Tottenham fans must look at the big picture

[225]

It is. Really.

I think a very kind draw in the Carling Cup has left us on the verge of Wembley as opposed to anything Pochettino related.

Because we haven't been knocked out to West Ham, Norwich, Leeds, Stoke, Fulham and Portsmouth in the cups under AVB, Sherwood and Redknapp?

 

[Main Man]

much more objective than your last post, all IMO of course. In addition to the Russians, I watched the Sunderland game for the first time over the weekend (my stream died on the day) and judging by all the vitriol on here I expected us to be absolute crap. We were not, in the last 25 or so I thought we showed more drive and movement than I'd seen for quite some time. What worries me just as much is that we manage to concede two gilt edged chances during that domination, luckily both fell to Graham!

We did OK against Sunderland, but kamikaze defending from Jan let them back in and from then on either team could have won.

 

[TottenhamMattSpur]

We scored some good goals against Chelsea, but if we are being honest Chelsea should have come away from that game with something.

Second half especially, they missed chance after chance.

You must've been watching a different game. Defending wasn't great but we could also have scored more ourselves.

 

[Main Man]

Because we haven't been knocked out to West Ham, Norwich, Leeds, Stoke, Fulham and Portsmouth in the cups under AVB, Sherwood and Redknapp?

All Premier League teams respectively at the times we played them other than Leeds which was an horrific result. We had a stunning Premier League record at the time however so that glossed that one over a little.

We threw it away against West Ham after actually playing quite well.

I don't recall the Fulham game too well but didn't we have a player sent off (Dawson?) after 10 minutes?

 

[225]

All Premier League teams respectively at the times we played them other than Leeds which was an horrific result. We had a stunning Premier League record at the time however so that glossed that one over a little.

We threw it away against West Ham after actually playing quite well.

I don't recall the Fulham game too well but didn't we have a player sent off (Dawson?) after 10 minutes?

We lost 4-0 to fulham. Having a man sent off makes no difference - we have got to the Semi-Final on merit - simple as that

 

[Locotoro]

And yet the one striker we have got that seems capable of scoring regularly had been pushed back.
It doesn't feel like we're improving at all. Since the Chelsea game we've been beaten by Leicester, held to a draw by Burnley, scrapped a win vs Sunderland and an even closer win against league 1 Sheffield United.

Why are you only looking at the last 10 games?

Looking at Poch's tenure so far in full, he hasn't performed as well as any of our three previous managers. That is fact.

This is the worst team we have had since Harry took over although I can accept that isn't necessarily Poch's fault (he does have to take some responsibility though imo).

But with regards those 10 games you mention alongside our record, how many have we actually deserved to win? How many can you actually say us not winning would have been a travesty?

The answer is one - and it was the Burnley replay after we gave them a two goal head start.

We have outplayed one team in our last 10 games. Why I am the only Spurs fan who this worries is completely beyond me.

I would much rather have a team that wins after a battle than a team that plays nice attractive football but loses more often than not. Do you not remember the 90's where we had a group of flashy players with no bottle? The team that grinds out the results wins the trophies.

If you win a game its because you were more effective than the other team. The scoreline is the statistic that is the most important. Yes we all want to see attractive play but you're effectively judging a manager after being in the job for 6 months. He has things the right way around. Results buy time and with that time he can change the squad and philosophy to how he wants to play.

 

[UbeAstard]

..... winning games gives the players and manager breathing space and time to tweak the team ever so slightly until we have not only a winning team but one playing with greater efficiency.

I agree and the 9 changes at the weekend ended how it was always likely to end.

 

[JoeT]

much more objective than your last post, all IMO of course. In addition to the Russians, I watched the Sunderland game for the first time over the weekend (my stream died on the day) and judging by all the vitriol on here I expected us to be absolute crap. We were not, in the last 25 or so I thought we showed more drive and movement than I'd seen for quite some time. What worries me just as much is that we manage to concede two gilt edged chances during that domination, luckily both fell to Graham!

Hi 'cliff'. Conceding two "guilt edged chances" in a game is not too bad when you consider that Spurs' two C.B's are just not the same quality as, in the past. (say, King and Woodgate). I could say the same up front; Ade, and Soldado are just not the same as Berbatov and Keane were.
The only part of the team that really has any class these days is the midfield...Eriksen, Chadli, and maybe Lamela/Townsend.
i.m.h.o. it's part of the general trend of the team losing quality and running down to become just another mid-table (or slightly above) team. That's what we are and I will still (of course) support Spurs, just like other fans support their teams.
As has been said on here; it would be so great to make the League Cup final because just maybe those recent semi-glory days of Bale and the C.L. are gone. The League Cup (final at least) is within our grasp; let's enjoy it.
For me that's the Big Picture.

