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The Spurs Youth Thread - 2018/19

Blake Griffin

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Oct 3, 2011
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Would like this to happen but don't think it will. Chances are if we cancel the loan, we'll look for another team to send Josh to for the rest of the season.

problem is though he may have played his way out of options and i don't see the point in swapping one struggling championship side for another, assuming that coming back to play for spurs is out of the question then the next best bet might be to pluck for a loan abroad and hope it works out.
 

EQP

EQP
Sep 1, 2013
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problem is though he may have played his way out of options and i don't see the point in swapping one struggling championship side for another, assuming that coming back to play for spurs is out of the question then the next best bet might be to pluck for a loan abroad and hope it works out.

If we were to cancel the loan, I'd hope our lack of depth would push Mauricio to give Onomah a chance. I have nothing to base this on but I feel if Josh were to come back in January, given our team spirit and how things are going, he'd come into the fold and instantly have an impact as a CM. Sounds like he's in a toxic environment at SheffWed and this outburst from the manager isn't going to make things better.
 

IGSpur

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Jan 11, 2013
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someone on bigsoccer said he's been with man utd recently, is that not the case then?

Not sure. I've seen no evidence of it on instagram, though if it's a case of he's just training with them until he signs I imagine he's been told not to put it up on social media. Between him and Shoretire United are gonna have a very good age group there.
 

IGSpur

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Jan 11, 2013
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" He needs play in an attacking side. He is talented imo. He picked the wrong club rather than us picking the wrong player. "

Funnily enough we've said the same thing, and it's interesting that even some of their fans have noticed it. SO frustrating. Josh isn't perfect by any stretch and has things to work on, but he's shown in a team that play football, England and even in the 2 games he played for us in central positions he has looked good.
 

Luka Van der Bale

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Jan 29, 2011
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I have no dog in this fight so am really just giving my opinion on what I've seen on them for the last 4/5 years. For 3/4 of those years TOB has been the better player. Skipp has always been exceptional too e.g. I definitely think Skipp was better than Winks at the same age it was just Kirby and TOB were better, again highlighted by a coach who worked with them closely in that time. The age difference thing, I kind of get what you mean but they would have all featured in the same international tournaments. It's swings and roundabouts Skipp would have been the biggest in his school year, whereas TOB would have been bigger in his international year. Edwards is born very late in the year and noone mentioned it as a reason why he might be at a disadvantage to others. Maghoma use to play in their age group, I would say that's more of a significant issue. TOB also played up along with Kirby and as I mentioned many times was better than the CMs a year older than him, so don't think the age thing is really relevant.

I'm just a person that won't dismiss what I have seen for 4/5 years due to what has changed in one year. If TOB got his head right I could see him still having a chance of making it at top level football, as he is a real natural talent. Not here as we're not gonna bring more than one through from this age group, and Skipp has the mentality and suitability for Poch's game but it could happen, if he left and got his head right. It's the same with Winks/Onomah. I'm not going to dismiss Onomah's ability because Winks is a more reliable player. I can understand why it doesn't make sense or why someone wouldn't believe or care for what I say even, but it's my opinion. Going back to TOB/Skipp outside of this year, the only year where you would say Skipp 'outperformed' TOB was 2017/18 since 2013 as TOB barely played in 16/17. TOB's first year in the academy he barely played any football and his development was handled poorly, which everyone agreed on while Skipp played regularly. We would both agree that playing would be better than not playing. Despite that England coaches still being deemed him the best option for England at the Euros, after looking and studying both of them. They also would have seen TOB and Skipp on an even field during trials etc. The following season, can't remember what happened with TOB but they still chose him for the World Cup where he was England's best midfielder. Would that have happened if Skipp was in there, I don't know but the England coaches obviously stuck with TOB for a reason and it paid off. Why would they not have gone with Skipp if they thought he was better? They owe nothing to either and just try to choose the best teams. As you know the year before TOB wasn't even playing football for us, as and there's a good chance when he did get to play he might have been rusty the same we've seen from older players who train with the first team drop back down then look rusty.

