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The Spurs Youth Thread - 2018/19

IGSpur

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Jan 11, 2013
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There's a lot to unpack there so I'll do my best.

1) just for clarity the views I was representing were Terry's not my own. Now it may be that he's seen something in the academy system that we haven't and it may be that he's comparing the old "clean my boots" philosophy with the idea of academy players driving around in flash cars and buying mansions before even being first team regulars. Yes, most will be hard working I'm sure but having experience of a top level academy (albeit a good 20 years ago) there is definitely a sense of entitlement amongst some players. Some do think it's a given that they will make it and rely on natural talent rather than really believing they have to buckle down and use every moment to stay focused. The irony is one of our coaches who I won't name was at a top academy and had the same mentality about natural talent and didn't buckle down when he needed to and ended up with a lower league career when he could have had so much more.



2) I don't believe English players are lazy by comparison but they are the highest paid.i think the money goes to their heads far too quickly and they lose perspective very quickly. You talk about managers in this league having the wrong approach but almost all the managers you talk about have come from foreign leagues where they having better youth systems (not players, systems). I'm not prepared to blame a manager for doing what he's supposed to be doing. I do however, blame the system within which he operates. You can look to the loan system, the U23s league, the high stakes involved in first team football and ask where is the incentive to play youth players? There isn't. These clubs abroad, the Bayern's, Reals, Barca even Valencia and Atletico Madrid produce so many academy players that go on to have successful football careers and what's more is they all have B teams that play in in senior football. In fact, Real sell a lot of talent with buy back provisions where they can bring them back after 2 years of senior football if they do well. I don't propose we do this but they can afford to do this because the players are brainwashed in the club's ways and philosophy so that it becomes a dream of the player to play for them. However, the football purists would never allow B teams and they would never allow changes to the loan system where you could loan 4 or 5 players to one affiliated club with similar style of play, there's far too much that is precious about the English league structure. For me, it's not the managers that are at fault, most of the time, I believe it's the system which they operate in.

3) so what do I mean by tearing it up? It's simply showing himself to be a highly competitive member of the squad, doing things that other players don't do. You can tell me that Parrott isn't going to show himself to be better than Kane but he may show some attribute that Llorente doesn't have. Football is about using what you have to be effective. If Parrott does that then yes he'd get a chance. Let's not forget it's not just ability, it's also form. Kane got a chance in the EL to show his ability because our seniors weren't doing what the manager asked or wanted, Kane did and did it better, now he's here. But it all has to start in training. So for KWP, Onomah and Edwards there are reasons why they are not there yet. Otherwise what would be the reason for Skipp, TOB and Marsh to get ahead. KWP I think needs to improve his physicality, he's like a very young Marcelo who was getting pushed around in the early days. When he finally filled out he became one of the world's best left backs.

4) I didn't say there was a conspiracy I said some people talk as if there is one. Which of course there isn't. But I do come back to this point, Bayern have a B team that play in the senior League and their players get that exposure much more than players in the English league.

With your first two points there is a lot I agree with and some I disagree, due to my stance on the subject but it's not worth dragging out because it's all opinion at the end of the day.

Re: point 3, I know it's a sore point, and I know ti causes controversy, and I get the well it didn't happen that way so how would you know. BUT all my point is that Kane had the EL to prove himself, something the current crop do not have. It was having the opportunity (which is what I always blab on about)in the first team that allowed Kane to prove himself to continue getting chances. It wasn't him out performing people in training, which is why I don't really buy the do it in training argument. If Kane was in the academy now, training as hard as he does not, like in the preseason of 2014 he would not be starting ahead of Llorente or Son in the PL or the CL. Similarly if we didn't qualify for the CL or EL, I do not think Kane, would have been given opportunity ahead of the experienced under performing strikers as there would have been no pressure to play him, as there would be no evidence to support his case that eh could do better. It goes back to if he was training so well during that preseason why was he not starting or being used more in the PL until he bagged all those goals. Opportunity was key not how well he trained. And I don't believe great performance in training in this country leads to opportunity unfortunately. Fortunate circumstances do.

I see your point about Bayern but I don't think they would pay 40m for a B team player. Like Sancho had to go into the u19s initially there will be an acclimatisation phase, but he would have been bought for their first team. Despite this, he'd be lucky to see daylight at Chelsea again. And the blame will be placed squarely at his door for not working hard enough.
 

IGSpur

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Jan 11, 2013
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Well interesting today a coach I know at Swansea for years has been saying how impressive dan James & Liam Cullen are at Swansea. So seeing Dan JAMES explode onto the scene more recently has had me thinking with our relationship with Swansea.

But he is still adamant at that age group the best two he has seen close up are Shashoua & Roles & Skipp as well as Jacob Brun Larsen who’s at Dortmund.

Out of the 3 with us only skipp has ever had a look in.

Could it be beneficial for us to send the likes of roles,Edwards,KWP etc on permanent buy back transfers to Swansea on the cheap?

As the development with us at the moment doesn’t seem to be working.

