Transfer Forums - suggestions and feedback

[yanno]

I think the moderation can become a little awkward at times, through no individual's fault. I think it sometimes spoils the best football forum on the net.

I completely accept that it's a difficult job and I certainly wouldn't want to do it, and most of the time it is exceptionally well implemented. I congratulate the moderators and thank them for doing a job, voluntarily, that most of us wouldn't and couldn't do for money. Their hard work enables us to enjoy the forum, and it is appreciated. And I also accept that it's up to us to understand and abide by the rules, and no one else can be blamed for our own mistakes.

Nevertheless it is not beyond improvement, both for the good of the forum members as a whole and for the sake of the mods themselves who often appear to spend more time explaining and warning people about the rules than they do enjoying the forum, which must be wrong. The fact that there are so many transgressions of the ITK rules suggests that something in the rules themselves isn't quite right.

For example, I felt slightly aggrieved when I made the only post I've ever put in the ITK discussion thread, only to receive an immediate ban, presumably because it was a (positive and mild) reply to a point about Spurs' general transfer policy rather than a response to one specific piece of ITK. I can live with that, it was my error, but since we're being asked for opinions, it does strike me that such a level of intense scrutiny of individual posts and lack of discretion must be exhausting for everyone, and when people who otherwise never have the slightest issue with the moderators or the rules struggle to comply in the way they do in the ITK forum, it's almost certainly a sign of a weakness in that specific set of rules.

I do wish that as a community we could be one degree more accommodating and friendly between ourselves about how the rules are formulated and applied. Or provide an ITK-related thread where a bit of civil digression can be tolerated. Or if that isn't what the moderators feel comfortable with, can we consider whether the rules themselves are perfectly ideal ? It's clearly a major job moderating the forum, particularly during the transfer window, and for many people it's a job interpreting the rules in the heat of the debate, as the comments frequently make clear, and it really shouldn't be so fraught for both the moderators and for the community. Should it? It's only football chat in the end.

I agree. Many of the mods seemed to have a pretty miserable task, perhaps made more onerous by an uber strict application of the rules one day and then a merry dance free for all, sometimes initiated by a mod's post, the next day.

Without second guessing or judging the reasons for bans, I missed the presence of members such as @Led's Zeppelin and @Bus-Conductor from the Transfer Forum, because their contributions add to the site's entertainment and increase the community's brain size.

Against that, the number of one line disposable posts, or endless attempts at banter, can be wearying in the ITK thread, leading to too much noise, and not enough content.

It's a tough task, and any rule can have unintended consequences. A lot of it comes down to self-discipline from posters. For instance, I generally posted in the player thread unless I thought there was a clear reason for posting in the ITK thread.

But I would be wary of having too many rules because some members will inevitably and often casually flout them raising the blood pressure of SC mods to dangerous levels...

 

[dontcallme]

The ITK Discussion Thread is for discussing ITK.

I'm not sure how we make it any simpler than that?

Of course discussing our general transfer policy isn't allowed in there. Nor fomations/tactics. Noe who you think we should sign. Nor the other million things that aren't discussing the ITK.

It's not that the rules are confusing or hidden. It's that they're ignored. Do we change the rules to something else because people ignore them as they are?

All fair points. I go to the ITK thread to find out what the ITKs are saying and people's interpretations of them.

But the fact remains that people get into general transfer discussion in the ITK thread largely because there is nowhere else to do so.

Having an ITK thread and discussions on individual players only is too restrictive in my view.

If we're discussing for example Barkley in the Barkley thread and someone says they'd rather sign Mahrez it doesn't take long for the discussion to become about Mahrez.

Essentually it is spam but as there is nowhere else to discuss transfers in general this occurs, a lot.

So for me there has to be a general transfer discussion thread or the quality threads like daily ITK get spammed.

 

[Led's Zeppelin]

The ITK Discussion Thread is for discussing ITK.

I'm not sure how we make it any simpler than that?

Of course discussing our general transfer policy isn't allowed in there. Nor fomations/tactics. Noe who you think we should sign. Nor the other million things that aren't discussing the ITK.

It's not that the rules are confusing or hidden. It's that they're ignored. Do we change the rules to something else because people ignore them as they are?

No.

But is it really necessary or helpful to ban people without warning or explanation for one isolated error?

And there's another conversation to be had about what constitutes an acceptable discussion about ITK. It's not always quite as clear cut as you imply in your examples.

 

[Rob]

No.

But is it really necessary or helpful to ban people without warning or explanation for one isolated error?

