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The Spurs Youth Thread - 2018/19

ljinko888

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2016
2,080
5,376
U23 seems a broad issue. Infrequent matches and the lack of competitiveness. It's been mentioned before but the old reserve system at least allowed first teamers recovering from injury play a part in the reserves and it actually feeling "genuine".

There was an exception when Van Gaal was in England. He had a policy that returning players who have spent a while out from injury had to have a game or maybe two or three with the U23s as an overage player in order to get match fitness, for him to select them again for the first team. A few years ago Falcao played against our U23 team for Man Utd's U23 and he was pocketed by Carter-Vickers. Van Persie played against Fulham's U23s. Fellaini scored against Liverpool U23. It was quite notable because these were big names who were in the peak years playing against youngsters who never kicked a ball in first team football.

But generally speaking the U23 level is in an odd state. The ones who stand out at youth level tend to get fast tracked to being involved in first team training, and maybe making the odd matchday squad, or going on loan. That leaves the U23 options depleted and with all due respect a player like Georgiou - who is 21 now - should really be making a move to start his professional career but he's still sticking around.
 

JRSG

Active Member
Mar 25, 2015
70
117
i think we're being hurt by poor planning and lack a clear idea as to what we're trying to achieve, some of the decisions recently are at odds with the whole development philosophy that we like to preach. i basically think we're just too slow in everything we do, whether that's moving players up, on loan, or out of the club. at the same time though we've also hastily moved the best prospects out of youth football and into full-time training, at 17-18 they still have a lot to gain from playing games and I don't think it helps their development to take that away from them. how i'd personally like to see us run is to keep the u18s primarily to 1st year players and supplement them with those 2nd years who aren't ready to move up to the u23s. then the u23s i'd have the best 2nd years along with all the 3rd years. any 4th years bar the odd exception i'd be getting out on loan or moving them out of the club permanently. some fringe first teamers can also play a few games here and there to a) keep them a little more match sharp and b) to help the younger players by having better quality/experience to learn from.

i don't know about the other big clubs but it just seems like we have such a bloated amount of players in the academy, we must have nigh on 50 players spilt across two levels. i know it's a bit crude but if i were to rank the players in terms of tiers, say 1-5, i'd probably place half of them in tiers 4-5. i know it's unrealistic to expect us to have 50 tier 1-2 players but we need to be a bit more ruthless and stop hanging onto those towards the bottom for so long. it doesn't help the balance when we're losing players towards the top end of the scale either.

It what Manchester United did last season. Ended up with some good U18s playing up and a load of 20 year olds who have absolutely no hope of playing for United and maybe no hope of playing in the top tier.
 

coys200

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2017
8,436
17,403
Ultimately I’d say most PL teams would be more than happy bringing through 1 kid to the fringes of the team a season. And we are just about keeping up that ratio over last 4 to 5 years. Kane Onomah winks Ccv KWP Hopefully Skipp or Amos this season. It’s alot more than some other clubs are doing.
 

guru

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2018
233
413
It is early days yet so I could be proved wrong but I think our U23's are going to struggle. We are so weak in attack without the presence of Sterling. The defence needs a more mature player (possibly Foyth) as a guiding light and the midfield is woefully light without Skipp and Amos. I cannot make out the clubs attitude to the U23's. For the life of me I cannot understand why the club did not sign a few good young players this summer and develop them over time in the Club ethos and style of play. I can think of players such as Bayliss at Coventry and Wilmott ,now at Watford. If, as I suspect, Georgiou, Amos and Harrison go on loan then the team we will put out for the Check-a-trade Cup could get badly beaten which will do their confidence no good at all. When Griffiths and Bennetts left they should have been replaced.
All the players you are naming sterling , Amos , skipp , Georgiou , Bennett’s were all involved heavily with the u23 last season , but we still managed to nearly get relegated , in fact I think 1 game saved us from relegation . I am beginning to think it’s down to bad mamagement and coaching .
 

beats1

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2010
30,006
29,551
Harsh. TOB has had a significant number of injuries over the last 12 months.
TBH I dont know how, I'm being harsh. He is a very talented kid and a great prospect but he should have been allowed to progress in the U23 consistently before getting moved to the first team where he did nothing but train

People have a go on here saying we overrate the youth and then have a go when we say that certain players are being wasted or rushed.