 

[Main Man]

I would much rather have a team that wins after a battle than a team that plays nice attractive football but loses more often than not. Do you not remember the 90's where we had a group of flashy players with no bottle? The team that grinds out the results wins the trophies.

If you win a game its because you were more effective than the other team. The scoreline is the statistic that is the most important. Yes we all want to see attractive play but you're effectively judging a manager after being in the job for 6 months. He has things the right way around. Results buy time and with that time he can change the squad and philosophy to how he wants to play.

If you are happy with our League results so far then that is your prerogative.

But I am not.

And our previous three managers were relieved of their duties despite achieving better than our current.

 

[Main Man]

We lost 4-0 to fulham. Having a man sent off makes no difference - we have got to the Semi-Final on merit - simple as that

We have got to the semi final on merit beating Championship side and a Premier League reserve team.

Manager of the Year.

 

[225]

We have got to the semi final on merit beating Championship side and a Premier League reserve team.

Manager of the Year.

Using our reserve side

 

[Locotoro]

If you are happy with our League results so far then that is your prerogative.

But I am not.

And our previous three managers were relieved of their duties despite achieving better than our current.

Am I happy in the circumstances? Yes I am.

What did you expect at the beginning of the season? For us to be thrashing teams left right and centre? Or that we would go straight into fighting for the title?

We have had results that have been poor and there is no refuting that but to say that Poch has not changed aspects of our play is plainly incorrect. We are a far more energetic team than we were previously whereby we are scoring late goals far more than we used to. Whilst the play itself may be "sideways sideways" do you think that Poch has all the tools that he requires at his disposal? Its quite clear that he wants to revamp the squad and do away with certain players that a) don't buy into his philosophy and b) that simply don't fit.

On the issue of our previous 3 managers? Well, i think it suffice to say that all 3 were relieved for non-footballing reasons so if you are saying that their performances were not good enough that is not a valid argument.

What I am most pleased by is the feeling that Poch is in no rush to go out and get rid of everyone and his dog and bring in a heap of new players that will need to bed and that he is seemingly being given time to implement his changes. There is no pressure on him at the moment so why do we feel the need to throw him under the bus at the first opportunity

 

[Locotoro]

We have got to the semi final on merit beating Championship side and a Premier League reserve team.

Manager of the Year.

Who cares if it was a reserve side or a championship side. Do you think people look at a cup and say "Ah that doesnt count as much because they played easier teams to the final"

In years to come no one will care who you played in the semi or the quarters. You beat who you have in front of you.

 

[npearl4spurs]

We scored some good goals against Chelsea, but if we are being honest Chelsea should have come away from that game with something.

Second half especially, they missed chance after chance.

Are you kidding me? We dominated Chelsea after the first 20-25 minutes of that match considering they are the best team in the league. Sure they had a few chances but we were good enough.

 

[cliff jones]

Hi 'cliff'. Conceding two "guilt edged chances" in a game is not too bad when you consider that Spurs' two C.B's are just not the same quality as, in the past. (say, King and Woodgate). I could say the same up front; Ade, and Soldado are just not the same as Berbatov and Keane were.
The only part of the team that really has any class these days is the midfield...Eriksen, Chadli, and maybe Lamela/Townsend.
i.m.h.o. it's part of the general trend of the team losing quality and running down to become just another mid-table (or slightly above) team. That's what we are and I will still (of course) support Spurs, just like other fans support their teams.
As has been said on here; it would be so great to make the League Cup final because just maybe those recent semi-glory days of Bale and the C.L. are gone. The League Cup (final at least) is within our grasp; let's enjoy it.
For me that's the Big Picture.

don't get me wrong Joe, usually an early FAC exit signifies the last chance of a pot gone, but this year knowing we're effectively one up on Sheff U at their ground for a place in the League final provides much more than consolation for our sad demise at home to Leicester.

What I'm getting at is we don't score many and we let too many in. That's the big picture. Not the best recipe for winning football matches. Lloris, Eriksen, Kane, and three or four others continue to do well but pretty much all our wins (bar two) even with our best team out have been by the slenderest of margins.