Either way there's no argument to be had that Skipp has played a lot better for us than TOB for various reasons. When I first saw Skipp, TOB and Kirby play I thought all 3 had the ability to play for Spurs first team in the future as they were 3 of the best players I'd ever seen in the academy. So as I say I don't really have a side to pick. When Kirby left people were only really comparing who would do best out of either of those two with noone really mentioning Skipp, because they were a fraction better. Skipp is someone I've rated highly and gone on about for age, he's someone I believe should have gone to the World Cup and the Euros for England, and he's someone I believe could be a World Class DM. In fact I've mentioned it a lot I feel he is even somewhat underrated with regards to his forward passing and ability to start and join attacks.

All my point was initially and to give context, was that I think TOB is still a better CM than Skipp, imo. Better means different things to different people. Are we talking ability, technique, potential, all of it, mentality, and all of these things are affected by opportunity, development and style of play both the team and the individual and how suited they are. You know that one player who doesn't work here might work elsewhere and vice versa. I always thought TOB would have a good chance of coming through here moreso than Onomah as he is versatile and plays like Bentaleb in a sense, but we've seen Poch prefers the more harrier types anyway. Would things have panned out differently if Skipp was integrated and TOB was left to play, who knows. I know TOB started off poorly anyway and I've given my reasons as to why. Maybe TOB never quite recovered from expecting to be the main man, whereas Skipp is a lot more adaptable. So many things are at play. Skipp is clearly ahead of TOB right now and rightly, so, only one of Skipp, TOB and Kirby were ever going to make it anyway here and all 3 had the potential to be top top players so, I'm happy regardless that one has been given a chance. It's the first case here where I can think that Poch has given one of our real top top players a proper chance in their favourite position. I'm ecstatic. And I'm sensible enough to know that he can't really give many more to others. I also don't expect Skipp to play many more this year, or be a first team regular as an 18 year old but more games here and there and being careful not to overwork him we could have a real player on our hands. So I'm real excited atm.

Always interesting going back and reading over old posts about them, to see where they were at different times and who was catching the eye, which I'm doing now

Also in saying all this, I don't really disagree with you. I think TOB is the better CM (in terms of ability) you asked why so gave you my reasons. If it was vice versa and you had just said that Skipp was our best CM I wouldn't have questioned it as it's also a fair assessment and there is more 'evidence' supporting that case anyway.

As I'm talking about all 3 of them, and I thought Skipp did so well yesterday, as a homage I'll post the first game I think I saw them play, when I didn't have a clue who was who at the time. As you can see, and like I say about Winks, their game has barely changed at all haha. To me they were just no. 4, 8 and 10 at the time and it was clear they were going to be playing for England. This was probably the best age group, I'd seen for us, which I said many times, and when I found out that City also had their golden generation in the same year, and Gomes was coming through and Chelsea had theirs. I knew that age group would start winning things.


It feels wrong to reply to such a long and insightful post without going into equal detail; I just want to preface this by saying that I really appreciate the knowledge you bring to this thread.

Do you really think it's fair to compare Skipp and Oakley-Boothe as if it's like with like? Whatever way you try to justify it, Skipp has played at least a year up his whole Spurs career. The very fact he's always played in the same teams as TOB is a huge testament in itself - in the case of any other player you'd be comparing (for example) TOB 2016-17 with Skipp 2017-18. It seems unfair to discount the age gap just because Skipp is a part of the same international age group. The fact we've chosen to consistently play him a year up is huge praise, and I don't recall many players who played so consistently above their age grade for us. Possibly just Carter-Vickers and Onomah?
 

THFCSPURS19

The Speaker of the Transfer Rumours Forum
Jan 6, 2013
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So, with Edwards, it's kinda strange he's suddenly not playing a minute of football - possible he's being punished?
 

kmk

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2014
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...-thriving-Oliver-Skipp-latest-make-debut.html

Mauricio Pochettino's talent school is thriving as Oliver Skipp is the latest product to make his debut... this will be his great legacy
  • Tottenham Under 18s are doing well and Under 19s produced a win in Barcelona
  • There is lots of talent out there and Spurs are not alone in producing stars
  • Mauricio Pochettino had made Spurs as a club where young players have a path
Tottenham don’t win the FA Youth Cup every year. In fact, they haven’t won it since 1990. They are not well placed in Premier League 2, an Under 23 competition designed for developing players.

