the UFC thread

[liberty]

Bit aggressive there? Allow me to retort.

I've been watching UFC since the early days. Randy Couture is definitely not overrated. (Steven Gerrard is overrated. John Terry is overrated). Just ask the bookies. He is probably the most inspirational man in any sport today. And a great game-planner to boot. That 16-8 record is very misleading. Both the heavyweights he lost to (Barnett and Rodruiguez) had drug allegations following them like a bad smell. And Couture has improved since those days in any case.

The 2 losses to Liddell were when Liddell was absolutely at his peak (and the first loss involved a thumb to the eye). The second loss was when he was going through a messy divorce.

However, never mind his defeats: look at the victories

Vitor Belfort - The Phenom. World Class BJJ and whirlwind fists. Couture was supposed to be a formality for him - Couture pounded him out, costing the bookies a fortune. I watched the fight - the commentators were pretty much lost for words.

Pedro Rizzo (2 fights) - an absolutely devastating striker (ask Andre Arlovski whom he smashed to pieces with a simple one-two). People again thought that he'd destroy Randy. The first fight Randy edged a decision. They thought the rematch he'd win easily - but Rizzo lost again, by stoppage.

Ortiz (at LHW) - at the time he was a scary bastard and was taking the game to a new level with his brutal ground and pound, great strength, speed and decent striking. Couture (heavy underdog) schooled him - and Ortiz never regained his edge.

Liddell (LHW) - this was the first fight. Again a big underdog, Randy not only beat Chuck but outstruck him on the feet for most of the fight before stopping him on the ground

Sylvia (HW). He comes out of retirement to fight the standout best HW at the time. Massive underdog. Tim Sylvia knocked 7 shades of shit out of Rodriguez (who'd beaten Randy a few years before), Arlovski twice, and was on the longest winning streak in heavyweight history. Randy had just lost twice to Chuck and was coming out of retirement. The reult was a 5-round demolition job

Gonzaga (HW) - This guy was a world class BJJ practitioner who had just almost kicked the head right off Cro-Cop (the highlight reel of highlight reels) An absolute beast whom everyone thought might actually kill Couture (spotting a trend here?) Randy dished him the biggest beating of his career from which he's not really recovered.

Lesnar only has 3 MMA fights but was a decorated National wrestler - and is regarded as the strongest and fastest heavyweight. He moves like a middleweight. He had to cut 30 pounds to make the weight limit at heavyweight. His punching power and accuracy impressed many in his last 2 fights also - he has improved a hell of a lot in this area. The first fight he was on the verge of beating Mir (an ex-champion who never actually lost his belt in the ring. Mir said he was close to losing and felt Lesnar was an absolute animal. He did catch him with a very good knee-bar, no disgrace for Lesnar considering it was his first UFC fight - and possible the worst match-up for him bar Minotauro).

In his second fight he fought Herring. This guy is a fucking tough bastard. He fought Fedor (and survived an onslaught), Noguiera 3 times (and nearly finished him the 3rd time. He's beaten loads of contenders in Pride, and won a deserved decision against the dangerous striker Chiek Kongo. Notably, Kongo (ex K1) wasn't keen on going toe-toe with him having felt his punches. Herring is no joke. But Lesnar just beat the shit out of him for 3 rounds, and this time used his experience from his first loss to not get carried away and suffer a potential submission. The speed of his puches, a narrowly missed flying knee and takedowns was nothing short of freakish. He doesn't need submissions he just needs to know enough not to get caught in them.

Comparing him to Kimbo Slice is, I hope just a very bad joke.

The one we all wanted was Fedor Randy but that may never happen. But this is just as intriguing and the bookmakers are split down the middle. The most intriguing aspect is that Randy may not be able to use his trump cards (the clinch, takedowns, raw strength) against someone who is just as good a wrestler, and stronger and faster than him. The MMA forums (mmaweekly and sherdog for example, not to mention the various blogs and podcasts (e.g. Beatdown, Savage Dog Show, Ultimate Podcast) are viewing this as the biggest MMA fight in history). Guess that's not impressive enough for you though.

Finally, on the other cards - I'm also looking forward to Stephenson Florian.

Plus Gonzaga and TUF winner Sadollah (who has been conspicuously absent since his win) are definitely worth watching.

They can't fit more than one 5-rounder in due to PPV timing restrictions. I feel the 2 main fights they have are very very evenly matched. Seems there's no pleasing some people, however.