People on here blindly follow the club whatever they do regardless, like when AVB gave Lameiras a chance and Dombaxe, TOB is better than both of them but he shouldn't have been rushed through imo

A lot on here have been laughing about Wenger in his last 5 years and how their academy has gone downhill but they had struggles between Brady and Wenger over the use of youth players. Wenger's philosophy was they needed to be training at the best facilities and best players to learn their trade whilst Brady was angry at the fact the players were ready and weren't kicking on as they weren't given a chance
 

DJS

A hoonter must hoont
Dec 9, 2006
31,261
21,760
And the good ones either leave or don't develop as hoped

We've got Kane and Winks through, as well as making good money off some sales, so we shouldn't be overly negative. But it feels like the last three or four years have seen a backward step.

Ironic when you consider the manager and his reputation

Yeah I think the youth does need to be developed better.

Kane and Winks are both decent successes and Poch would say Mason and Bentaleb were massive pluses for him when he first was appointed (Mason was so unlucky with injuries, I reckon he would have made it with us if not for them) but likes of Pritchard were handled poorly and perhaps this
It is early days yet so I could be proved wrong but I think our U23's are going to struggle. We are so weak in attack without the presence of Sterling. The defence needs a more mature player (possibly Foyth) as a guiding light and the midfield is woefully light without Skipp and Amos. I cannot make out the clubs attitude to the U23's. For the life of me I cannot understand why the club did not sign a few good young players this summer and develop them over time in the Club ethos and style of play. I can think of players such as Bayliss at Coventry and Wilmott ,now at Watford. If, as I suspect, Georgiou, Amos and Harrison go on loan then the team we will put out for the Check-a-trade Cup could get badly beaten which will do their confidence no good at all. When Griffiths and Bennetts left they should have been replaced.

Where’s Sterling?

Is he injured or training with first team squad?

He’s someone I’d have liked to have actually been given some bench time for us and league cup starts.

Last summer he was involved in our pre-season and scored if remember rightly, showed promise.
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,886
32,513
Ok this took me about three goes, last night and this morning.....


As well as what has already been mentioned, I think the academy is and has been struggling to adapt to various change.

One of those changes is Pochettino. I think under previous regimes, McDermott and co. were basically left alone to do what they want and had constructed a style (culminating in that really good U21 team from about 5 years ago that has been mentioned) that was along the lines of a classic Dutch/Spanish 4-3-3. The emphasis being on technical quality, often with smaller less physical players, and it built around a cm3 where the extra man provided safety in numbers, aided possession, and masked some of the defensive/physical deficiencies. And so a) players coming through were a reflection of this style and b) as this system was a bit less demanding on the players at it's heart, and aided ball retention, my opinion is it allowed more of them to flourish/a platform for them to play. It was being said not so long back that, even if we had gaps in other areas, Spurs knew and had a speciality on how to produce midfielders.

This next bit people might scoff at...... But Poch, for all the good he has done at this club, his approach was completely different to this, particularly in the centre of the pitch. I also think that he's more hands-on/interested in the youth section and so it's been remoulded more in his image. But that affected what was already here - He wants a physical and aggressive side across the pitch but particularly in the cm2 that covers more ground and does a lot more defensive work. Whether they are ultimately going to be good enough for Spurs or not, that's not what we'd been producing in the likes of Tom Carroll, or Veljkovic (in midfield very much a more static holding player in a cm3), Ryan Mason got his chance and did his best but a cm2 was never really his best role, Josh Onomah is another who would much more suit the cm3 he spent his formative years playing in, and there are others..... And apart from Pritchard it also left us with a blackhole (until the Edwards/Shashoua generation) in interchangeable attacking midfielders for the 4-2-3-1 because we were producing fairly limited wingers in the McEvoy, Oduwa, Sonupe mould.

