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The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

IGSpur

IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2013
7,939
13,758
Westmorlandspur said:
Panzo from Chelsea reported to be moving to Monaco...team up with Emenalo.
Click to expand...

Good for him. Who knows where he'd be right now, if he had the same development opportunities as Empadu, seeing as Empadu couldn't get into that age group when they were u16s. Despite initially being deemed a lesser player by coaches he ended up playing international football the following season, due to being fortunate enough to play for Exeter.

Hopefully Panzo gets out early, and continues to develop. Got a long future ahead of him
 
camhall88

camhall88

Well-Known Member
Aug 16, 2011
57
552
JRSG said:
the 'money too soon' is just a lazy shiny object that prevents any realistic or in depth analysis of the individual situations so they can blame it on the players.
Click to expand...

The thing is, that the club has identified and is actioning the fact that young players have far too many distractions that can hinder their development. Not just money, cars, girls, status... Everyone is motivated by different things and distracted by different things. Players in our academy earn 35-40,000 a year with the exception of Edwards etc which although it is a lot of money for a kid, it isn't the riches that some imagine. With the likes of Wayne Burnett and Scott Parker around these players and Ryan Mason's input and the amount of effort and research they are doing into the psychology of the young players, I think that this will improve greatly.
 
brendanb50

brendanb50

Well-Known Member
Jul 21, 2005
4,486
3,895
camhall88 said:
The thing is, that the club has identified and is actioning the fact that young players have far too many distractions that can hinder their development. Not just money, cars, girls, status... Everyone is motivated by different things and distracted by different things. Players in our academy earn 35-40,000 a year with the exception of Edwards etc which although it is a lot of money for a kid, it isn't the riches that some imagine. With the likes of Wayne Burnett and Scott Parker around these players and Ryan Mason's input and the amount of effort and research they are doing into the psychology of the young players, I think that this will improve greatly.
Click to expand...

Good post - I hope so too. I agree with @JRSG that the money factor (or at a minimum, the privilege factor) is used as a very lazy tool to criticise young footballers and actually does nothing to progress a solution.

Having read Poch's book and noted some of our focuses for these young players, i agree with your comment as well - we're definitely looking at ways to improve focus and remove messy distractions from their lives. As you noted, everyone is motivated differently, so there's no one size fits all but i do think it will serve us well to give this the attention it deserves.

In my very inexperienced understanding - Poch seems to me to want to encourage passion and fun into his players - the whole 'feel' in my view is akin creating a space where the players can play - not just play football like it's a drill - i mean actually play like it's the best thing in the world to be doing and enjoying every minute of it. Whether it's training, fitness or actually playing - the passion he wants needs to be drawn out initially but i'm sure once it's there (and i think it is) it's infectious.
 
W

Westmorlandspur

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2013
2,834
4,683
IGSpur said:
Good for him. Who knows where he'd be right now, if he had the same development opportunities as Empadu, seeing as Empadu couldn't get into that age group when they were u16s. Despite initially being deemed a lesser player by coaches he ended up playing international football the following season, due to being fortunate enough to play for Exeter.

Hopefully Panzo gets out early, and continues to develop. Got a long future ahead of him
Click to expand...
I wonder if this increasing movement of young players abroad might make some of our clubs think again about getting some first team minutes for their youth. Unless they have buy back clauses we are going to lose some very good players. Will be interesting to see if Foden gets much game time at city as they have said there will not be a loan for him.if he is involved over the next two seasons he could easily be at the euros for England. He is what we don’t have.
 
IGSpur

IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2013
7,939
13,758
camhall88 said:
The thing is, that the club has identified and is actioning the fact that young players have far too many distractions that can hinder their development. Not just money, cars, girls, status... Everyone is motivated by different things and distracted by different things. Players in our academy earn 35-40,000 a year with the exception of Edwards etc which although it is a lot of money for a kid, it isn't the riches that some imagine. With the likes of Wayne Burnett and Scott Parker around these players and Ryan Mason's input and the amount of effort and research they are doing into the psychology of the young players, I think that this will improve greatly.
Click to expand...

Ultimately the only thing that really matters is chances, nothing else.