It wasn’t meant to come across as aggressive at all. So sorry if you got that impression!

I don’t see how you can say that Couture is NOT overrated and Gerrard and Terry are (in their respective sports of course!). Gerrard turned the CL final on its head and has been Liverpool’s best player for some years now. An inspirational captain who gets stuck in and Liverpool have been a driving force in the PL for years! Name a better all round English central midfielder – Lampard comes closest and choosing between them is hard.

Terry, again, been a rock for Chelsea and helped them to consecutive league titles and an FA Cup win. Like Gerrard, an inspirational captain who will fight tooth and nail for the cause! I don’t see how you can say both these players are overrated.

However, an MMA fighter with a 16-8 record is the best heavyweight around? He’s old and fought an old Tim Sylvia to win back the HW title belt. Now I’m not saying Couture isn’t a very good fighter, because he is. He’s just not the best around at the moment and been over-hyped by patriotic Americans. Josh Barnett, Rodrigo Noguiera, Frank Mir and upcoming HW’s like dos Santos would beat Couture.

I never said Heath Herring was no joke either... he’s a capable HW fighter but nowhere near the best! Fought Nog 3 times and LOST 3 times. Again, not a particularly clean record that stands out much. I wouldn’t say he was anywhere near being the top heavyweight fighters in the UFC, let alone the world.

Lesnar is a hype-train. He’s a big, beefy puncher. Perfect match-up with Couture who also likes to stand toe to toe and punch. Lesnar will win but only because the UFC has matched it up for this to happen. They know if they stick Lesnar against someone more technical he will lose as he’s not agile enough and regardless of what you say, too slow (and consequently Mr. White losing out on his cash cow!). He’s only had what, 3 MMA fights, so not exactly an experienced seasoned MMA pro. Hardly the sort of ingredients for one of the best UFC fights ever.... pretty disrespectful to some of the other fights in the past. I actually will be surprised if the fight goes beyond the first round. I think it’ll be TKO stoppage.

I’d much prefer to see Kimbo vs Lesnar for the ‘freak’ hyped up show.

This fight will be like some sort of bar brawl. Lesnar doing only what he knows and what he’s good at – swinging punches and trying to throw Couture about and Couture giving everything he’s got in his ageing body to defend being taken down and laid on. I prefer to see more technical fights which incorporate some degree of skill rather than holding, laying on and throwing the odd haymaker.

With regards to Fedor and Couture. Although both now getting on a bit, Fedor would destroy Couture. I personally think that Fedor is still currently the best heavyweight fighter in the world. The only reason I wanted Fedor to fight Couture is because it would take a win over someone like Couture who is worshipped by most American MMA followers for Fedor to get the recognition he deserves.

Fedor has proved himself against fighters much larger than him and also against fighters more agile and technical than him.

 

[liberty]

Also, looks like you're going to be disappointed with this news.

 

[Has1978]

Don't know how to do spoilers so don't read on if you don't know the result..

Spoiler

quite depressed, but as i said all along - this guy's the real deal. no kimbo.

 

[punky]

Has1978, you type them like this:

[ spoiler ] Stuff here [/spoiler] But you take the spaces out between the [ ] brackets like:

Spoiler

I love the squaring up:

Spoiler

Great fight.

I am gutted for Couture, but you have to hand it to Brock. He was the better man and showed a lot of technique. Couture certainly took a lot of abuse.

Is it just me or did the ref let the pounding go on almost for ever? Seemed like it anyway.

 

[Has1978]

Spoiler

yeah the ref had to give it a bit longer as it was a championship fight. not an official rule - more an unwritten one.

He's improved since his Mir fight and I think would take him in a rematch. Minotauro is a different matter. p.s. cheers.

 

[liberty]

I predicted a first round TKO by Lesnar - was almost correct. Early second round TKO.

Wasn't the best! Maia Quarry was the fight of the night for me. The headliner as I thought would be quite boring and ended as expected... Lesnar on top throwing his hammer fists.

Fedor Arlovski will be good in the New Year.

Lesnar Nog should also be good (I predict Nog will beat Mir easily!) because of the technicalities with Nog making it a much more even match up then Lesnar Couture.

 

[Has1978]

The question is - will we get to see it (Fedor Arlovski)? Zuffa prevented Bravo from showing the Sylvia fight - and Setanta already do the UFC.

Arlovski is very dangerous.