So I think the age groups, particularly at U23 have been struggling to adapt to what the first team is now set up like, and in amongst it affecting the chances of certain players, I also think it accounts for some of the stranger decisions that have been made. For instance that season spent trying to reinvent Anton Walkes in more central/advanced roles, or the continuing Shilow Tracey experiment. It's been attempting to find that physical edge. Now after 4, coming up to 5 years of Poch being here, and those players now arriving towards the end of the academy process having had time to be moulded, you'd hope this has now been smoothed out, but I think there has been a hangover. I'm still not completely sure what we are producing is a reflection of what is wanted at first team level any way - I've made this point before more than once (and it doesn't really get traction, but...), but take our centre backs for instance. It's clear Poch (and indeed any possession based system) likes footballing centre backs. Ok we spent big on Sanchez but he's got Vertonghen, gone and brought Dier, Alderweireld, Foyth..... All ultra smooth with high technical quality and who might give up a bit physically but it's the footballing ability that is important. Now look at academy - people like CCV, Tanganga, Eyoma etc. are good prospects, can play a bit, but they're all a bit clunky and their strengths are their physical/athletic qualities rather than what they can do with the ball at their feet. Maybe it's still a work in progress, I haven't seen really anything of the likes of BLF or Binks to know if the process is now being refined, but this is an example where there isn't really joined up thinking and all working off the same page.


I also think some of the issues are because of the disruption there has been in the coaching set-up. In the last few years it's been very unsettled, that's going to be hard to overcome, but I'd also question some of the decisions and who the club has put in charge of key areas.

If you are a club with a defined style/philosophy across all age groups from top to bottom, then for me it's not just the players who need educating and immersing in this style of play it's the coaches too. They need to completely believe and know the ideas of what is being coached. The style of play, the coaching drills, as they work with older age groups the increasingly intricate tactical aspects and ideas etc. They need to know it all, and believe it, inside out. Start at the bottom and the ones with real talent work their way through the ranks like the kids in the academy to more senior positions - maybe even the most senior one with the first team, you never know. With some coaches, arguably our better ones in recent times, this has been the case, but when it comes to others Ehiogu (RIP) seemed to get fast-tracked to the reins of the U23 team and that's just continued. I get why you might want someone with managerial experience (especially now we're in the EFL competition) but what does Wayne Burnett offer or know about the ethos/style of play at our club? The same went for Scott Parker, even though everyone loved the thought of an undoubted model professional imparting his knowledge, what did he know about our systems of play and how to implement them? Matt Wells has served his apprenticeship, should in theory be well grounded/schooled and a good selection, we shall see.....

And whilst I'm not sure how it works, when it's the final stage to the first team surely there shouldn't be a massive gap to bridge in terms of the U23's. I saw a post yesterday about them doing completely separate drills etc. to the first team, and whilst I know players do get called up for training with the seniors in my opinion it should be as replicated as possible. I'd have thought one of Poch's trusted lieutenants should be overseeing/working with the U23's to get them in shape, get the drills replicated, tactics, and providing a bit more quality feedback as to the players available. Try to make that pathway as smooth as possible.
 
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Westmorlandspur

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2013
2,685
4,500
Producing youth players for the first team is not an exact science. For some strange reason they sometimes come in batches. Class of 92...Barca with Messi generation. We have let ourselves down over last couple of years with the players we have bought instead of playing youth. I think only Sanchez has proved his worth and we are currently trying to shift the rest. Probably not a bad thing for our youth that we didn’t buy anyone this summer. We will prob be forced to play youth players and sometimes this works out well. Rashford at Utd TTA played because of injuries in his position. It’s just up to the boys to seize the opportunity.
 

coys200

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2017
8,436
17,403

Yes. In the last 4-5 years we’ve brought through 2 established senior team players are now both England internationals one being the captain. And 3 fringe players one who now has 3 full international caps, another is a U20 WC winner. Compare to :
City- Foden on edge of squad
Chelsea- Christensen joined at 17 borderline if you can count him. No other player established in senior team. Although few PL loans been a success.
United- Rashford and lingard. I guess Mctominay on fringe.
Liverpool- TAA and Gomez also debatable.
Arsenal- Iwobi maitland- Niles

It’s not exactly like we are miles behind. In fact you could argue with 5 players in our current squad that could slot into 1st team if needed we are probably top of that list.
 

IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2013
7,939
13,758
Yes. In the last 4-5 years we’ve brought through 2 established senior team players are now both England internationals one being the captain. And 3 fringe players one who now has 3 full international caps, another is a U20 WC winner. Compare to :
City- Foden on edge of squad
Chelsea- Christensen joined at 17 borderline if you can count him. No other player established in senior team. Although few PL loans been a success.
United- Rashford and lingard. I guess Mctominay on fringe.
Liverpool- TAA and Gomez also debatable.
Arsenal- Iwobi maitland- Niles

It’s not exactly like we are miles behind. In fact you could argue with 5 players in our current squad that could slot into 1st team if needed we are probably top of that list.

So we have brought through Kane no-one can argue but it was incredibly fortuitous. Fair enough some people need that luck, and we can continue to point at him and say look how well we've done, but it masks what's gone on since. As people love pointing out we can't bring through players now as we are better so a fairer comparison would be how well we've brought players through since becoming a CL team compared to our rivals.

In this case we've brought through Winks who has had his injuries but he wasn't our established first choice CM. At comparable clubs Rashford, Lingard, TAA, Christensen, AMN, Bellerin are arguably all more established.

Then I don't know on what basis you claim CCV, Onomah, KWP, Or whoever are already to slot in.

Other clubs have just as many players 'ready to step in'as us, and I'm sure have given more competitive minutes to more academy players than is. I can't be arsed to research so I'll just link to a previous post I made near this time last season.

http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/index.php?threads/marcus-edwards.122831/page-74#post-5615757

We can add one more start fit KWP, a few more first Winks, and a load more for the other players, while including AMN.

Also players like Ake and Fosu-Mensah who are playing PL football in that time.

You really don't want to go into the minutes of your 'fringe players' for every KWP or CCV I can show you a Willock, Nelson and Nketiah at Arsenal for example.

We're not doing great by any means and people need to stop pretending we are.
 

nicdic

Official SC Padre
Admin
May 8, 2005
41,857
25,919
So we have brought through Kane no-one can argue but it was incredibly fortuitous. Fair enough some people need that luck, and we can continue to point at him and say look how well we've done, but it masks what's gone on since. As people love pointing out we can't bring through players now as we are better so a fairer comparison would be how well we've brought players through since becoming a CL team compared to our rivals.

In this case we've brought through Winks who has had his injuries but he wasn't our established first choice CM. At comparable clubs Rashford, Lingard, TAA, Christensen, AMN, Bellerin are arguably all more established.

Then I don't know on what basis you claim CCV, Onomah, KWP, Or whoever are already to slot in.

Other clubs have just as many players 'ready to step in'as us, and I'm sure have given more competitive minutes to more academy players than is. I can't be arsed to research so I'll just link to a previous post I made near this time last season.

http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/index.php?threads/marcus-edwards.122831/page-74#post-5615757

We can add one more start fit KWP, a few more first Winks, and a load more for the other players, while including AMN.

Also players like Ake and Fosu-Mensah who are playing PL football in that time.

You really don't want to go into the minutes of your 'fringe players' for every KWP or CCV I can show you a Willock, Nelson and Nketiah at Arsenal for example.

We're not doing great by any means and people need to stop pretending we are.

Every player that comes through, everywhere, has their fortune to get there. Very rarely is it not due to an injury crisis, or complete loss of form from the established players. To use this as a stick to beat Poch is ridiculous, and makes it difficult to take the rest of the post as seriously as we should. It makes it seem like it's agenda driven, though I don't believe it is.

Why have we always struggled to get our young players decent PL/Champ loans?
 