I remember a few years back when I was praising Loftus-Cheek having only judged him off academy matches and said he was as good as Winks, Alli and the like, but he 'wasn't good enough for Chelsea'. Then we found out that he was earning more than Eriksen and everyone criticised the money being thrown around and how it was a distraction. Even at the start of last season I still remember people laughing at the thought that he was anywhere near Alli or Winks' level and I still thought he was as good as them but there was apparently 'no evidence' to back up this claim. He had only played in dead rubbers while the others were playing PL football.

Then with no more game time, he was sent on loan to a PL club and from that earned a place in the England team at the World Cup now we're linked to him and some fans want to sign him, and he's probably also now valued at around 40m.

At the start of the season he was a lazy' over-paid youngster with no passion, who had only done it in academy games, which gave no insight into his ability. Do people honestly believe anything has changed wrt his ability in one season. No. These guys have this ability and they are just waiting to be trusted.

The only thing that changed was that he was given a chance. If he never went to Palace, he would, like Onomah be another academy player who has only done it against youth, that isn't good enough to be given chances at a top 6 club, and therefore not good enough, or lazy, or over entitled or whatever excuse is fired at these youngsters. RLC has probably over taken Barkley who we previously wanted to sign. I find it incredible how people genuinely have no clue what England are missing out on from academies as they go chasing the latest in form kid.

There's a reason, there are only around 3 players in Englands starting WC team that are from top 6 clubs it's because they generally get their debuts and chances in the lower leagues. The top 6 clubs can afford any player they want, they have the best coaches, and yet the only players that come through are from lower leagues, surely people must understand that the top 6 clubs will have better players and just giving them the chance will help.

I've bit my tongue on this but reading the Grealish and Ndombele stuff I find it incredible.

One player started in France's 2nd division, and from there got opportunities in Ligue 1 and now he's valued at 40m, then we're also after a player who's had a decent season in England's 2nd tier and now we're after him for 40m. But we have someone in our academy who has played his first league season in a stronger league than Ndombele played his debut season and played in the same league as Grealish who isn't exactly tearing the league up. He also covers both positions somewhat as those 2 players and even RLC but we will be afraid to give him a chance, as he's only done it against kids despite actually having great stats for a CM in his first year. If we actually bought all 3, I know we won't, I don't even want to consider how much they'd all cost, but we have someone who could be as good for free. Annoyingly I completely understand why we can't compete with other clubs, but this stuff is absolutely frustrating, how a lack of guts or trust leads us to spunking money we could use elsewhere. I remember being concerned about Alli at 5m at one point, but now it's getting ridiculous.

People love to find reasons, for academy players not coming through, and the onyl one is a lack of trust and cajones from managers. That is it. Not all players will make it, but when the best of your best can't get a proper chance, it's not because they earn too much, it's because we're so fearful of trying them out we'd rather throw 80m around at players who have just a had a good season, rather than appreciating development.
 
camhall88

camhall88

Well-Known Member
Aug 16, 2011
57
552
brendanb50 said:
Good post - I hope so too. I agree with @JRSG that the money factor (or at a minimum, the privilege factor) is used as a very lazy tool to criticise young footballers and actually does nothing to progress a solution.

Having read Poch's book and noted some of our focuses for these young players, i agree with your comment as well - we're definitely looking at ways to improve focus and remove messy distractions from their lives. As you noted, everyone is motivated differently, so there's no one size fits all but i do think it will serve us well to give this the attention it deserves.

In my very inexperienced understanding - Poch seems to me to want to encourage passion and fun into his players - the whole 'feel' in my view is akin creating a space where the players can play - not just play football like it's a drill - i mean actually play like it's the best thing in the world to be doing and enjoying every minute of it. Whether it's training, fitness or actually playing - the passion he wants needs to be drawn out initially but i'm sure once it's there (and i think it is) it's infectious.
Click to expand...

Agreed! I was extremely fortunate recently to be able to sit down with one of the development coaches and pick his brains about culture and effort and got some really interesting insight. The one thing that was said was the incredible effort and intensity in every session and how that is the difference in many occasions between a player making it or not. Remember, these kids have more than likely been the best player in every single team they have ever played for - constantly being told they are the best.. so it takes a lot for them to lift to the levels and energy required to make it to first team level.. skill a lot of the time isnt the factor. Look at Marcus Edwards, look at Oliver Skipp who was going so well for so long but just tapered off the last few months of the season. I will say though that after having that chat - i walked away full of confidence that our young talent is in the very, very best of hands
 
camhall88

camhall88

Well-Known Member
Aug 16, 2011
57
552
IGSpur said:
Ultimately the only thing that really matters is chances, nothing else.