Whatever we do keeping them at u23s isn't helping. Tanganga and Eyoma were main CBs for their age group since u15s/u16s. Between them they played 10mins of professional football. Ben Wilmott comes through at Stevenage gets games, and a move to a PL club. Others get loaned out like Trevoh Chalobah and are getting all this experience. Then we wonder why ours don't develop and are getting made to look foolish by Arsenal, and then comes the claim, maybe they were never that good, and were just overhyped.

Your mate says those 3 are the best he's seen close up, I'm sure he's been involved in coaching for a while too so he's seen a lot. Were it not for Shashoua organising his own loan, allegedly, only one of them would have any professional minutes approaching 19/20. Carroll was probably on his 2nd loan. Fortunately Pritchard who was a fairly lateish developer relative to that age group had his first full season loan when he was 20 so there is time, but it just goes to show how badly we're handling these guys. Most of our kids would be out playing football.

Heck a former Chelsea and Spurs coach said TOB (and Kirby) were the best kids he'd ever coached and look how he's regressed under this development plan.

Also that's why I find it strange when people say this group has no standouts or special players, because they're not eye grabbing or struggling at u23s football. Separate coaches have identified our players as the best they have seen (think about that) and to the majority of fans and looking at them now people think they are nothing special. I've watched this age group from whatever age and I've never been so excited about a generation of footballers, and while they are young it's sad to see what has happened. With no real prospect of actual purposeful development until next summer now, feels like such a waste. At least if they were on loan, and we had no intention of using them we could make money out of them but they just have no value at the moment in the u23s, in fact they look even worse when they come up against guys who are getting first team experience one way or another.
 

@Bobby__Lucky

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Aug 20, 2013
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I agree in part.

It's a problem in England for the reasons you raise but then you look at big clubs abroad that also have the ability to burn 30million on a bench warmer like Real or Barca, Bayern. They are producing youth players at exceptional rates so much so that the league is flooded with former graduates. But in those countries the youth players are paid far less, even at Real. And are treated much more like youth players rather than potential superstars in the making. The mentality of the youth players is much more "I need to work my nuts off to even be visible". I've never heard of a youth player leave Real or Barca because he thought he was good enough for the first team and not getting chances. Obviously we're talking possibly the two top teams in the world but the difference in mentality is still relevant.

Fabregas was one you didn't think of.
 

Sophos151

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Jul 31, 2016
792
2,559
I wonder if it would be beneficial for us to set up a relationship with a League 1/2 club, similar to the one we had with Swindon a few years ago. We sent a lot of players there - Luongo, Pritchard, Mason, Bryne, Hall - all of whom have established themselves as Championship players or better.

I do understand Pochettino's worries about the loan system - players learning bad habits by playing long-ball football and receiving substandard coaching. There's also the worry that shipping teenagers off across the country might not be good for them mentally - a lot of players have talked about this.

But with a proper relationship with another club, that could all be avoided. You'd need to choose the club carefully, making sure that they play the right style of football, of course. Staff could be sent there on a temporary basis to work with the players out on loan there, making sure their development is being handled right and that they have support systems in place.

Off the top of my head, Colchester could be a good choice. Not too far from London, play some decent football, and they tend to pick up ex-Spurs players fairly often anyway.
 

spurs9

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Aug 31, 2012
11,840
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Well interesting today a coach I know at Swansea for years has been saying how impressive dan James & Liam Cullen are at Swansea. So seeing Dan JAMES explode onto the scene more recently has had me thinking with our relationship with Swansea.

But he is still adamant at that age group the best two he has seen close up are Shashoua & Roles & Skipp as well as Jacob Brun Larsen who’s at Dortmund.

Out of the 3 with us only skipp has ever had a look in.

Could it be beneficial for us to send the likes of roles,Edwards,KWP etc on permanent buy back transfers to Swansea on the cheap?

As the development with us at the moment doesn’t seem to be working.
Sam or Armando Shashoua?
 

spurs9

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Aug 31, 2012
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Heck a former Chelsea and Spurs coach said TOB (and Kirby) were the best kids he'd ever coached and look how he's regressed under this development plan.
Yet Kirby, who left us at 16, has also regressed and Skipp, who also played in the same team/level has kicked on, so maybe it isn't solely the clubs fault?
 

guru

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2018
233
413
Well interesting today a coach I know at Swansea for years has been saying how impressive dan James & Liam Cullen are at Swansea. So seeing Dan JAMES explode onto the scene more recently has had me thinking with our relationship with Swansea.

But he is still adamant at that age group the best two he has seen close up are Shashoua & Roles & Skipp as well as Jacob Brun Larsen who’s at Dortmund.

Out of the 3 with us only skipp has ever had a look in.

Could it be beneficial for us to send the likes of roles,Edwards,KWP etc on permanent buy back transfers to Swansea on the cheap?

