too far. I agree with the first paragraph.

The second paragraph is not true though, Onomah, on what we have seen of him in a spurs shirt, granted. Bentaleb and Mason is just silly, they were our first choice midfield in a team that finished 5th, Bentaleb in particular was very talented, why he left was clearly about something not really linked to his performances. Mason was never really consistent enough but he was dynamic and moved the ball quickly. Both were fine servants for the club. I think Winks will be better than all of them by the end of it, and certainly this season Winks has been ahead Sissoko in the pecking order.

In your third paragraph its a bit strange because your now picking successful players. Gardner did displace Richards, Davies not only displaced Poyet but also won a player of the season award at Spurs. Huddlestone ended up playing over 200 games for us and was a vital cog in the team that qualified to champions league. Only Phil Ifil out of the players listed actually failed to make it, ironically the only player of those you listed actually to come from the academy.

Anyway, this youth team is more talented than that one, but I do agree that there seems to be this kind of rush and eagerness to see players come through. Its not a rush, Walker-Peters is crazy young for a full-back still, and he is miles ahead of Rose at the same age. Onomah is still a kid, really as well.

As a team we should be looking at getting players through when they are ready, when they can step onto a pitch and be trusted to do a job. Just like big players shouldn't be picked on their reputations, youth players shouldn't be picked based on the idea of giving youth a chance. They should be picked because they have demonstrated that they are the best player to that job.

Its as has always been said for years now, the idea is get them into the first team at 21/22, Poch has been pretty much sticking to that brief. At that age the player is either released or is a part of the first team. Poch isn't bad with youth, and Tottenham has a team have always been terrible at bringing players through, always. Even in the sixties, eighties etc. The fact of the matter there are only three spurs youth graduates who can be considered Tottenham greats Hoddle, King and now Kane. Even since I've been watching Spurs, before Poch was here the only youth graduates who played more than twenty odd games were Townsend, King, O'Hara and Livermore [at a stretch], the situation has certainly improved.
Steve Perryman I would add to that list.
 

coy-spurs1882

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
3,989
10,442
Are you for real?
Do you not know what it means by implication?
The players who perform get rewarded and those that are not performing don't.
kwp and onomah won the u20 world cup with england, i guess it is "not performing" then
 

spurs9

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
11,840
34,012
Why do some Spurs fans think Bentaleb is average? He’s a starter for a team that finished second In the Bundesliga and will play in the CL next season. He’s still only 23 and I would much rather have him than Sissoko, at least the club got a decent fee for him.
He didn’t have the best end of his Spurs career but that’s because he came back from a injury and was low on confidence.
4 CM's played more often than him (Goretzka, Meyer, Harit and McKennie) all of which are younger than him, so I think it is a but of a stretch calling him a starter, when he is essentially 5th choice for a role in the 3 CMs.
 

beats1

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2010
30,006
29,551
These overblown stupid assessments of youth players is part of the problem. I recall people explaining in great detail on here how amazing Tom Carroll is, how much better than Dier he is. Yet Dier is Pochettino's most trusted player at Tottenham and he's part of a team that has made it into the Champions League for 3 seasons straight. Tom Carroll has been drifting in and out of a Swansea team relegated.
I doubt this, they dont play the same position at all:cautious:

The only scenario I could possible imagine people wanting Carroll over Dier is if he is next to wanyama, as that is hard to watch.
As I said the only justification for worrying is if Man City or somebody of that level is going in for a youth player the club let go of in the past few years. That's clearly not the case. If they're in for Bennetts next summer some questions need to be asked. I'll wager they won't be though.
Funny because Rose, arguably one of the best LB's in the last 3 seasons, was deemed not good enough at 21 for Bristol yet because of Ferdinand/Sherwood was given a chance despite being poor at bristol.

So a player who had a potential career ending injury at 17, and wasnt a standout player at 20, were not to be given a chance. Everyone here would be vindicated

Also when you leave spurs the club doesnt let you go to your rivals or necessarily to a good club, so in turn players have to fight their way back up. For example look at Berchiche, he has gone from going to the 3rd tier of spanish football to starting LB for PSG
 

Cornpattbuck

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,873
15,942
I doubt this, they dont play the same position at all:cautious:

The only scenario I could possible imagine people wanting Carroll over Dier is if he is next to wanyama, as that is hard to watch.

