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The Spurs Youth Thread - 2018/19

Clark28

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2016
2,269
13,040
You would think with so few players out on loan that we might be doing rather better at U23 level.
We could drop Alli, Sanchez, Foyth, KWP, and Skippy down, they're all still 22 or younger:LOL:
Davinson would murder the strikers in that league.
 

Tottenhamboy85

Well-Known Member
Aug 16, 2018
2,501
7,877
You would’ve thought with 10 days break, Wanyama could’ve dropped down to get some much needed game time last night
 
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edson

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2005
3,945
12,117
You would’ve thought with 10 days of Wanyama could’ve dropped down to get some much needed game time last night
It would have been a good idea Marsh could have done with the help,I will be very surprised if Wanyama is with us next year he reminds me of Sandro after he had his knee done and that he could not get back to the player he was before and QPR never got to see the player we all loved at Spurs before he had his knee done.
 

spursfan77

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2005
46,680
104,956
There was a sky sports debate interview,I think with either john Terry or Patrick Kluivert talking about youth football. It was a very interesting perspective in saying (I paraphrase)
"Youth players need to show they are better than first team players, not just equal to, if they want to get chances and they need to do it consistently in training and in loans and when they get 5 mins at the end of a dead rubber game, many academy players think they deserve a chance just by chugging along and doing what they should be doing but in the top teams you need to show an extra level to knock the first team player out of the team. You need to make it so everyone knows who you are and what you're capable of. Youth Players these days are given too much praise and they believe it before they've even done anything."

Specific reference was made to RLC at Chelsea which is why I suspect it was Terry but it was interesting hearing that from a player that came through their academy.

Completely agree with that and the same thing has been said on SC many times over the last 5/6 years.
 

Spurzinho

Well-Known Member
Jan 24, 2016
2,513
8,342
Wonder if that’s a sweetener for the young RB at Norwich we’ve been linked with. Seem to have a good relationship with them.

Nah, its a regular journey for cast-offs, is that one. There's nothing wrong with Max, just as there was nothing wrong with Ryan Loft or Aramide Oteh, they were just more one dimensional than you need to be able to play here. Our academy tries, quite explicitly, to produce No. 8's (i.e - all round central midfielders) and then over the course of their development develop the other areas of their game until they begin to specialise in a particular position. Its very strange to see players like Max make it as far as a scholarship because he doesn't have that core no. 8 skill set.
 

IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2013
7,939
13,758
There was a sky sports debate interview,I think with either john Terry or Patrick Kluivert talking about youth football. It was a very interesting perspective in saying (I paraphrase)
"Youth players need to show they are better than first team players, not just equal to, if they want to get chances and they need to do it consistently in training and in loans and when they get 5 mins at the end of a dead rubber game, many academy players think they deserve a chance just by chugging along and doing what they should be doing but in the top teams you need to show an extra level to knock the first team player out of the team. You need to make it so everyone knows who you are and what you're capable of. Youth Players these days are given too much praise and they believe it before they've even done anything."

Specific reference was made to RLC at Chelsea which is why I suspect it was Terry but it was interesting hearing that from a player that came through their academy.

I don't know how anyone can say that. It doesn't make any sense. I would be surprised if Kluivert said it and not surprised if Terry said it.

Let's take the most obvious example. Let's look at Sane at City. He was a highly rated youngster top quality, who would have been given opportunity by his club in German to play. AS he played he got better and better, so much better than when he initially got that opportunity. A few years or whatever later, he is bought by City for massive money, and then under Guardiola continues to improve. So since he was first given that opportunity his development graph has been on an upward trajectory and everyone would agree that the Sane now is a lot better than the Sane who hadn't even made his debut.