And there's another conversation to be had about what constitutes an acceptable discussion about ITK. It's not always quite as clear cut as you imply in your examples.

One isolated error multiplied by several thousand people making that error isn't "small" any more though.

 

[Led's Zeppelin]

One isolated error multiplied by several thousand people making that error isn't "small" any more though.

Why do thousands of people make the same error?

Any rule that is so easy to trip over may well be in need of refinement.

 

[Rob]

Why do thousands of people make the same error?

Any rule that is so easy to trip over may well be in need of refinement.

Because they individually want something different and think they don't need to follow the rules.

We've done this for a decade now and we've tried different approaches.

Person A might prefer a certain approach, Person B might prefer a different approach, etc. We've got the right approach that satisfies the most people and allows things to work well without descending into chaos.

 

[dontcallme]

Because they individually want something different and think they don't need to follow the rules.

We've done this for a decade now and we've tried different approaches.

Person A might prefer a certain approach, Person B might prefer a different approach, etc. We've got the right approach that satisfies the most people and allows things to work well without descending into chaos.

The ITK thread is important as I;m sure it attracts a lot of people to the site and gives us information from a different source to the media whose focus is mostly on hits over information.

What is telling though is in the Help Forum there are people asking why they've been banned. A phrase they use a lot is "I got banned for discussing transfers in the transfer thread."

Of course the ITK thread isn't the transfer thread but think people are surprised there isn't one.

 

[Rob]

A phrase they use a lot is "I got banned for discussing transfers in the transfer thread."

Find me 5 examples of someone saying that...

 

[Rob]

I accept that we're maybe giving people too much credit and might need to include the rules in every new daily thread to be clear but they're not complicated!

 

[Led's Zeppelin]

I accept that we're maybe giving people too much credit and might need to include the rules in every new daily thread to be clear but they're not complicated!

No, I think you're giving people not enough credit.

You're assuming they don't know the rules, or don't understand them, or are deliberately ignoring them.

My guess is that most people are simply involved in a conversation. They are talking about a subject they care about. Occasionally it strays. That's all.

 

[dontcallme]

Find me 5 examples of someone saying that...

Levinyl was saying a variation is this thread.BaFa94 also got banned believing he was discussing something valid. - http://spurscommunity.co.uk/index.php?threads/removed-from-transfer-thread.129765/

African something or other got banned for discussing Dembele is the Sanchez thread.

http://spurscommunity.co.uk/index.php?threads/access-to-the-transfer-forum.127237/page-6 - numerous people got banned for posting in the wrong threads.

For me this points to a need for a general transfer discussion section.

Fans love discussing players they want regardless of whether an ITK or newspaper has linked us. I just think there ashould be a place to do so.

Other than that the site has been fantastic this window.

 

[yanno]

I accept that we're maybe giving people too much credit and might need to include the rules in every new daily thread to be clear but they're not complicated!

A sticky may be a good idea, but in fairness to A&C he often started the new daily ITK thread with a clear statement of what was and wasn't permissible, only for his guidance to be immediately ignored by half a dozen posters.

Fundamentally, people see a post and sometimes decide "I want to respond to this" without thinking "I'm in the ITK thread and we shouldn't be talking about subject x here". I know because I've done it, and I'm pretty sure that posters such as BC do exactly the same.

The end result is that certain posters are banned and the overall level of SC dialogue is diminished.

@Rob I have huge sympathy for you and the mods, and genuine respect for your efforts. But once you have rules, you have to enforce them or chaos & anarchy is unleashed and blood pressure goes through the roof.

Without turning SC into the American penal system, perhaps a public 3 strikes and you're out rule, where a poster is told publicly in the ITK thread what they've done wrong, so all other posters can see what the error was, might lead to a little more discipline. And at least we wouldn't have members being banned for first transgressions (if that has happened) and anyone who did get banned would have only their own ill discipline to blame.

 

[Led's Zeppelin]

The point is that if I and probably most people who might get banned (if you are correct that the problem is several thousand people making one-off errors as mine was) got an automated message saying "this is off-topic", we'd say "Oh yes, sorry" and that's it, problem solved. And most of us would make very sure we were more careful in future., which is presumably the object of the exercise.

Those who are disruptive and persist, yes, they are a problem. Deal with them differently. I don't think there's any dissent about that.

But banning everyone indiscriminately doesn't feel like a good solution to me.

 

[npearl4spurs]

Love the highlighted posts from verified ITKs in the Transfer forum and the post warning bar. Brilliant ideas!