Our second string, Kaboul, Chiriches, Ade, Soldado, just don't cut it, at either end. When they play we're really fooked.

Again that's the bigger picture of the squad, and this doesn't look like changing anytime soon...

 

[Main Man]

What did you expect at the beginning of the season? For us to be thrashing teams left right and centre? Or that we would go straight into fighting for the title?

I expected us to perform just as well as we did under AVB and Sherwood, and I personally don't think we have. The quality of football certainly hasn't improved, and from an entertainment point of view (Chelsea fixture aside) Sherwood's team produced better. I also don't expect us have a home record beffitting that of a team fighting relegation.

We are a far more energetic team than we were previously whereby we are scoring late goals far more than we used to.

Really? Are we? Are we scoring more late goals than we did under AVB? Are we working any harder than we did under Sherwood? The answer is no to all. We have a few younger players who now put a lot of effort in, but we still have an incredible amount of sideways passing and running midfielders.

Its quite clear that he wants to revamp the squad and do away with certain players that a) don't buy into his philosophy and b) that simply don't fit.

Why is that clear? He keeps playing players which we all know don't fit into the perceived Poch philosophy. He has also made it public that he is happy with his squad etc - both of our previous mangers questioned its balance and make up, but not this one.

Then I look at the isolation of Aaron Lennon - who I understand doesn't fit in a 4-5-1 as an inverted winger - but he works far harder than any of the other wingers we have. He is more inclined to this 'philosophy' than anyone else yet Poch has marginalised him seemingly?

This leads me to wonder who's philosophy we are working to. Is it Poch's, Baldini's or Levy's? What I do know is that this summer we let two players leave in the shape of Dawson and Sandro, and replaced them with inferior players. Again, Sandro would have been more suited to a pressing game than certain others?

There is no pressure on him at the moment so why do we feel the need to throw him under the bus at the first opportunity

Why is there no pressure? We sold our best players in consecutive seasons under AVB yet he was expected to deliver all sorts of largely unrealistic achievements. Sherwood couldn't have realistically done any better (Carling Cup defeat aside perhaps) yet there probably wasn't a single fan sad to see him go.

But now all of a sudden we are happy to accept mediocrity in the hope that Poch and his imagined philosophy will lead us to success.

I wish I could share the majority's hopefulness, but give me something to work with. I have not seen anything to suggest we are going in the right direction, nothing whatsoever.

 

[Main Man]

Who cares if it was a reserve side or a championship side. Do you think people look at a cup and say "Ah that doesnt count as much because they played easier teams to the final"

In years to come no one will care who you played in the semi or the quarters. You beat who you have in front of you.

When looking at a cup run and its credibility in terms of overall achievement, only a fool wouldn't take into account the level of opposition faced.

 

[225]

When looking at a cup run and its credibility in terms of overall achievement, only a fool wouldn't take into account the level of opposition faced.

I'm sure that really burns the gooners after last season...

"Cancel the open top bus, boys. We played Coventry, Everton, Wigan and Hull - it doesn't count"

It could easily have been us in that cup run, as they took our place in the 4th round, so would you really belittle the achievement if we won?

 

[Main Man]

You clearly understand my point but are choosing to ignore it and respond sarcastically.

If we do reach the final then on face value you can call that a great achievement.

But if you were to look at it objectively and the fixtures we faced/respective team sheets etc it really isn't much of an achievement.

If we beat Chelsea/Liverpool in the Final then he can have a new contract.

But until then, I definitely think we have profited from a kind draw rather than progressing due to our brilliance. To think that you are actually questioning this is bewildering to say the least.

 

[225]

You clearly understand my point but are choosing to ignore it and respond sarcastically.

If we do reach the final then on face value you can call that a great achievement.

But if you were to look at it objectively and the fixtures we faced/respective team sheets etc it really isn't much of an achievement.

If we beat Chelsea/Liverpool in the Final then he can have a new contract.

But until then, I definitely think we have profited from a kind draw rather than progressing due to our brilliance. To think that you are actually questioning this is bewildering to say the least.

But you're completely disregarding and belittling the achievements of smaller clubs!

Wigan Athletic don't get any easy games on the way to the final, but they still got to the semi's and held their own.

You don't have to play big teams or wallop smaller teams to earn a cup. Rarely did anyone win a cup through their 'brilliance', especially Di Matteo with Chelsea re: the Champions League.

Absolutely no such thing as a kind draw - to perceive things that way is arrogant and is what leads to PL teams getting smash by League Two sides