 

[liberty]

The question is - will we get to see it (Fedor Arlovski)? Zuffa prevented Bravo from showing the Sylvia fight - and Setanta already do the UFC.

Arlovski is very dangerous.

Will stream it.

Arlovski is good, but Fedor will prove (again) that he's a class above. The UFC need Fedor IMO (more than he needs them). He will draw them A LOT of revenue and he is a very entertaining fighter as his stand-up is immense. A real heavy, fast hitter!

I do find it ridiculous at how little MMA fighters are paid.

 

[punky]

It'll be on the newsgroups if you have access. I dare say there will be some torrents floating around too. I'd rather wait and see it in top quality, than a crappy stream. Am looking forward to the match though. Haven't seen much Affliction stuff before though.

 

[riversmonkey]

Fedor's team have put forward an idea for a co-promotional clash with Lesnar but this will never happen.

 

[liberty]

Yeah because Dana White is immature and only does things on his terms. He can be a tosser sometimes.

 

[AngerManagement]

I miss the old day's of Pride (fighting championships not gay pride)

 

[AngerManagement]

Fedor's team have put forward an idea for a co-promotional clash with Lesnar but this will never happen.

No way will this happen, the UFC has nothing to gain from it (unless somehow LEsnar could win)

Most likely their champion would simply have his arse handed to him and then the guy who did it would walk straight off and leave the heavyweight divsion and championship at UFC completely devalued.

Right now a large majority of MMA fans are new fans who know releatively little about the sport (atleast beyond UFC and the Ultimate fighter reality show) As such Fedor's name doesn't carry anything like the clout his dominace deserves to.

It's a sad fact but true that Lesner is a bigger name then Fedor because of his WWF exploits, and it could even be argued that Kimbo Slices youtube hype has created a bigger name then Fedor carrys further then the more knowledgable mma fans.

To be frank unless you were around and alert to the world of mma when Pride was a major player most of the non hype mma would have gone unnoticed to the average fan. It's a compartively new sport and exposure to it has been limited. (its not like you could watch Pride or even UFC on Skysports or the like, only recently Bravo and now Setanta have invested in the sport)

Elite XC and its subsidery UK company Cage Rage do little for the sport as they make it look something of a circus show and promotions such as Cage Warriors in the midlands (I think I remember seeing as show up in Coventry about 6 years ago) are also too small time to enhance the name of the sport.

I think that before Bravo took the UFC on board the only fans of mma (in the UK) were pretty much those of us who partook in martial arts themselves and or the odd extreme internet user and violence lover.

Thankfully the UFC has brought mma to the mainstream although I fear it is losing some of it's appeal, they (to me atleast) are over saturating the Ultimate fighter show and ramming too many of those fighters down the viewers throat.

I was expecting more when PRide collopsed, Cro Cop was the biggest dissapointment but also I feel there have not been as many exciting fights as there once was. Maybe in its efforts to be more of a 'legitate' sport it has started to fall into the same pitfulls as boxing in that you don't always see the fights that you should as money/politics start to take more and more control over how things are run.

After all how did Lesner even get a title shot? fair play he won it but his record was too short to deserve the shot and lets face it his first major UFC fight was a loss.

The Fact that Fedor does not get to fight the UFC champion is to the discredit of the sport, what made the sport great at its best was the best fighting the best and how losing was not as big a deal as in boxing now it seems the creditbilty of the UFC and percieved value of their stable of fighters is more important then to see who really is the best in the world.

(look how long it took Liddell to face Wanderli, that should have happened when they were both champions.)

To me the lack of cohesion between rival companies will end up doing to MMA what the WBO/WBA/WBC/WHATEVEROTHERBELT has done to boxing and that is to detract from the product.

While UFC is the biggest game in town however you will atleast largely see the best people wanting to be there. Also fair play to Affliction who have put on some nice cards with their recent promotions (although I hear are not making money off them so will be unlikely to sustain this)

 

[mil1lion]

I miss the old day's of Pride (fighting championships not gay pride)

Corupt Pride? Nah. The UFC is really coming on strong now. I used to love the presentation of Pride FC and they had some great fighters there too, including Fedor. And Wanderlai Silva works better in Pride because of the soccer kicks etc. But it was a dodgy company in the end with fight fixing and whatnot. And the rest have gone under now. Affliction, Elite XC. There were dodgy goings on involving Kimbo Slice too. Their main franchise was pummeled recently (forget the opponents name) but the ref refused to stop the fight, then Kimbo turned the tide and with mere damage to his opponent the ref stopped it.