 

[dontcallme]

The point is that if I and probably most people who might get banned (if you are correct that the problem is several thousand people making one-off errors) got an automated message saying "this is off-topic", we'd say "Oh yes, sorry" and that's it, problem solved.

Those who are disruptive and persist, yes, they are a problem. Deal with them differently. I don't think there's any dissent about that.

But banning everyone indiscriminately doesn't feel like a good solution to me.

While I broadly agree essentially doing this is a huge amount of work for the Mods.

Sites should mostly be self-regulating. People generally know what is and isn't acceptable.

Abuse, spamming etc results in bans to most forums, epople generally know this regardless of whether they are new or not.

But the amount of people getting banned from the transfer forum suggests something is not right. While people are stupid they also believed they were posting sometihng relevant. They just need a forum to post away from the ITK.

 

[Led's Zeppelin]

While I broadly agree essentially doing this is a huge amount of work for the Mods.

Sites should mostly be self-regulating. People generally know what is and isn't acceptable.

Abuse, spamming etc results in bans to most forums, epople generally know this regardless of whether they are new or not.

But the amount of people getting banned from the transfer forum suggests something is not right. While people are stupid they also believed they were posting sometihng relevant. They just need a forum to post away from the ITK.

Agree wholeheartedly, except that a standardised "Off Topic" warning ( or even an icon, like the eyeball) wouldn't take any more time than implementing a ban would it? And it would almost certainly be more productive and conducive to pertinent conversation.

 

[Rob]

The point is that if I and probably most people who might get banned (if you are correct that the problem is several thousand people making one-off errors as mine was) got an automated message saying "this is off-topic", we'd say "Oh yes, sorry" and that's it, problem solved. And most of us would make very sure we were more careful in future., which is presumably the object of the exercise.

Those who are disruptive and persist, yes, they are a problem. Deal with them differently. I don't think there's any dissent about that.

But banning everyone indiscriminately doesn't feel like a good solution to me.

No one gets banned from a one off first indiscretion unless it's ridiculous.

For example, if A&C has just spent half an hour cleaning up the thread, posts a big warning for everyone to follow the rules and the next 5 posts then break the rules. Those 5 people are getting banned. Yeah someone might be unlucky and get lumped in with everyone else there but frankly tough. The alternative would be to go and check the history for those 5 uses, find out what their record is and then deal with them individually. That's not practical as by the time that's happened there's something else to deal with.

If the unlucky guy mentioned above had made the same post in the middle of the thread which is otherwise on topic, he'd have got a quick message or reply to stay on topic and not do it again and that would have been it.

 

[Rob]

Agree wholeheartedly, except that a standardised "Off Topic" warning ( or even an icon, like the eyeball) wouldn't take any more time than implementing a ban would it? And it would almost certainly be more productive and conducive to pertinent conversation.

We have a "Watch It" warning icon that only the mods can use. We also have the Spam rating that we encourage others to use. It just gets ignored.

 

[Living Legend Colm G]

Just on the banning thing @Rob

I do feel like there needs to be more consistency with the rules. I pretty much try to avoid posting in the daily thread theses days because I'm terrified of losing access for making the mistake of getting the time wrong.

For example a couple of years ago on deadline day I made a simple reference to one of the SSN girls cheering us up.......next thing I was banned for the rest of the day. But this year there were numerous bits of banter about the same subject, including from mods themselves.

I agree that I probably shouldn't have been discussing that in the daily ITK thread so my bad, but I do feel sometimes that more well known posters maybe get a tad more leniency as their posts are 'banter' where certain others are seen as 'spam'. As I say, it's like how we all call for referees to be more consistent

Other than that, as I mentioned in a post the other night, I think you all do a magnificent job and make this one of the best sites on the web. Also some cracking ideas already mentioned in here for future windows

 

[Led's Zeppelin]

We have a "Watch It" warning icon that only the mods can use. We also have the Spam rating that we encourage others to use. It just gets ignored.

Are you able to create new icons? I don't know how it works.

The spam icons are widely abused right across the forum so I'm not surprised they frequently get ignored, though it would have been helpful in my case. Or maybe use the "Watch it" icon before banning someone, which I believe is the usual practice in other parts of the site.

If there were a dedicated equivalent for the ITK forum, or a systematic use of the "watch it", I do think people who make genuinely innocent mistakes would take notice and it would have a positive effect and reduce the amount of spam whilst not discouraging relevant conversation, which must be the objective.