As the development with us at the moment doesn’t seem to be working.
Completely agree with you on Roles and shaushoa , they are the 2 that have caught my eye for a very very long time . Both intelligent players. Both can change and effect a game , both have an eye for goal .but neither of them have had the exposure and chance that they deserve . I believe shaushoa once had a bench spot for the first team , but nothing since then . Both are very attack minded and perhaps that is the problem as everyone who seems to be given a chance has absoloutley no attacking instics eg skipp , Bowden , Oakley booth , marsh just to name a few . Parrott is still young and I feel if they continue trying to push him when he is not ready , they will ruin him. But he does seem to be the only attacker they are interested in . If we loose both shaushoa and Roles i think it will be a great shame
 

spurs9

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Aug 31, 2012
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Completely agree with you on Roles and shaushoa , they are the 2 that have caught my eye for a very very long time . Both intelligent players. Both can change and effect a game , both have an eye for goal .but neither of them have had the exposure and chance that they deserve . I believe shaushoa once had a bench spot for the first team , but nothing since then . Both are very attack minded and perhaps that is the problem as everyone who seems to be given a chance has absoloutley no attacking instics eg skipp , Bowden , Oakley booth , marsh just to name a few . Parrott is still young and I feel if they continue trying to push him when he is not ready , they will ruin him. But he does seem to be the only attacker they are interested in . If we loose both shaushoa and Roles i think it will be a great shame
I think Shahsoua's size is against him for the 1st team, but I cant understand why Roles hasn't been given anything resembling a chance.

What makes you think Parrott is being pushed beyond what he is ready for? He has only 5 starts for the U23s.
 

guru

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2018
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413
I think Shahsoua's size is against him for the 1st team, but I cant understand why Roles hasn't been given anything resembling a chance.

What makes you think Parrott is being pushed beyond what he is ready for? He has only 5 starts for the U23s.
From what I have heard he’s been training with the first team , and has travelled possibly as the 19th man on some occasions . Then they try him with the U23s but every time I saw him play he really struggled to get into the game and make much of an impact . Physically he looks ready . But he is quite young and for him to succeed I don’t think he should be rushed . He looks like he could be a very good player . He will probably be integrated into first team next season as they have done with skipp this season , and tried to do with Oakley booth last season , but look how that seems to have turned out for Oakley booth . Hopefully he doesn’t go into pochetinos world of just training first team , with no game time , as I think he needs to play games to help him develop better.
 

Anuth

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Aug 10, 2008
745
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FourFourTwo & YouthHawk are releasing "Top 50 most exciting teenagers in English football"

Troy Parrott is #37

Calls from some quarters for the Dublin-born forward to lead Tottenham’s line in the absence of Harry Kane were highly optimistic, but they showed the esteem in which Parrott is held at Hotspur Way.
He only turned 17 in February but has hit the ground running since moving to London from Belvedere last season, and has already made an impact at under-23 level too.

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/50-most-exciting-teenagers-english-football
 

IGSpur

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Jan 11, 2013
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Yet Kirby, who left us at 16, has also regressed and Skipp, who also played in the same team/level has kicked on, so maybe it isn't solely the clubs fault?

As I've said many times, the issue is with all PL clubs. None other than Southampton, though since their academy declined so has their development, are very good at bringing youngsters through. I have said this repeatedly. It is all the clubs and all the managers have this problem but I focus on Spurs as it is my club and I know more about us. It's just an easier pill to swallow when we talk about the PL being bad at bringing youngsters through than when it's our own club.

The reason the Top 6 is even more of an issue is because they have around 5 players per year group who have the talent to play PL football and would likely be the best player in lesser academies but never see the light of day.

Palace are no better at developing players than us, but they have the excuse of at least having less options available. Again ironically the one player they've brought through since Zaha/Bolasie time is AWB who everyone is obsessing over and again he is a player that only got a chance due to injuries. He was nowhere near the England setup beforehand. As I said above its fortune and not opportunity and now everyone wants to buy him, while our RB who gets a chance out of fortune gets his MOTM and isn't seen again, who was also the person responsbile for keeping AWB out of the England setup.

Kirby initially left us to go to Chelsea. If that had gone according to plan he would have at least been playing in the Championship or the Eredivise. He should have moved to the EFL. As usual like with us my optimism was misplaced but I concede that I thought that going to a lesser PL club and being their best player during the whole England dominating summer, he would start to get chances. But that's not happened.

The one to potentially give a better indication is Madueke, who left at the same time as Kirby but has gone abroad. He left looking for opportunity he knew he wouldn't get in the PL.
 

Bofrok

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2011
367
729
A quick copy and paste for those able to watch tomorrow:

PAOK U19 v Tottenham Hotspur U19
UEFA Youth League Second Round
17:00
BT Sport ESPN

Apologies if already posted.
 

rambu

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Aug 31, 2012
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Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
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I might be in the minority but i think I would take him back in a heartbeat. Continuing his progression under Pochettino would turn him into a very good player.
 

Westmorlandspur

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Feb 1, 2013
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Are we forgetting how he played before Poch chased him. Giving the ball away in his own half on regular occasionsAppearing not to give a damn and no doubt behaving like a pratt around the club.
He won’t be back.
 
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