DCSPUR

Well-Known Member
Apr 15, 2005
3,918
5,415
So we have brought through Kane no-one can argue but it was incredibly fortuitous. Fair enough some people need that luck, and we can continue to point at him and say look how well we've done, but it masks what's gone on since. As people love pointing out we can't bring through players now as we are better so a fairer comparison would be how well we've brought players through since becoming a CL team compared to our rivals.

In this case we've brought through Winks who has had his injuries but he wasn't our established first choice CM. At comparable clubs Rashford, Lingard, TAA, Christensen, AMN, Bellerin are arguably all more established.

Then I don't know on what basis you claim CCV, Onomah, KWP, Or whoever are already to slot in.

Other clubs have just as many players 'ready to step in'as us, and I'm sure have given more competitive minutes to more academy players than is. I can't be arsed to research so I'll just link to a previous post I made near this time last season.

http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/index.php?threads/marcus-edwards.122831/page-74#post-5615757

We can add one more start fit KWP, a few more first Winks, and a load more for the other players, while including AMN.

Also players like Ake and Fosu-Mensah who are playing PL football in that time.

You really don't want to go into the minutes of your 'fringe players' for every KWP or CCV I can show you a Willock, Nelson and Nketiah at Arsenal for example.

We're not doing great by any means and people need to stop pretending we are.

I like a lot of what you post but do feel that you try too hard not to give Poch credit for certain things:
No fair minded person should disagree with the fact that Kane was pushed became the star he has under Poch. Similarly we know how Mason feels about Poch. Nabil came in under Timmy but was really given full responsibility under Poch (I still think sadly back to the positive Poch Nabil moment after Harry's NL winner from Nabil's cross.....if only he'd been better advised on the contract stuff). Walker and Rose became much better players. Winks was being talked about as starter for club and country before his injuries - again Poch's good work. And there are others.
Has he made mistakes - 100% - he is human. For instance Josh O losing time to Sissoko. Aurier being signed and taking time from KWP. Those are the biggest for me.
It is also interesting that he gets so much credit outside the club for young English talent we have bought and improved (Alli and Dier) but that is seem as distinct from the youth efforts.
 

mancman

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2006
363
688
Having just read that Chelsea have 31 (yes 31!) players on loan and I suspect earning in the region of £40m + (guess based on Danny Ings costing Southampton £2m for his loan from Liverpool). Also Man City have also 20+ players out on loan. I have looked at our squad and to be honest we would struggle to send out more than 6 (that is to decent clubs and standard). I was thinking of Janssen, Nkoudoh, Carter-Vickers, Amos, Georgiou and Ogilvie. The rest are either not ready, problematic (Edwards) or not good enough. Also Chelsea will still do well at U23 level (they reached the Check-a-trade final last year) and continue to dominate Youth football in this country. Spurs are just not competing in this very lucrative loan system market but more importantly our strength in depth is really questionable.
 

DCSPUR

Well-Known Member
Apr 15, 2005
3,918
5,415
Having just read that Chelsea have 31 (yes 31!) players on loan and I suspect earning in the region of £40m + (guess based on Danny Ings costing Southampton £2m for his loan from Liverpool). Also Man City have also 20+ players out on loan. I have looked at our squad and to be honest we would struggle to send out more than 6 (that is to decent clubs and standard). I was thinking of Janssen, Nkoudoh, Carter-Vickers, Amos, Georgiou and Ogilvie. The rest are either not ready, problematic (Edwards) or not good enough. Also Chelsea will still do well at U23 level (they reached the Check-a-trade final last year) and continue to dominate Youth football in this country. Spurs are just not competing in this very lucrative loan system market but more importantly our strength in depth is really questionable.
got to remember that Chelsea and City have the money to buy a LOT of players as assets knowing they will never make the first team but bring in income. It's like building a real estate portfolio. In my market, if you come in with 5 million USD for example, I could get you a 10-20% return annually dependant on your risk tolerance.....but you have to have the money in the first place to get the benefit.
 

ljinko888

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2016
2,080
5,376
Yes. In the last 4-5 years we’ve brought through 2 established senior team players are now both England internationals one being the captain. And 3 fringe players one who now has 3 full international caps, another is a U20 WC winner. Compare to :
City- Foden on edge of squad
Chelsea- Christensen joined at 17 borderline if you can count him. No other player established in senior team. Although few PL loans been a success.
United- Rashford and lingard. I guess Mctominay on fringe.
Liverpool- TAA and Gomez also debatable.
Arsenal- Iwobi maitland- Niles

It’s not exactly like we are miles behind. In fact you could argue with 5 players in our current squad that could slot into 1st team if needed we are probably top of that list.

