top 4 material?

[SpurSince57]

well of course the damage had been irretriviably done - we had no chance of finishing top 4 by the time we played Sunderland the second time round

No, we didn't, but that doesn't alter the fact that we should not have spent the best part of forty-five minutes on the back foot at home against Sunderland, minds on the CC SF or not. There being nothing to play for as far as the league is concerned in no way excuses the truly abject showings against the Barcodes, Birmingham and Boro. Nor should it have taken us until after half-time to impose ourselves against Derby.

It seems Jol was right when he claimed that we'd overachieved; in fact, many of us suspected this was the case—that when we were missing just two or three key players, as was the case for much of last season, our competitiveness was seriously impaired. Levy and Miller—and presumably the rest of the board, not to mention Comolli—appear to have disagreed.

Our new coach seems to have reached the same conclusion as Jol, and now Levy has changed his tune. How very surprising.

 

[fortworthspur]

It seems Jol was right when he claimed that we'd overachieved; in fact, many of us suspected this was the case—that when we were missing just two or three key players, as was the case for much of last season, our competitiveness was seriously impaired. Levy and Miller—and presumably the rest of the board, not to mention Comolli—appear to have disagreed.

If we overachieved, it was just a little. I think we are upper 2nd quartile in talent. the difference between the first and second quartiles is large, though. To realistically challenge the top 4 we are going to have to spend a lot of money, have all those players pay off (thats really been the problem, right?) and realistically we cant do it in one off-season.

 

[drjimmy]

Hi 57 -The opening game of course - the one that showed me what I already thought - we ain't top 4 material

God, I didn't need reminding about that one! :roll:

What a waste of time/fuel/money/hope.........

 

[DC_Boy]

fair comments 57 and hi Luke - don't want to be pedantic - but honestly at no time this season have I ever thought we're top 4 material - no matter how well we might play on a given day -

just look at the team

only 2 of the current back 5 are good enough (Hutton & woodgate - please don't say Bale & King cos I'll cry - when they're fit and playing regularly - then we can count them )
mid - opinions differ - even tho I'm a member of the JJ fan club - I probably have to agree none of the current crop are top material - maybe 'squad fodder'

up front yes to Berbs - and I could see Keane & Bent fitting into a top 4 squad - but some will disagree

bottom line is currently about 4 'top 4' regulars IMHO

that's nowhere near enough - then there are other problems on top - because the top 4 are so well established they find it easier to get in top 4 players - so chances are it'll be catch up time again this summer

then there's the fact there is an institutional bias in the game - led by the appalling Sky circus - in favour of the top 4 - (disregard this one as paranoia if you want - but a lot of people believe it - doesn't make it true of course

then there's the mental aspect when we go to OT etc we stil seem on the verge of losing before we start - maybe new players will change this - but to break top 4 the occasional draw isn't enough we ned to start winning the occasional away game - it makes such a difference

WE could have won at OT early in the season - I think it might have killed their title challenge - it would certainly have given us a comfortable cushion over them - but we didn't - not helped by typical refereeing and good ole 'bad luck'

the task is so huge - that's why one or 2 great games every so often never convinces me -

 

[DC_Boy]

God, I didn't need reminding about that one! :roll:

What a waste of time/fuel/money/hope.........

drj - you have my sympathies - I've been on thos long northern trips and come home defeated - it's a horrible, horrible feeling at times

even sat in my comfy living room the drip drip of the cold water of reality on our grand pretensions was painful enough - you just thought - we're gonna lose this - we shouldn't but somehow we will, and we did

 

[drjimmy]

drj - you have my sympathies - I've been on thos long northern trips and come home defeated - it's a horrible, horrible feeling at times

even sat in my comfy living room the drip drip of the cold water of reality on our grand pretensions was painful enough - you just thought - we're gonna lose this - we shouldn't but somehow we will, and we did

Aye, it is a horrible feeling........ as was the previous time SundIreland were in the Prem, where we managed to scrape a 1-1- draw, as they were being relegated :roll:

Add to that a 5-0 stuffing at Boro. numerous trips to Toon-town, OT & scouse-land with fcuk all to show for them and it all starts to pale a bit. :-|