Now for the obvious example. We know Sancho is more than good enough for top quality football. But what they're saying is, and he hadn't, that Sancho before he even made his debut had to be as good or better than Sane is now, and not the same level as Sane before he made his debut. Everyone would go, our youngsters aren't as good as Germany's or Germany do it better, well Sancho is probably a better player than Sane was when he made his debut, but imagine expecting that Sancho before any senior football, and no way to even show it on the field, to be better than Sane is now after all of those games he's had as experience. THEN times the Sane situation by 4 or 5 I don't remember how many attackers City had before he left, and we're basically saying if Sancho didn't come through at City it would have been his own fault, because apparently it was hard work he lacked and nothing to do with opportunity? RIght.

Now Sancho is held up as some model of hard work and graft, just because he has been given opportunity but when he was playing academy football no one would have said a thing. His work rate and graft isn't significantly greater than any of the other attacking players in English football, but due to people believing it is hard work these youngsters are lacking, despite not knowing the kid or even having seen him play before Dortmund, due to confirmation bias they're confident he is where he is due to an outstanding amount of hard work and graft.

The reason we struggle to bring any kids through si due to this outdated mindset. When Bayern wanted to spend 40m on Hudson-Odoi do you think they would have done that if he 'wasn't working hard'. But now transfer window is gone, Chelsea have no incentive to play him again, and he is back on the bench, but according to I assume Terry's logic it is because he is believes he deserves a chance just because he is entitled. Again when Sancho was left, City fans called him entitled, everyone else called him brave. But when Edwards or CHO are looking to move or stalling on contracts,their own fans berate them with the classic its 'what's he done to deserve a chance, he's billy big bollocks'
 

alexis

Well-Known Member
Sep 1, 2012
1,820
3,374
I don't know how anyone can say that. It doesn't make any sense. I would be surprised if Kluivert said it and not surprised if Terry said it.

Let's take the most obvious example. Let's look at Sane at City. He was a highly rated youngster top quality, who would have been given opportunity by his club in German to play. AS he played he got better and better, so much better than when he initially got that opportunity. A few years or whatever later, he is bought by City for massive money, and then under Guardiola continues to improve. So since he was first given that opportunity his development graph has been on an upward trajectory and everyone would agree that the Sane now is a lot better than the Sane who hadn't even made his debut.

Now for the obvious example. We know Sancho is more than good enough for top quality football. But what they're saying is, and he hadn't, that Sancho before he even made his debut had to be as good or better than Sane is now, and not the same level as Sane before he made his debut. Everyone would go, our youngsters aren't as good as Germany's or Germany do it better, well Sancho is probably a better player than Sane was when he made his debut, but imagine expecting that Sancho before any senior football, and no way to even show it on the field, to be better than Sane is now after all of those games he's had as experience. THEN times the Sane situation by 4 or 5 I don't remember how many attackers City had before he left, and we're basically saying if Sancho didn't come through at City it would have been his own fault, because apparently it was hard work he lacked and nothing to do with opportunity? RIght.

Now Sancho is held up as some model of hard work and graft, just because he has been given opportunity but when he was playing academy football no one would have said a thing. His work rate and graft isn't significantly greater than any of the other attacking players in English football, but due to people believing it is hard work these youngsters are lacking, despite not knowing the kid or even having seen him play before Dortmund, due to confirmation bias they're confident he is where he is due to an outstanding amount of hard work and graft.

The reason we struggle to bring any kids through si due to this outdated mindset. When Bayern wanted to spend 40m on Hudson-Odoi do you think they would have done that if he 'wasn't working hard'. But now transfer window is gone, Chelsea have no incentive to play him again, and he is back on the bench, but according to I assume Terry's logic it is because he is believes he deserves a chance just because he is entitled. Again when Sancho was left, City fans called him entitled, everyone else called him brave. But when Edwards or CHO are looking to move or stalling on contracts,their own fans berate them with the classic its 'what's he done to deserve a chance, he's billy big bollocks'
Thought it was RLC he referenced
 

IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2013
7,939
13,758
Thought it was RLC he referenced

I thought the general point in the post was regarding youth players in general, rather than specific to RLC. As otherwise it's not really relevant here. Either way, my point is I don't know how it's expected for an academy player to prove they are better than signings without having anywhere near the same level of experience or opportunity
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,326
13,915
I don't know how anyone can say that. It doesn't make any sense. I would be surprised if Kluivert said it and not surprised if Terry said it.