I remember a few years back when I was praising Loftus-Cheek having only judged him off academy matches and said he was as good as Winks, Alli and the like, but he 'wasn't good enough for Chelsea'. Then we found out that he was earning more than Eriksen and everyone criticised the money being thrown around and how it was a distraction. Even at the start of last season I still remember people laughing at the thought that he was anywhere near Alli or Winks' level and I still thought he was as good as them but there was apparently 'no evidence' to back up this claim. He had only played in dead rubbers while the others were playing PL football.

Then with no more game time, he was sent on loan to a PL club and from that earned a place in the England team at the World Cup now we're linked to him and some fans want to sign him, and he's probably also now valued at around 40m.

At the start of the season he was a lazy' over-paid youngster with no passion, who had only done it in academy games, which gave no insight into his ability. Do people honestly believe anything has changed wrt his ability in one season. No. These guys have this ability and they are just waiting to be trusted.

The only thing that changed was that he was given a chance. If he never went to Palace, he would, like Onomah be another academy player who has only done it against youth, that isn't good enough to be given chances at a top 6 club, and therefore not good enough, or lazy, or over entitled or whatever excuse is fired at these youngsters. RLC has probably over taken Barkley who we previously wanted to sign. I find it incredible how people genuinely have no clue what England are missing out on from academies as they go chasing the latest in form kid.

There's a reason, there are only around 3 players in Englands starting WC team that are from top 6 clubs it's because they generally get their debuts and chances in the lower leagues. The top 6 clubs can afford any player they want, they have the best coaches, and yet the only players that come through are from lower leagues, surely people must understand that the top 6 clubs will have better players and just giving them the chance will help.

I've bit my tongue on this but reading the Grealish and Ndombele stuff I find it incredible.

One player started in France's 2nd division, and from there got opportunities in Ligue 1 and now he's valued at 40m, then we're also after a player who's had a decent season in England's 2nd tier and now we're after him for 40m. But we have someone in our academy who has played his first league season in a stronger league than Ndombele played his debut season and played in the same league as Grealish who isn't exactly tearing the league up. He also covers both positions somewhat as those 2 players and even RLC but we will be afraid to give him a chance, as he's only done it against kids despite actually having great stats for a CM in his first year. If we actually bought all 3, I know we won't, I don't even want to consider how much they'd all cost, but we have someone who could be as good for free. Annoyingly I completely understand why we can't compete with other clubs, but this stuff is absolutely frustrating, how a lack of guts or trust leads us to spunking money we could use elsewhere. I remember being concerned about Alli at 5m at one point, but now it's getting ridiculous.

People love to find reasons, for academy players not coming through, and the only one is a lack of trust and cajones from managers. That is it. Not all players will make it, but when the best of your best can't get a proper chance, it's not because they earn too much, it's because we're so fearful of trying them out we'd rather throw 80m around at players who have just a had a good season, rather than appreciating development.
Click to expand...

Wow! Exceptionally worded and couldn't have put a lot of it better myself! One thing that i will say however is that i think fans can be the worst enemy when it comes to this kind of thing. Imagine the difference of fan reaction if we were to sign Ndombele to if we were to offer an U23 a first team spot... The clubs feel that pressure and feel as though they need to put their hands in their pockets and write big cheques for shiny new signings in order to sell shirts and get people through the gate.

The other thing that i will point out in regards to promoting players etc is that we only see a very small snippet. We all watched Marcus Edwards have his 15 minutes in the first team and we all saw an immense talent with a ridiculous amount of skill.. but what we don't see is the training and behind the scenes where Edwards is putting in anywhere near the amount of effort required to break into the first team. Edwards has played more minutes for England across all levels than he has for Tottenham across all levels!
 
Blake Griffin

Blake Griffin

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2011
14,149
38,348
camhall88 said:
ok mate.... as above i was referring to when he received his squad number onwards.... i stand by the rest of what i said though
Click to expand...

since the beginning of the 16/17 season(when he received his 1st team squad #) he's played 2300 mins for spurs and 780 for england. also have to bear in mind that he spent the 2nd half of last season at norwich and the 1st half of the previous season initially with the first team and then out injured, otherwise he'd have played more for us.
 
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