Klopp hasn't done much either and his reputation like Poch's is largely inflated from former clubs. Gomez played first team matches for Charlton (24) so he doesn't count.

I agree with @IGSpur. We aren't doing well in this department and the muddled waters as @mpickard2087 brilliantly put is why. What is the strategy? Initially it was that we'd take the cream of the crop and have them train with the first team, learn the ropes from the senior players and Poch and his staff so they will be fast-tracked. Except they haven't been fast-tracked. We've bought some squad filler players who block their path and frankly haven't been worthwhile. Moreover at a point a training ground environment becomes sterile if you're not testing what you've learnt. Some of these guys go months with barely a game since training with the first team puts them away from the U23s. It's not just Onomah, KWP and our own products. Why doesn't Juan Foyth play with the U23s? He hasn't made a league appearance for the club and while it appears now he may head to Leeds on loan (good to work with Bielsa), he's barely played in 12 months.

Something I'd like to add lastly. It's true youth development is not linear and the process is not a science. Kane is the most notable outlier in terms of what youth watchers (and coaches no doubt) expected to what he has become. I think the common consensus was he'd become a solid PL striker if not at this club then somewhere else. On the other hand everyone including the manager hyped up Edwards and for many reasons he may not even make it in the PL. There is also different definitions of "giving youth a chance". Jose Mourinho for example classes giving debuts as him promoting youth. When he arrived at Man Utd he gave a list of 49 names of academy players he "promoted" (over a 16 year career at that point), yet further research showed most of them played 5-10 minutes at the end of a cup tie and were never seen again.

If that definition was applied to everyone then Poch has promoted loads in the past four years.

List of debuts under him:
Winks
Walker-Peters
Carter-Vickers
Onomah
Lesinak
Sterling
Edwards
Oakley-Boothe
Georgiou
Pritchard
Veijlkovic
Walkes
Harrison

However it's only Winks from that group who has progressed as a first team player. I'll give Poch credit for Kane and Mason too since he changed their Spurs careers. However the rest played a handful of games and moved on, or are still at the club but not really progressed.

Mourinho's not the sole person who uses that definition. Other managers do and many fans do to try and score points. Onomah as an example had over 30 first team games before going on loan but can you really say he has developed? I wouldn't. So while the record book shows Poch gave him 32 games (many will say enough to show if he's up to it or not), I don't think Poch has developed him because break it down in terms of number of starts/subs and position played. Starting and finishing a whole game is one appearance. Coming on in the 91st minute counts as one appearance. Two different contexts, but in the record - one appearance. There's more nuance to youth development than that.

In addition if that definition applied to everyone, Guardiola at City wouldn't look so bad since he's given out debuts to eight academy players in two seasons which is two more than Mourinho at Utd in the same time (6). So that shows it's bollocks.
 

mancman

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2006
363
688
got to remember that Chelsea and City have the money to buy a LOT of players as assets knowing they will never make the first team but bring in income. It's like building a real estate portfolio. In my market, if you come in with 5 million USD for example, I could get you a 10-20% return annually dependant on your risk tolerance.....but you have to have the money in the first place to get the benefit.
Accepted but why could not Spurs buy say 10 players (youngsters of potential) for say £40m - well within their range - this summer and then commence doing what Chelsea & City do. This tactic is employed by an increasing number of clubs like Juventus, Barcelona, Real Madrid and others. Whats not to like since out of the 10 (depending on the quality of our scouts) just maybe 1 or 2 could be an Eric Dier or a Dele Alli (combined cost £8m approx).
 
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