Let's take the most obvious example. Let's look at Sane at City. He was a highly rated youngster top quality, who would have been given opportunity by his club in German to play. AS he played he got better and better, so much better than when he initially got that opportunity. A few years or whatever later, he is bought by City for massive money, and then under Guardiola continues to improve. So since he was first given that opportunity his development graph has been on an upward trajectory and everyone would agree that the Sane now is a lot better than the Sane who hadn't even made his debut.

Now for the obvious example. We know Sancho is more than good enough for top quality football. But what they're saying is, and he hadn't, that Sancho before he even made his debut had to be as good or better than Sane is now, and not the same level as Sane before he made his debut. Everyone would go, our youngsters aren't as good as Germany's or Germany do it better, well Sancho is probably a better player than Sane was when he made his debut, but imagine expecting that Sancho before any senior football, and no way to even show it on the field, to be better than Sane is now after all of those games he's had as experience. THEN times the Sane situation by 4 or 5 I don't remember how many attackers City had before he left, and we're basically saying if Sancho didn't come through at City it would have been his own fault, because apparently it was hard work he lacked and nothing to do with opportunity? RIght.

Now Sancho is held up as some model of hard work and graft, just because he has been given opportunity but when he was playing academy football no one would have said a thing. His work rate and graft isn't significantly greater than any of the other attacking players in English football, but due to people believing it is hard work these youngsters are lacking, despite not knowing the kid or even having seen him play before Dortmund, due to confirmation bias they're confident he is where he is due to an outstanding amount of hard work and graft.

The reason we struggle to bring any kids through si due to this outdated mindset. When Bayern wanted to spend 40m on Hudson-Odoi do you think they would have done that if he 'wasn't working hard'. But now transfer window is gone, Chelsea have no incentive to play him again, and he is back on the bench, but according to I assume Terry's logic it is because he is believes he deserves a chance just because he is entitled. Again when Sancho was left, City fans called him entitled, everyone else called him brave. But when Edwards or CHO are looking to move or stalling on contracts,their own fans berate them with the classic its 'what's he done to deserve a chance, he's billy big bollocks'

I just posted it because I found it interesting not because I endorsed it. I can't find the bloody video now because that would have been better.

The point I understood from him (and I do think it was Terry) is that youth academies are not conveyor belts, they are places where players will compete against each other. There should not be the assumption by fans and players that there is a "natural progression" from youth to first team football. It is all earnt by showing yourself better than your competition. Just because you're in a youth team doesn't mean you'll be the next in line for a chance.

I think there is a lot of truth in that mentality of and saying to the youngsters " hey son, you're in the U23s? Great! Well done. But you're not going to get a chance just because you got here. Now the real competition and hard work starts! So get your head down and start searching for another level"
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,326
13,915
I thought the general point in the post was regarding youth players in general, rather than specific to RLC. As otherwise it's not really relevant here. Either way, my point is I don't know how it's expected for an academy player to prove they are better than signings without having anywhere near the same level of experience or opportunity

Come on IG, you can have all the experience in the world but still not be or do what the manager needs. If Parrott started tearing it up in training with the seniors and coming off better do you really think Poch would think twice about integrating him as a back up next season? Same for any player in our squad.

I really appreciate your knowledge and those of others and I agree there must be a better way to blood youth prospects but the conversation in here does sometimes come across very conspiratorial, as if Poch has deliberately hamstrung our youth academy.
 
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IGSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2013
7,939
13,758
I just posted it because I found it interesting not because I endorsed it. I can't find the bloody video now because that would have been better.

