Trying to understand our last minute frailty...

2bearis2do

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Thread starter #1
It's doing my head in big time - So lets analyze the facts:

Newc Away
1-1 Concede in 80th minute. (VdV makes sub in 68th & 85th) 1 point dropped.
WBA Home
1-0 Concede in 90+ (3 subs made when 1-0 up with 20 to go) 2 points dropped.
Norwich Home
1-0 Concede in 85th minute (AVB making sub in 81st) 2 points dropped.
Man Utd away Win 3-2
(held on for dear life for final 10mins AVB making 2 subs in that time) 2 points gained
Chelski home
2-1 up (AVB subs on 67th and 90th) We concede on 67, 69 and 90th 0 points dropped (they were better than us)
Man City Away
1-1 Concede in 88th (AVB 3 subs made 78, 80, 87th) 1 point dropped.
Everton Away
1-0 Concede in 90th and 92nd (AVB subs in 71 and 77) 3 points dropped

Hard to make sense of it - Suffice to say the following:
1) We've conceded 7 goals with 10 minutes to go.
2) We've dropped a good 9 points in that time and gained no points with goals scored with 10minutes to go.
3) We'd be sitting second with an extra 9 points in the bag.
4) AVB's subs are inevitably negative - they surrender the initiative, they invite pressure and more importantly he makes so many with 20minutes to go, any flow we had in the game is lost when new players get introduced - unless of course we're trying to gain the initiative and grab a goal (which just hasn't happened this season) I'd also suggest that keeping players on who have fought hard to gain the advantage - usually means these players have a grip on the game - the newcomers are thrown into the fray with 20 to go are never up to speed with the pace of the game or the shape of the game or who indeed they should be marking, tracking etc

I'd conclude:
AVB's Tactics when ahead have been absolute crap.

I'd also add - Gallas has played the full 90minutes in all the above games - old, slow and tired he drops deeper and deeper sucking the more inexperienced back with him.

So - with absolute authority - I conclude AVB and Gallas are to blame. And it's doing my head in. These tactics have worked once for us v Man UTd - when we held on...just.

Surely Mr AVB with all your stats and analysis - you can see we're simply conceding the initiative and inviting teams onto us with 20minutes to go - this is not the way forward and nor, more importantly is it the Tottenham way.
 

rupert miller

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#2
This is rather stupid, i imagine AVB did subs when weve won all our games too, so this is highly misleading. Try blaming weak minded players, not the manager
 

2bearis2do

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Thread starter #4
Evening Mr Miller - I will look into the subs used when we're ahead...and will get back to you.
As for Gallas - He wasn't the only fit centre back in at least half of those games.
I'd rather have Verts in the middle if availability allowed - which it has on some of these occasions
 
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#5
Such is our poor late game state of mind; if matches lasted 80min then we'd be on 34pts and sitting 2nd in the league.

But they last 90min+ and we find ourselves on 26pts off 12th place.

The December run-in becomes more crucial than ever...
 

rupert miller

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#6
Evening Mr Miller - I will look into the subs used when we're ahead...and will get back to you.
As for Gallas - He wasn't the only fit centre back in at least half of those games.
I'd rather have Verts in the middle if availability allowed - which it has on some of these occasions
But then we have a shocking right footed Naugton at left back who no doubt would have caused problems for our defense too. Im with you in that Gallas is shocking and i too was gutted he was in our team today, but we have Daws and Kaboul out and no cover for Benny. AVBs hands are tired really.
 

rupert miller

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#7
Such is our poor late game state of mind; if matches lasted 80min then we'd be on 34pts and sitting 2nd in the league.

But they last 90min+ and we find ourselves on 26pts off 12th place.

The December run-in becomes more crucial than ever...
26th points off 12th? we must be doing alright then!
and a December run-in to what? new year?
 

2bearis2do

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Thread starter #8
OK
Villa 2-0 up (Subs made 62,82,86)
QPR 2-1 up (Subs on 88 and 90)
Soton 2-0 (Subs 63mins - concede on 66mins) Then 2 more subs on 78 and 90
West Ham 3-0 up (Subs in 79th Conceded in 82) Then 2 more subs in 88th and 90
Liverpool 2-1 up (1 sub in 88th)
Fulham 3-0 up (1 Sub in 84th)

What becomes interesting looking at it from both sides (and thank you for that perspective)
Is that on at least 6 occasions we've conceded a goal within 4 minutes of an AVB substitution. This illuminates my point about upsetting the flow of the game and bringing on players who are not up to speed with the flow or pattern of the game - there are just too many instances for it to be coincidence.
 

2bearis2do

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Thread starter #9
But then we have a shocking right footed Naugton at left back who no doubt would have caused problems for our defense too. Im with you in that Gallas is shocking and i too was gutted he was in our team today, but we have Daws and Kaboul out and no cover for Benny. AVBs hands are tired really.
I'm sure his hands are tired! ;-)

Personally - it just appears to me that when we are 1-0 up we're not going for the second goal - and his substitutions reflect that. And I think it's a recurring problem and it lies at AVB's door. What is he saying to the oncoming players?! What's his instruction? Coz it ain't working and happens far too often for it to be coincidence.
 

rupert miller

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#10
I'm sure his hands are tired! ;-)

Personally - it just appears to me that when we are 1-0 up we're not going for the second goal - and his substitutions reflect that. And I think it's a recurring problem and it lies at AVB's door. What is he saying to the oncoming players?! What's his instruction? Coz it ain't working and happens far too often for it to be coincidence.
Were his Subs today that defensive? i think he has done and learnt from mistakes so far this season, but Gilfi and Falque coming on is hardly bringing on 2 defense minded players
 

Gaz_Gammon

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#11
Try blaming weak minded players, not the manager

Spurs have finished 4/5/4 with the same "weak minded players". That understood the issue of conceding late goals would point to the common denominator of the above article. That of the Manager.