Say what you will about Dana White, but at least he doesn't fix fights.

 

[mil1lion]

No way will this happen, the UFC has nothing to gain from it (unless somehow LEsnar could win)

Most likely their champion would simply have his arse handed to him and then the guy who did it would walk straight off and leave the heavyweight divsion and championship at UFC completely devalued.

Right now a large majority of MMA fans are new fans who know releatively little about the sport (atleast beyond UFC and the Ultimate fighter reality show) As such Fedor's name doesn't carry anything like the clout his dominace deserves to.

It's a sad fact but true that Lesner is a bigger name then Fedor because of his WWF exploits, and it could even be argued that Kimbo Slices youtube hype has created a bigger name then Fedor carrys further then the more knowledgable mma fans.

To be frank unless you were around and alert to the world of mma when Pride was a major player most of the non hype mma would have gone unnoticed to the average fan. It's a compartively new sport and exposure to it has been limited. (its not like you could watch Pride or even UFC on Skysports or the like, only recently Bravo and now Setanta have invested in the sport)

Elite XC and its subsidery UK company Cage Rage do little for the sport as they make it look something of a circus show and promotions such as Cage Warriors in the midlands (I think I remember seeing as show up in Coventry about 6 years ago) are also too small time to enhance the name of the sport.

I think that before Bravo took the UFC on board the only fans of mma (in the UK) were pretty much those of us who partook in martial arts themselves and or the odd extreme internet user and violence lover.

Thankfully the UFC has brought mma to the mainstream although I fear it is losing some of it's appeal, they (to me atleast) are over saturating the Ultimate fighter show and ramming too many of those fighters down the viewers throat.

I was expecting more when PRide collopsed, Cro Cop was the biggest dissapointment but also I feel there have not been as many exciting fights as there once was. Maybe in its efforts to be more of a 'legitate' sport it has started to fall into the same pitfulls as boxing in that you don't always see the fights that you should as money/politics start to take more and more control over how things are run.

After all how did Lesner even get a title shot? fair play he won it but his record was too short to deserve the shot and lets face it his first major UFC fight was a loss.

The Fact that Fedor does not get to fight the UFC champion is to the discredit of the sport, what made the sport great at its best was the best fighting the best and how losing was not as big a deal as in boxing now it seems the creditbilty of the UFC and percieved value of their stable of fighters is more important then to see who really is the best in the world.

(look how long it took Liddell to face Wanderli, that should have happened when they were both champions.)

To me the lack of cohesion between rival companies will end up doing to MMA what the WBO/WBA/WBC/WHATEVEROTHERBELT has done to boxing and that is to detract from the product.

While UFC is the biggest game in town however you will atleast largely see the best people wanting to be there. Also fair play to Affliction who have put on some nice cards with their recent promotions (although I hear are not making money off them so will be unlikely to sustain this)

Some very good points there.

You're right about Brock Lesnar. He is a massive draw for the UFC at the moment. And as you say, its because of his days in WWE that he has become so popular (Bobby Lashley could follow in a couple of years too.) And i really dont understand how Brock Lesner can be called the UFC Champion. Nogeira deserves that title and only Nogeira deserves it. Randy Couture may not have lost the belt, but when you leave the UFC then surely you lose you title too.

But unfortunately for the UFC, the Heavyweight division is the weak point at the moment. Brock got a great opportunity so early in his MMA career. And i actually think he has great potential to dominate the division (i can see him as the Tito Ortiz/Mark Hughes of the Heavyweight division in the future.) But he is a long way away from the top Heavyweights in the world. But who is there now in the UFC Heavyweight division who could challenge? There aren't many great Heavyweights left now. Arlovski was good a few years back but has lost his way. Sylvia has never been great but even he was one of their best Heavyweights. And Cro-Cop fell flat on his face (literally so in this country.) So i can understand why Brock is being pushed.

Hopefully (for me at least) Nogeira will beat Mir and take the belt from Lesner (by tapping him out) and we'll have a worthy Heavyweight Champion again. And if they can manage to get Fedor over, a title match with Nogeira would be well worthy of a main event. Even though it wouldn't draw a great deal of buys on its own. Unfortunately the American fans (and English for that matter) wouldn't appreciate such a match as this though. Which is a great shame, because inside the octagon thhat could be one hell of a technical fight. The sooner UFC expands to Japan the better. At least those guys appreciate the technical side of the sport a lot more.