The point I understood from him (and I do think it was Terry) is that youth academies are not conveyor belts, they are places where players will compete against each other. There should not be the assumption by fans and players that there is a "natural progression" from youth to first team football. It is all earnt by showing yourself better than your competition. Just because you're in a youth team doesn't mean you'll be the next in line for a chance.

I think there is a lot of truth in that mentality of and saying to the youngsters " hey son, you're in the U23s? Great! Well done. But you're not going to get a chance just because you got here. Now the real competition and hard work starts! So get your head down and start searching for another level"

See I don't disagree with any of that. Nothing should be handed to anyone, it shouldn't just be a conveyor belt where if you're in the u23s you should go into the 1st team, but you or Terry is making the assumption that that is what the kids are thinking. I'm sure there are some cocky, arrogant or lazy so and sos in academies and ultimately they shouldn't be anywhere near the first team and need to appreciate the talent and opportunity they have, but what I am understanding from your point is that the reason there is such lack of players come through is you believe the majority are like that and I can't subscribe to that.

That assumes British players are inherently lazier than German, Spanish, Italian, French, Dutch heck every other nation basically. You're assuming that coaches, managers and scouts after all their due diligence and knowledge of players are still paying a lot of money to, and keeping on players that are lazy and entitled, which is would be really stupid of them, and I don't think any of them are stupid, as when you look at the results of English academies in club and international football I can conclude the coaches know what they are doing, and these kids are out working and out performing their contemporaries. I think people look for ways to protect their clubs and excuse their own clubs mistakes but blaming players they have no real attachment too, rather than blaming the club and/or the managers. I think it's just a defense mechanism in humans. We all do it, if we make a heavy purchase which is terrible we will convince ourselves that it was still a good idea, rather than admitting we made a mistake or have done wrong. We can point all the fingers we want but the dearth in talent coming through can not be blamed on entitlement. In my opinion managers should be doing more to give young people chance and lower the bar of expectation rather than raise it. Everyone wants to look at how other countries do it, do people believe that a Bundesliga club expects their academy player to be better than an international before they give them a chance? Of course not. It's the managers that are the problem in this country, who are influenced and under pressure due to the vast sums of money available. IMO

Come on IG, you can have all the experience in the world but still not be or do what the manager needs. If Parrott started tearing it up in training with the seniors and coming off better do you really think Poch would think twice about integrating him as a back up next season? Same for any player in our squad.

Agree. I've said quite a few times, that there are certain players that are good enough but I don't expect them to get a chance as the players ahead of them are that much better. Regarding the 2nd sentence I don't see them in training. But what is tearing it up in training? Accoridng to the logic of some posters and Poch, Parrott would have to be performing better than Llorente or Kane in training for him to deserve a chance. I can't envisage any scenario where that would happen. There is a lot of nuance to that question anyway. I've said before we know Kane is the best trainer in the squad by all accounts. Poch joined in the 2014 and saw Kane train all summer, but Kane didn't get a chance until after bagging in the EL AND our expensive strikers flopping. Do you think Kane was outperforming them in training? if he was why did he take so long for him to get his PL chance? Do you believe if Kane didn't have EL football where he was on fire, he still would have got that chance? I don't, seeing as he only got his chance after all that. So I don't think 'tearing it up in training' guarantees anything. By all accounts KWP has been an excellent trainer, how's that going for him. We had reports once that Onomah appeared to be outperforming the others in training how did that work out for him. I won't lean on this but there was also random ITK about Edwards looking quality in training according to Lamela, how did that work out for him?

Then we get onto what type of player they are anyway, so if a mercurial winger was constantly destroying our defenders but not tracking back, then I don't think Poch would use them as he would see them as a risk. But I wouldn't expect an attacking players strength to be his defensive side, so there's no guarantee tearing it up in training would lead to any opportunity.

but the conversation in here does sometimes come across very conspiratorial, as if Poch has deliberately hamstrung our youth academy.