Their Under 18s are doing well and the Under 19s produced a terrific win in Barcelona last week, but there are lots of talent out there and Spurs are not alone in producing fabulous teenage players.

What they are doing better than most elite clubs is bridging the treacherous void between youth football and the senior game.

When Mauricio Pochettino leaves, whether that is for Real Madrid in the summer or way off in the distant future, this will be his great legacy. He has established Spurs as a club where young players can rely on a pathway to the first team.

The latest to emerge is Oliver Skipp, a midfielder who does not always make England’s Under 18 squad but was perfectly assured and unruffled on his first Premier League start against Burnley on Saturday.

‘He played like a 30-year-old man,’ said Pochettino, having told 18-year-old Skipp he was in the team less than two hours before kick-off.

‘We didn’t want to tell him one day before. When they are younger and about to make their debut they start playing the game before it starts. Sometimes twice. They arrive to play tired because they spend so much time thinking.

‘We believe it is best when a player is to make his debut to tell him one hour and 15 minutes before we are going to play. You don’t have time to think so much. You prepare for the game and you play with freedom. That is our idea.’

It seems to work. The policy is helping Tottenham through an injury crisis which deepened a little further yesterday, with Eric Dier ruled out until the new year with appendicitis.

The trend was started under Tim Sherwood, Chris Ramsey and Les Ferdinand. They had the nerve to thrust Harry Kane and others into the team, and deserve credit, too.

So do Pochettino and his staff, who, when they were together at Southampton, showed their faith in youth and have continued at Spurs where they have handed debuts to 13 home-grown players, including seven in the Premier League.

Not everyone will prove successful. Pochettino came to regret his effusive praise of Marcus Edwards, who he hailed as his ‘Mini Messi’. Edwards is now 20 and on loan at Excelsior in Holland.

Others once hotly tipped are also out on loan, including Josh Onomah and Cameron Carter-Vickers, who met in the Championship on Saturday when Swansea beat Sheffield Wednesday.

Pochettino prefers to keep his most prized youngsters at the club to train with the first team so he can infuse his philosophy and better mould their attitude and approach to the profession and ensure, when they break into the first team, that they feel comfortable and are less likely to drop out.

What he does works, as illustrated by England internationals Kane and Harry Winks, who came through the ranks, and by Dele Alli and Dier who didn’t but made their Premier League debuts under Pochettino at 19 and 20 respectively and have matured into established England internationals.

In Barcelona last week, Tottenham started with three academy graduates, Kane, Winks and full back Kyle Walker-Peters, all sourced locally, from Tottenham territories. Four days later, against Burnley, it was Skipp, raised in Hertford, who supplied the lasting memory on a day when Eriksen struck late to keep Spurs in third. They are yet to draw in 17 games and Saturday’s result propelled Pochettino to a milestone of 100 Premier League victories in just 169 games.

Only Jose Mourinho and Sir Alex Ferguson have done that faster, although, as Arsenal fans will be quick to point out when the north London rivals meet in a Carabao Cup quarter-final on Wednesday, Arsene Wenger had already claimed the Double before he clocked up his first 100 wins.
 

kremlyn

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2004
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2,803
Daily mail shite. A vehicle for telling us stuff we already know but with their own slant. Real Madrid...blah....sherwood....mini messi...blah.

#Agenda
 

Flashspur

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2012
6,882
9,068
Well, with the news that Dier will be out till January recovering from surgery, plus our other mounting injuries, its possible we'll see some more youth players breakthrough this month. I guess Marsh, given he's traveled and played in pre-season fixtures, is most likely the next CM to get minutes.

Marsh has trained with the first team with Skipp, Eyoma and Parrott. I think Poch will give him a go at some point. My mate who watches our youth teams a bit rates Marsh more highly than Skipp.
 