Funny because Rose, arguably one of the best LB's in the last 3 seasons, was deemed not good enough at 21 for Bristol yet because of Ferdinand/Sherwood was given a chance despite being poor at bristol.

So a player who had a potential career ending injury at 17, and wasnt a standout player at 20, were not to be given a chance. Everyone here would be vindicated

Also when you leave spurs the club doesnt let you go to your rivals or necessarily to a good club, so in turn players have to fight their way back up. For example look at Berchiche, he has gone from going to the 3rd tier of spanish football to starting LB for PSG

Not sure I follow the Rose comments. Didn't he come back to the club from Bristol because of injuries, and then went out on loan to Sunderland and really matured as a full back during his time there...
 

Blake Griffin

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2011
14,133
38,225
Not sure I follow the Rose comments. Didn't he come back to the club from Bristol because of injuries, and then went out on loan to Sunderland and really matured as a full back during his time there...

i think his point is that at 21 it would have been easy to look at rose's loans and say he'll never be good enough, much like some are saying about onomah, or even more strangely about the likes of tob or skipp who are barely 17/18. heck, it took rose until he was 24/25 until he started to convince people and he still managed to become arguably the best lb in the league(up until his recent injury) so it just makes a mockery of those who want to put such a cap on any of our young players coming through.
 
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mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,886
32,513
As for the silly bollocks argument. A lot of fans won't rate certain first team squad players. Let's take Sissoko for example. Sissoko of 17/18 is almost certainly and comfortably a better player than ANY of our midfield youth prospects will EVER be. He may not be good enough for Spurs but he is significantly better than Onomah for example. He is significantly better than Jake Livermore, Nabil Bentaleb, Tom Carroll or Ryan Mason were when they all played for Spurs (and beyond Spurs). Is he better than Winks? Difficult to say. But Winks was around the first team for a while before he got his chance. Because when Poch feels a youngster is potentially good enough he does give them plenty of first team exposure.

But Sissoko. Everyone keeps saying how shit he is, "worst footballer in a Spurs shirt". And yes if you're expecting a modric or a dembele then you'll be disappointed. He's not great technically and maybe that's what we need but the guy gives something we didn't have, the combination of power and pace with boundless energy and a never say die attitude. I've never heard a negative word from him despite almost every FAN of the club mocking him, slating him, deriding him. He works hard and does what the manager asks. He's also on the French stand by list for the World Cup so it's not just Pochs.
Whilst he may not be good enough in quality for Spurs i think the way he's been treated by fans is disgusting. And to those saying he's no better than TOB or Skipp are quite literally taking the piss because even if they may be technically better neither of those players are even near his level. Are TOB or Skipp international level?

Sissoko might be bigger, but barring half a dozen 'power runs' a season there is absolutely no footballing metric where he is better. Attack, defence, technique, vision, work rate, positional game, game/space awareness etc, etc.

The only qualities that guy has is as a comfort blanket to managers making ultra pragmatic, cowardly decisions.

I'd take any half-decent youth prospect instead of him. In fact, I'd take any half decent footballer (man, woman, or child) on the planet.

Anyway, back on topic.....
 

Cornpattbuck

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,873
15,942
i think his point is that at 21 it would have been easy to look at rose's loans and say he'll never be good enough, much like some are saying about onomah, or even more strangely about the likes of tob or skipp who are barely 17/18. heck, it took rose until he was 24/25 until he started to convince people and he still managed to become arguably the best lb in the league(up until his recent injury) so it just makes a mockery of those who want to put such a cap on any of our young players coming through.

Sorry, I must have missed some recent convos. No worries.

I'm sure there was a comment a few years back that mentioned that, unless someone was particularly special, we usually aim to have kids first team ready by 22ish.

Hence why I always preach patience and not to overanalyse week by week, whether they're on their loan or otherwise...
 
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