Schlepping across Europe, however, has been a breeze! :up:

 

[DC_Boy]

Aye, it is a horrible feeling........ as was the previous time SundIreland were in the Prem, where we managed to scrape a 1-1- draw, as they were being relegated :roll:

Add to that a 5-0 stuffing at Boro. numerous trips to Toon-town, OT & scouse-land with fcuk all to show for them and it all starts to pale a bit. :-|

Schlepping across Europe, however, has been a breeze! :up:

well fair play to you drj for keeping the faith - and yep we've done well in Europe over the past 2 seasons - would love to have been at that Beskitas game - that was something special

 

[spurs4europe]

you don't always need 70+ to end up in top four. Last season Arsenal finished 4th with only 68 points and the season before that they just managed 67 points. Three seasons ago when Everton finished 4th above L'pool, they only did so with 61 points.

this season liverpool will probably end up with 75+ but next season 60 could be enough, and 80 could not be enough.

i'm not sure that's necessarily true nowadays.

as the money from being in the premiership and also the champions league gets larger, the divide between the top and the bottom is getting wider.
everyone always used to say how 40 points was the minimum to be safe from relegation. now that figure is nearer to just over 30 points.

similarly, just as 60 used to be enough to get into the top 4, i think that has also gone up by roughly 10 points.

regardless, it will be a huge a ask to get anywhere near those numbers and will require extremely astute acquisitions with good use of our budget of the type that we haven't seen in years.
anyone can make 1 fantastic signing every so often, but to make 4, 5 or 6 such signings is near unheard of.

 

[lukespurs7]

fair comments 57 and hi Luke - don't want to be pedantic - but honestly at no time this season have I ever thought we're top 4 material - no matter how well we might play on a given day -

just look at the team

only 2 of the current back 5 are good enough (Hutton & woodgate - please don't say Bale & King cos I'll cry - when they're fit and playing regularly - then we can count them )
mid - opinions differ - even tho I'm a member of the JJ fan club - I probably have to agree none of the current crop are top material - maybe 'squad fodder'

up front yes to Berbs - and I could see Keane & Bent fitting into a top 4 squad - but some will disagree

bottom line is currently about 4 'top 4' regulars IMHO

that's nowhere near enough - then there are other problems on top - because the top 4 are so well established they find it easier to get in top 4 players - so chances are it'll be catch up time again this summer

then there's the fact there is an institutional bias in the game - led by the appalling Sky circus - in favour of the top 4 - (disregard this one as paranoia if you want - but a lot of people believe it - doesn't make it true of course

then there's the mental aspect when we go to OT etc we stil seem on the verge of losing before we start - maybe new players will change this - but to break top 4 the occasional draw isn't enough we ned to start winning the occasional away game - it makes such a difference

WE could have won at OT early in the season - I think it might have killed their title challenge - it would certainly have given us a comfortable cushion over them - but we didn't - not helped by typical refereeing and good ole 'bad luck'

the task is so huge - that's why one or 2 great games every so often never convinces me -

Fair play mate, some good points, agree with a fair bit of what you said.
Basically breaking into the top4 is/will be very very difficult for not only us but anyone. We still lack the quality required even though we'd not like to admit that.
Also the gap seems to be widening even further in terms of points and quality of squads, 2 seasons ago when we came 5th i thought we weren't that far off but i think this summers transfer window was a little bit of a disaster as we signed in the wrong areas whilst Liverpool strengtherned massively with Torres, Man.u with Anderson,Hargreaves,Tevez. Chelsea with Anelka,Beletti etc we did well to get Bale but Bent was unesseccary and we failed yet again to adress our midfield and defence until january when it was clear for all to see there was a big problem. Still however the midfield lacks creativity and balance. And still we lack a leader.

But who knows, things change, circumstances change teams lose players, gain players, teams improve, get worse etc, it's very very hard to say what will happen next year but i'm saying now 5th and a cup final would be a fantastic season-trust!