I saw basically the exact same comment on the Shedend about Sarri and Hudson-Odoi from a Chelsea fan. Along the lines of 'why would Sarri purposefully make his team worse, you all sounds stupid'. So anyone who wants Hudson-Odoi it would be the same chat if he was coming through here. Bayern are spending 40m on a player they would obviously want to use, and Chelsea have no intention to use him, why is that, conspiracy against their own academy? Of course not it's an irrational argument to make, it's just they, like other PL clubs are so under pressure for results, they are afraid to take risks.
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,326
13,915
1) See I don't disagree with any of that. Nothing should be handed to anyone, it shouldn't just be a conveyor belt where if you're in the u23s you should go into the 1st team, but you or Terry is making the assumption that that is what the kids are thinking. I'm sure there are some cocky, arrogant or lazy so and sos in academies and ultimately they shouldn't be anywhere near the first team and need to appreciate the talent and opportunity they have, but what I am understanding from your point is that the reason there is such lack of players come through is you believe the majority are like that and I can't subscribe to that.

2)That assumes British players are inherently lazier than German, Spanish, Italian, French, Dutch heck every other nation basically. You're assuming that coaches, managers and scouts after all their due diligence and knowledge of players are still paying a lot of money to, and keeping on players that are lazy and entitled, which is would be really stupid of them, and I don't think any of them are stupid, as when you look at the results of English academies in club and international football I can conclude the coaches know what they are doing, and these kids are out working and out performing their contemporaries. I think people look for ways to protect their clubs and excuse their own clubs mistakes but blaming players they have no real attachment too, rather than blaming the club and/or the managers. I think it's just a defense mechanism in humans. We all do it, if we make a heavy purchase which is terrible we will convince ourselves that it was still a good idea, rather than admitting we made a mistake or have done wrong. We can point all the fingers we want but the dearth in talent coming through can not be blamed on entitlement. In my opinion managers should be doing more to give young people chance and lower the bar of expectation rather than raise it. Everyone wants to look at how other countries do it, do people believe that a Bundesliga club expects their academy player to be better than an international before they give them a chance? Of course not. It's the managers that are the problem in this country, who are influenced and under pressure due to the vast sums of money available. IMO



3)Agree. I've said quite a few times, that there are certain players that are good enough but I don't expect them to get a chance as the players ahead of them are that much better. Regarding the 2nd sentence I don't see them in training. But what is tearing it up in training? Accoridng to the logic of some posters and Poch, Parrott would have to be performing better than Llorente or Kane in training for him to deserve a chance. I can't envisage any scenario where that would happen. There is a lot of nuance to that question anyway. I've said before we know Kane is the best trainer in the squad by all accounts. Poch joined in the 2014 and saw Kane train all summer, but Kane didn't get a chance until after bagging in the EL AND our expensive strikers flopping. Do you think Kane was outperforming them in training? if he was why did he take so long for him to get his PL chance? Do you believe if Kane didn't have EL football where he was on fire, he still would have got that chance? I don't, seeing as he only got his chance after all that. So I don't think 'tearing it up in training' guarantees anything. By all accounts KWP has been an excellent trainer, how's that going for him. We had reports once that Onomah appeared to be outperforming the others in training how did that work out for him. I won't lean on this but there was also random ITK about Edwards looking quality in training according to Lamela, how did that work out for him?

Then we get onto what type of player they are anyway, so if a mercurial winger was constantly destroying our defenders but not tracking back, then I don't think Poch would use them as he would see them as a risk. But I wouldn't expect an attacking players strength to be his defensive side, so there's no guarantee tearing it up in training would lead to any opportunity.