LexingtonSpurs

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2013
13,456
39,042
Spurs draw PAOK FC in knockout stage of UEFA Youth League

ETA - this is a 1-match playoff - we will be at PAOK - the winner advances to the final 16

  • The eight teams from the Domestic Champions path have been drawn at home to the eight UEFA Champions League path group runners-up in one-off ties.
  • The eight play-off winners join the eight UEFA Champions League path group winners in the round of 16.
Already through to round of 16: Ajax (NED), Atlético Madrid (ESP), Barcelona (ESP, holders), Hoffenheim (GER), Liverpool (ENG), Manchester United (ENG), Porto (POR), Real Madrid (ESP)

Match will take place 19/20 February
 
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Blake Griffin

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2011
14,133
38,225
bryan-waugh, hackett and scarlett all started in england's u15 7-2 win against turkey today, scarlett scored one. forson also started and scored.
 

IGSpur

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Jan 11, 2013
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bryan-waugh, hackett and scarlett all started in england's u15 7-2 win against turkey today, scarlett scored one. forson also started and scored.

I think there might have been 2 games unless Hackett just couldn't keep track as he posted they won 6-1, while Scarlett said 7-2
 

IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2013
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13,758
It feels wrong to reply to such a long and insightful post without going into equal detail; I just want to preface this by saying that I really appreciate the knowledge you bring to this thread.

Do you really think it's fair to compare Skipp and Oakley-Boothe as if it's like with like? Whatever way you try to justify it, Skipp has played at least a year up his whole Spurs career. The very fact he's always played in the same teams as TOB is a huge testament in itself - in the case of any other player you'd be comparing (for example) TOB 2016-17 with Skipp 2017-18. It seems unfair to discount the age gap just because Skipp is a part of the same international age group. The fact we've chosen to consistently play him a year up is huge praise, and I don't recall many players who played so consistently above their age grade for us. Possibly just Carter-Vickers and Onomah?

It depends what you mean played up so consistently. Skipp played up a lot into TOBs year and TOB played up a lot more in the tear above and was still the best CM. Maghoma who is 8 months younger than Skipp played in TOBs age group probably as much as Skipp, so not really sure why there is so much emphasis in this instance esp considering the two players we're comparing both played up.

If you're talking about more than one year up, then as a first year he's done well to play in the PL2. I can't remember if TOB did as a first year but I just remember him one of the seasons not really playing games at all. I guess my point is. I'm aware he played up a lot, quote a few have but I don't think as a result it means he's more talented than TOB.
 

Blake Griffin

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Oct 3, 2011
14,133
38,225
It depends what you mean played up so consistently. Skipp played up a lot into TOBs year and TOB played up a lot more in the tear above and was still the best CM. Maghoma who is 8 months younger than Skipp played in TOBs age group probably as much as Skipp, so not really sure why there is so much emphasis in this instance esp considering the two players we're comparing both played up.

If you're talking about more than one year up, then as a first year he's done well to play in the PL2. I can't remember if TOB did as a first year but I just remember him one of the seasons not really playing games at all. I guess my point is. I'm aware he played up a lot, quote a few have but I don't think as a result it means he's more talented than TOB.

i don't recall either tob or maghoma playing up, sure they might have had the odd appearance towards the end for the u18s as an u16 but not full time from the start of the season like skipp has done. it doesn't mean that he's more talented but it does mean you can't compare the two directly, certainly not at a younger age where playing up a year group is a significant jump. look at england's u17 world cup winning squad for example, only 3 of the 21 in the squad were born after the aug 31st age divide, that can't just be a coincidence, it's entirely logical that the older players will for the most part be the best/most developed.
 

Luka Van der Bale

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Jan 29, 2011
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If someone was able to give a brief summary of the positions/ style of play of these (Spurs) England u15s it would be greatly appreciated. I see names like Hackett and Scarlett mentioned a lot, and obviously the Forson situation has been talked about plenty, yet I don't even know what positions they play in!
 