 

[DC_Boy]

Luke - yep 5th and a cup final would do me - preferably a winning Cup Final

as we agree there's quite a gap twixt the big 4 and the rest -

I just can't see us bridging it next season - but hey - I'll wait for the transfer window to close in august before making my final prediction

 

[Darrkespur]

It's difficult to say as although people talk about us needing four or five 'top 4 players' I think the distinction is much more vague. In actual fact I think one top class midfielder could sort out the whole team but it'd have to be the perfect fit with the rest of the players, that kept the midfield tight and gave it creativity and dragged it up by its balls when it wasn't working hard enough.

When you look at liverpool for instance, Gerrard and Torres are stupidly phenomenal, and Carragher and Reina are very dependable. They've got some other good players, such as Alonso and Mascherano, but their wingers, full backs and other strikers are similar quality to our squad.

You need a leader at each of the four positions, i think. Two or more, of course, and you're laughing - like Man Utd are with Ferdinand and Vidic being 'defensive-style' leaders - players that won't let up and won't let the other team past them. Ronaldo, Tevez and Rooney are all 'attacking-style' leaders - players that have creativity and class to turn a game on its head. Potentially Hargreaves, Nani and Carrick could all end up in one of the two categories.

So yeah, for a title winning team, leaders in most positions, great. But our target is that fourth spot and that's Liverpool. I'd say they have two good leaders in goal and in defense, plus two out of this world attacking leaders, Gerrard and Torres.

Now, I think we have King/Woodgate/Hutton, potentially three defensive leaders. Keane/Berbatov and bale when fit are all great attacking leaders and Huddlestone *could* get there but not for a few years. The problem is, both in goal and in midfield, we haven't got the leaders. This means that even though our defense is good on paper, they've got noone organising the midfield and talking with them, so the defense lets in goals because people get confused. The same applies to the midfield and the attack - because no one's really in command of the midfield, the strikers often lack service. The best games we've had are when either Huddlestone or Jenas takes the game by the scruff of the neck and dominates midfield but this doesn't work enough of the time and in Jenas' case I don't think it ever will. I think he's a good player and should be in our team but he's not the lynchpin, he's the facilitator, like Barry at Villa.

I think we have to get better on the wings OR buy a superstar in the centre. Preferably both, but the second is much harder. All the best teams have players who fans of other teams point to and say 'I'm scared of him destroying us'. It's nice when you've got a striker people say this about, but like Anelka at Bolton, it's not enough. I think the player has to be a midfielder. Ronaldo. Gerrard. Fabregas. Lampard. Kaka. Zidane. Viera. Keane.

We don't have a player like that. Bale could do it and I think Huddlestone could too but it's less likely. But the thing about it is, people say we're so far behind, and yet one player could transform our team by keeping its shape consistently and giving us a focus to the team. Torres has made Liverpool powerful but without Gerrard, I'm not sure it'd be enough.

Personally I think Modric might be able to do it. It's a really tough problem to get right but one goalkeeper, one midfielder may be all we need, if they are the perfect fit.

 

[guy]

Definitely one MF and a goalie could well make us a hell of a lot better as a team. Whether it would be good enough to break the top 4 is another question. Add to that a dangerous left winger or LB (depending on where bale fits in) and we could look the real deal. The metality of the rest of the squad needs to change though to match the players we bring in, ie winners.

We cannot afford to fluff goals and points like we always do!!! it simply will not do. And if any player cant handle that they can get lost!

 

[Defsta]

Jol was given the boot because:

a) he was too lax
b) he was 'tactically naive'
c) he was unable to get this 'fantastic team' to achieve its potential (or reach the famed 'next level')
d) he claimed the team had overachieved
e) he hadn't been able to beat the 'Big Four'/win a trophy
f) all of the above, plus anything else you feel like chucking in for good measure

Two months after Ramos takes over, and days after Levy has announced there won't be any major spending in January, we splash out £23m on new players; this could easily have been £35m+ if Tiago hadn't pissed us about (and if Marco Amelia is to believed). Even more, perhaps, if Jarque hadn't been injured. Now, every indication is that most of the 'great players' of last August's 'fantastic team' will be gone come next season, and yet the Beloved Leader is now telling us that it won't be a failure if another bout of massive expenditure doesn't result in a top four spot.