 

[AngerManagement]

Corupt Pride? Nah. The UFC is really coming on strong now. I used to love the presentation of Pride FC and they had some great fighters there too, including Fedor. And Wanderlai Silva works better in Pride because of the soccer kicks etc. But it was a dodgy company in the end with fight fixing and whatnot. And the rest have gone under now. Affliction, Elite XC. There were dodgy goings on involving Kimbo Slice too. Their main franchise was pummeled recently (forget the opponents name) but the ref refused to stop the fight, then Kimbo turned the tide and with mere damage to his opponent the ref stopped it.

Say what you will about Dana White, but at least he doesn't fix fights.

I pay very little attention to Elite so I may be wrong, but the last fight I saw Kimbo have there was against Britians own glass jawed James Thompson (who somehow holds a victory over *an Aging* Don Frye)

I never watched the fight myself but I believe there was a certain amount of contervisory regarding the stoppage.

Not having Setanta myself my abilty to view MMA has declined, I mostly watch the events on MMA root now days, so this may well have alot to do with my slight decline in interest (also because I have been out of my martial arts training for a year or so, I also found I was less into football when I stopped playing at 18)

BJ PENN GSP 2 is the only fight I am very keen to see right now, I'd also love to see a rematch for Rampage against either of Wanderli or Shogun.

Big Nog is the man UFC need to be their HW champ right now, while Lesner is a popular name because of WWF fame I think it is something of a farce to give a man a title shot after so few fights when he was clearly further down the pecking order then others (but then Nog and Mir were tied up to the UF)

I'd personally like to see more of the K1 rota compete in MMA not on the heros circuit, but I find it a shame that strikers with no ground game cannot compete as I love K1 but their set up lends its self to far too many uneventful decisions.

The likes of Bonjesky and Hari are such exciting fighters though, if only they could learn enough take down defence to be competant under UFC rules there would be alot of talent to tap into (from a striking perspective) Cro Cop after all made the transition well (up until his UFC move)

 

[riversmonkey]

I see there being some potential for the UFC heavyweight division what with names like Shane Carwin, Gabriel Gonzaga, Junior dos Santos and Cain Velasquez all coming through

 

[punky]

Who does everyone have in the upcoming UFC this weekend?

Forrest Griffin vs. Rashad Evans
Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira vs. Frank Mir
Quinton Jackson vs. Wanderlei Silva
C.B. Dollaway vs. Mike Massenzio
Cheick Kongo vs. Mustafa Al Turk

I've underlined who I think will win.

Griffin: A lot tougher than he looks Who thought he'd beat Jackson? He dealt with him very well, no reason he can't do the same with Evans.

Mir: Tough, and very good all rounder. So is Noguiera, but I think Mir is the younger upstart with a good record.

Silva: Tough one to call, but I think Silva's BJJ will out match Jackson's boxing.

Dollaway: The guy is just an animal. I've never seen anyone tear people apart with such controlled aggression.

Kongo: Don't really know about this one, but the guy who is coached by Bisping which is good enough for me.

 

[AngerManagement]

Who does everyone have in the upcoming UFC this weekend?



I've underlined who I think will win.

Griffin: A lot tougher than he looks Who thought he'd beat Jackson? He dealt with him very well, no reason he can't do the same with Evans.

Mir: Tough, and very good all rounder. So is Noguiera, but I think Mir is the younger upstart with a good record.

Silva: Tough one to call, but I think Silva's BJJ will out match Jackson's boxing.

Dollaway: The guy is just an animal. I've never seen anyone tear people apart with such controlled aggression.

Kongo: Don't really know about this one, but the guy who is coached by Bisping which is good enough for me.

I think Rashad will beat Forrest on points.

I think Noguiera will best Mir comfortably.

I think Wanderli will beat Rampage for a third time, if he is able to utilise his knees again.

I would imagion CJ will have enough to win his fight and Congo will destroy AL Turk for sure (Al Turk is basically a Cage Rage level fighter only)

Well those are my predecions anyway, but MMA is often far from predictable

 

[riversmonkey]

I'm going for Rashad via TKO, I think he knows Griffin is a cardio machine so he will attack early and decisively.

Nog via unanimous decision, I think Mir will gas

I'm going for a Rampage upset, I think the Wolfslair training will be pivotal

Dollaway should win convincingly and Kongo will destroy Al Turk, setting up a 2009 matchup with either Carwin or Dos Santos.