I am not knocking the writer of the above article but i have read on the match day thread (rightly or wrongly):

Out of our 31 goals conceded in all comps we've let in 12 of them in the last 10 minutes, 10 in the league and 2 against Norwich in the league cup. So pretty much a 3rd of our goals conceded are very late in games and to concede 10 late goals in 16 league matches is pretty shit.
You can also i guess, take into consideration the quality of the opposition Spurs were up against, but we have played in my opinion potential PL winners and perennial sewer dwellers and teams in-between. I'd like to say that some of our squad are not good enough but in general those same players were praised after the wins at Man Ure, Fulham and Reading so there's three examples of three different quality sides that we have played and won.

I think the problem lies beyond the character and make-up of the current squad and is not down to individual players. Eleven players do not suddenly decide to defend for their life's once taking a lead by one goal. They should in many cases press for a second goal other than taking a goal lead with minutes left in the game or a minute or so before half time.

Spurs this season have on many occasions just sat back and defended single goal leads as explained in he above article. I haven't seen this from a Spurs side under any previous manager though Graham did sometimes flood midfield in similar (but at the later stages of games). I don't know at what point of a game AVB think's differently when Spurs are in front and what he see's that makes him add additional defensive players but it's plain for everyone to see that it's failing totally and without exception (aside from at Old Trafford).

Inviting pressure onto the back four is all well and good, but we do not have the players, system or character to do so for long periods. This is so evident that it is a fast becoming a joke, repetitive and defeatist in the extreme. The positives from this season so far in the way Spurs play are insignificant putting the Old Trafford result to one side, and it seems that when we come up against a side equal or one perceived to be a potential top four finisher Spurs are well and truly second best and the Manager sets Spurs out to play that way when we are lucky enough to take a lead.

I cannot see where the players should get a pasting for playing how the Manager wants them to, but i can see that many believe that the return of Bennie, Parker and Kabul will turn our play around. This i just don't see.
 

JC-Rule

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#12
What ever his thinking is, the fact are that we have thrown away leads far too often.

A key factor in the year we qualified for champions league. Is the way we battled and held on.

Soft under belly Spurs has returned.

Scott Parker's return is well needed as is BAE and Kaboul.
 

marion52

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#13
We hardly if ever play the same back 4 due to injury.
Sometimes subs are made because the player going off is exhausted (Dembele today for example) so would not be much use and may get injured.
The players have to concentrate more in the last minutes amd make more effort to hold onto the ball, this may be partly due to AVB and partly the players.
Let's hope now we have a mid week rest and injured players are returning this problem can be sorted.
 

rupert miller

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#14
What ever his thinking is, the fact are that we have thrown away leads far too often.

A key factor in the year we qualified for champions league. Is the way we battled and held on.

Soft under belly Sours has returned.

Scott Parker's return is well needed as is BAE and Kaboul.
Agreed, and its not too late to fix it. Those 3 players and one in in Jan and you change the team. What we have to do now is pick up points. I think we could win the next 4 games. We have played the toughest away games this year so far and we have a good chance after Jan to pick up points at home. Remember we have a new manager, new ideas, and we are where we want to be in imgaine
 

punky

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#15
I wonder if it's a lack of fitness that's the real issue?

Last season players said our training consisted of mainly fitness exercises than ball work.

This season the opposite is now true but almost all our performances are lethargic compared with last season's standards and it's been exasperated with strong line-ups in the Europa League.
 

Maske2g

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#16
So don't ever make any subs? Probably the most retarded thing I've ever seen said on the front page.


Our problem is, with the injuries we have and the players we sold, we have a load of shit on the bench every week.
 

UbeAstard

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#17
............ almost all our performances are lethargic compared with last season's standards and it's been exasperated with strong line-ups in the Europa League.
I dont think we were lethargic at all. I thought it was an enthralling, entertaining and fascinating game from 2 good sides. I thought we did well apart from those last few minutes when we lapsed concentration seems to have done us.
 

DreadySpur

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#18
Our problem seems to be Gallas. Possibly a simplistic view, I know, but I think he should only play as a last resort.
 

JimmyG2

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#19
Trying to do an overall, stastical analysis, on a game of football
or worse still a series of games of football is like trying to fit a condom on a trifle.
Trust me I've tried it. Don't ask.
You can't play with the same players for the whole match you neeed to employ substitutes.
Or the same players every game so you need tactical adjustments.
And if AVB tried to do either he would be hanging from a different gibbit

We hung in there well today and went ahead, luckily and possibly undeservedly.
Siggy as near as dammit made it 2-0: home and dried.
But a couple of lapses possibly as we tired led to to Everton nicking it.
If Caulker lets Lloris pick the ball up we're nicely sorted.
No need for wrist slitting or even theorising on the role of AVB.
He was unlucky today as the match played out and let down by poor performances from too many players.
(Adebayor, Defoe, Gallas, Caulker, possibly Lennon, Walker and Dembele )
Blaming the substitutions or the substitutes is misguided.

We were away, they played better than us, we nearly won it, Swansea up next.
 

Mattspur

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#20
This is a problem which has continued from last season. Last season, from memory, we only scored 1 goal all season (stoke at home) in the last 10 minutes which won us points. This season we are letting in a lot of goals in the last 10 but still not scoring. Either way, the last 10 minutes of games cause us real problems, and have for a while. AVB needs to correct this problem but I fear problems of mentality take far longer to solve than tactical problems.
 
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