Naively, perhaps, I thought that we'd hired Ramos to do what Jol couldn't do with the existing squad, which only needed a top manager to make it competitive. It seems he's given up on that notion. I don't think it unreasonable to ask precisely what is going on, or even to suggest that we're into Emperor's New Clothes territory.



Which game against the Mackems are you talking about?

Those all are bullshit, as we are the most productive team in premiership, but our defence is shit and our defence has been shit since Ledley picked up that injury in start of the last season. Dawson was awesome with king and even lanky bastard Gardner was good with King but after that our defence has been a shit. Even we can score, but our defence is shit and if we keep same thing going on we'll be shit next season until we get replacement for King.

So we're screwed as Woodgate doesn't cover King if anyone or maybe Puyol or Cannavaro can do that but they are old farts. :shrug:

 

[fortworthspur]

Im inclined to agree that if you had to focus in on one difference between this year and the last two, it would be the absence of King.


A healthy King, or a suitable replacement, still wont be enough, though.

 

[C0YS]

Jol was given the boot because:

a) he was too lax
b) he was 'tactically naive'
c) he was unable to get this 'fantastic team' to achieve its potential (or reach the famed 'next level')
d) he claimed the team had overachieved
e) he hadn't been able to beat the 'Big Four'/win a trophy
f) all of the above, plus anything else you feel like chucking in for good measure

Two months after Ramos takes over, and days after Levy has announced there won't be any major spending in January, we splash out £23m on new players; this could easily have been £35m+ if Tiago hadn't pissed us about (and if Marco Amelia is to believed). Even more, perhaps, if Jarque hadn't been injured. Now, every indication is that most of the 'great players' of last August's 'fantastic team' will be gone come next season, and yet the Beloved Leader is now telling us that it won't be a failure if another bout of massive expenditure doesn't result in a top four spot.

Naively, perhaps, I thought that we'd hired Ramos to do what Jol couldn't do with the existing squad, which only needed a top manager to make it competitive. It seems he's given up on that notion. I don't think it unreasonable to ask precisely what is going on, or even to suggest that we're into Emperor's New Clothes territory.



Which game against the Mackems are you talking about?

I think you have a resenable point, I agree with the things hylighted in bold, but I also belive that Levy was thinking of sacking Jol waaayyy before this season even started and I belive he was only waiting for an excuss, the problem lies dispite Levy being a great bussiniss man he dosent know eff all about football TBH, and thefore failed to realise that the team was not top 4 standered, but also because we have never truly got over the loss of Carrick, who is what the team revolved around. We are not Top 4 matirial yet, and buying loads will NOT make us achive better it would just mean we have a bunch of great players who cant play together!!!, we need to intergrate are team slowly, like Man utd, Arsenal do, (admitingly Chelsea dont do this but player buy player they should be miles ahead of Arsenal and Man Utd, Liverpool also, but they again have greatly "underachived" in terms of pounds spent). We need to buy a small quantity of class players into the team each year.....realisticaly, judging by were we are now I belive it is doable to make the top 4 in the next 3 years, but it will still be extremly difficult. The entire point of a 5 year plan was to do this, unfortunatly the club has totaly distroyed the 5 year plan in search for imedite success, which was greedy and impatent, but to build great teams we need to be patient.., and I plead to all tottenham supporters be patient, including the board and Ramos..

It took bill Nich a couple of years to make spurs a truly great team, It took Berkinsure even longer, and Im sure Ramos willalso need his time, as Jol should of been given more time.

 

[Kendall]

As we did buy a whole new defence in January I have to say I'm slightly disappointed with our form under Ramos.

Don't get me wrong, there's no way I'm even dancing around the notion of calling for his head, but I did expect some kind of marked improvement and I don't think we've seen that.

 

[chinaman]

I think if we can break into the top 4, and repeat the feat again the year following, there would be a good chance that we would have arrived as with our financial strength on top of the money gained from qualifying twice in succession for the CL, Ramos would really be able to build a dynasty.