4) I saw basically the exact same comment on the Shedend about Sarri and Hudson-Odoi from a Chelsea fan. Along the lines of 'why would Sarri purposefully make his team worse, you all sounds stupid'. So anyone who wants Hudson-Odoi it would be the same chat if he was coming through here. Bayern are spending 40m on a player they would obviously want to use, and Chelsea have no intention to use him, why is that, conspiracy against their own academy? Of course not it's an irrational argument to make, it's just they, like other PL clubs are so under pressure for results, they are afraid to take risks.

There's a lot to unpack there so I'll do my best.

1) just for clarity the views I was representing were Terry's not my own. Now it may be that he's seen something in the academy system that we haven't and it may be that he's comparing the old "clean my boots" philosophy with the idea of academy players driving around in flash cars and buying mansions before even being first team regulars. Yes, most will be hard working I'm sure but having experience of a top level academy (albeit a good 20 years ago) there is definitely a sense of entitlement amongst some players. Some do think it's a given that they will make it and rely on natural talent rather than really believing they have to buckle down and use every moment to stay focused. The irony is one of our coaches who I won't name was at a top academy and had the same mentality about natural talent and didn't buckle down when he needed to and ended up with a lower league career when he could have had so much more.



2) I don't believe English players are lazy by comparison but they are the highest paid.i think the money goes to their heads far too quickly and they lose perspective very quickly. You talk about managers in this league having the wrong approach but almost all the managers you talk about have come from foreign leagues where they having better youth systems (not players, systems). I'm not prepared to blame a manager for doing what he's supposed to be doing. I do however, blame the system within which he operates. You can look to the loan system, the U23s league, the high stakes involved in first team football and ask where is the incentive to play youth players? There isn't. These clubs abroad, the Bayern's, Reals, Barca even Valencia and Atletico Madrid produce so many academy players that go on to have successful football careers and what's more is they all have B teams that play in in senior football. In fact, Real sell a lot of talent with buy back provisions where they can bring them back after 2 years of senior football if they do well. I don't propose we do this but they can afford to do this because the players are brainwashed in the club's ways and philosophy so that it becomes a dream of the player to play for them. However, the football purists would never allow B teams and they would never allow changes to the loan system where you could loan 4 or 5 players to one affiliated club with similar style of play, there's far too much that is precious about the English league structure. For me, it's not the managers that are at fault, most of the time, I believe it's the system which they operate in.

3) so what do I mean by tearing it up? It's simply showing himself to be a highly competitive member of the squad, doing things that other players don't do. You can tell me that Parrott isn't going to show himself to be better than Kane but he may show some attribute that Llorente doesn't have. Football is about using what you have to be effective. If Parrott does that then yes he'd get a chance. Let's not forget it's not just ability, it's also form. Kane got a chance in the EL to show his ability because our seniors weren't doing what the manager asked or wanted, Kane did and did it better, now he's here. But it all has to start in training. So for KWP, Onomah and Edwards there are reasons why they are not there yet. Otherwise what would be the reason for Skipp, TOB and Marsh to get ahead. KWP I think needs to improve his physicality, he's like a very young Marcelo who was getting pushed around in the early days. When he finally filled out he became one of the world's best left backs.

4) I didn't say there was a conspiracy I said some people talk as if there is one. Which of course there isn't. But I do come back to this point, Bayern have a B team that play in the senior League and their players get that exposure much more than players in the English league.
 

agrdavidsfan

Ledley's Knee!
Aug 25, 2005
10,918
13,352
Well interesting today a coach I know at Swansea for years has been saying how impressive dan James & Liam Cullen are at Swansea. So seeing Dan JAMES explode onto the scene more recently has had me thinking with our relationship with Swansea.

But he is still adamant at that age group the best two he has seen close up are Shashoua & Roles & Skipp as well as Jacob Brun Larsen who’s at Dortmund.

Out of the 3 with us only skipp has ever had a look in.

Could it be beneficial for us to send the likes of roles,Edwards,KWP etc on permanent buy back transfers to Swansea on the cheap?

As the development with us at the moment doesn’t seem to be working.
 
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