Luka Van der Bale

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Jan 29, 2011
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i don't recall either tob or maghoma playing up, sure they might have had the odd appearance towards the end for the u18s as an u16 but not full time from the start of the season like skipp has done. it doesn't mean that he's more talented but it does mean you can't compare the two directly, certainly not at a younger age where playing up a year group is a significant jump. look at england's u17 world cup winning squad for example, only 3 of the 21 in the squad were born after the aug 31st age divide, that can't just be a coincidence, it's entirely logical that the older players will be the best/most developed, for the most part.
Yeah this is what I meant. From the start of each season, Skipp always seemed to be a full-time member of the TOB/Kirby age group. As I recall it the others would play mainly in their own group with the occasional promotion. Skipp playing for the U16s in his U16 year was almost unheard of.
 

Blake Griffin

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2011
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38,225
If someone was able to give a brief summary of the positions/ style of play of these (Spurs) England u15s it would be greatly appreciated. I see names like Hackett and Scarlett mentioned a lot, and obviously the Forson situation has been talked about plenty, yet I don't even know what positions they play in!

ig and spurzinho will know more about them than i do but based on the little i've seen (roughly half a dozen 30-40 minute games):

bryan-waugh (cb) - not the biggest(he was playing up a year when i saw him so that's probably why) but looked quick, agile, aggressive and good on the ball. of all the spurs lads in this england squad he impressed me the most.

hackett (cb/lb) - tall, rangy left-footer, athletic and got up and down the pitch well when he played lb. i can't remember much more than that though tbh.

forson (rw/cm?) - most places seem to refer to him as a cm but the games i saw he was playing rw and #10. was difficult to gauge as he was a lot bigger and a lot quicker than the poor little czech kids he was destroying, looked to have a good left foot. if you've seen much of sheyi ojo then that's who he reminded me of but as i say it was only over a few short games so i could be way off.

scarlett (st) - looked like a classic #9, was relatively quiet in the games i saw though so again it's difficult to go into too much detail.

funnily enough the two players i liked the look of the most didn't make the squad. khalon haysman a ball-playing cm instantly caught my eye, just in the way he received and passed the ball you could tell he has a bit about him. the other was roshaun mathurin, a direct and tricky left winger, tidy dribbler and scored a few nice goals, not too dissimilar to jneil bennett. obviously it's early days yet but to have three(would have been four with forson) starting for england is a good sign that we have another strong group coming through.
 

IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2013
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i don't recall either tob or maghoma playing up, sure they might have had the odd appearance towards the end for the u18s as an u16 but not full time from the start of the season like skipp has done. it doesn't mean that he's more talented but it does mean you can't compare the two directly, certainly not at a younger age where playing up a year group is a significant jump. look at england's u17 world cup winning squad for example, only 3 of the 21 in the squad were born after the aug 31st age divide, that can't just be a coincidence, it's entirely logical that the older players will for the most part be the best/most developed.

It's a tricky and I guess pointless argument somewhat, I can see your gripe, I think you believe I'm downplaying or undermining Skipp, which isn't what I'm trying to do. But for the sake of the debate.

The relative age effect will have benefited Skipp as he will have had a full years development over his school year and a lot moreso than Maghoma for example. Around 75% of English intakes are born between Sept-Feb.

When it comes to international football, now it gets more complicated, and I'm annoyed I can't find the graph but iirc I believe most international youth sides for England were made up of those born early in the year and then those born early in a school year as they will have physical advantage over their competition. So Jan/Feb/March/Sept and October I believe are the main representations. Those born in December or Summer are at a disadvantage.

It's probably not fair to say that is hard compare, so I guess It'd be better to compare Skipp to those in a similar situation like Veljkovic, Sterling, Edwards, CCV and C.Maghoma. They are all born at the end of the year, Edwards was particularly impressive as he was so late in December and so small, whereas the others are all fairly big and well-built. There are a lot more examples of kids being born late in the year playing up a club age group than the other way round because they will be a lot more used to playing international tournaments with them. Which is why I highlighted P.Maghoma playing with the 00s regularly in international tournaments or TOB/KIrby playing and being the best at 99 age groups or even Onomah. I don't even know if that makes sense.
 
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