Trying to understand our last minute frailty...

stemark44

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
6,598
#21
I have to totally agree with the original post.
AVB is a manager in the mould of Ranieri and Benitez,a man who tinkers and simply can't leave well alone.
A manager who totally believes that we only win BECAUSE of him and his tactics when in reality,we win IN SPITE of him.
 

punky

ONE MICHAEL DAWSON!
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
Messages
6,478
#22
I dont think we were lethargic at all. I thought it was an enthralling, entertaining and fascinating game from 2 good sides. I thought we did well apart from those last few minutes when we lapsed concentration seems to have done us.
Well in more recent games the tempo has been improved slightly but how early games were lethargic.

Even taking your point at face value - losing concentration after a sustained period of activity is almost always down to tiredness - ergo lack of fitness.
 

Greenspur

Very old member
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
2,681
#23
So many saying, "we need to improve our concentration in the last 10 minutes". Do you really think that players say to themselves, "OK, it's won now. Only 10 minutes to go, so I don't need to concentrate any more"?

It is clearly a mixture of panic and tiredness. After a succession of such incidents ( like 8 or 9 matches where late goals are conceded) the panic gets worse. This is then exacerbated by the tiredness. Furthermore, the longer you are under pressure the tireder you get.

The whole thing is a vicious, never- ending psychological circle. How to end it ....I haven't a clue. But I do believe that, if we hold out a couple of times, and score a few late goals, all will be well.

It's not the first (nor probably last) year I've seen Spurs panic near the end of matches.
 

2bearis2do

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Messages
3,820
Thread starter #24
Trying to do an overall, stastical analysis, on a game of football
or worse still a series of games of football is like trying to fit a condom on a trifle.
Trust me I've tried it. Don't ask.
You can't play with the same players for the whole match you neeed to employ substitutes.
Or the same players every game so you need tactical adjustments.
And if AVB tried to do either he would be hanging from a different gibbit

We hung in there well today and went ahead, luckily and possibly undeservedly.
Siggy as near as dammit made it 2-0: home and dried.
But a couple of lapses possibly as we tired led to to Everton nicking it.
If Caulker lets Lloris pick the ball up we're nicely sorted.
No need for wrist slitting or even theorising on the role of AVB.
He was unlucky today as the match played out and let down by poor performances from too many players.
(Adebayor, Defoe, Gallas, Caulker, possibly Lennon, Walker and Dembele )
Blaming the substitutions or the substitutes is misguided.

We were away, they played better than us, we nearly won it, Swansea up next.
All very true JG" - The idea of the post being to open it up as a discussion - because they are in fact, ridiculous footballing stats, unequalled by any other football club...an anomaly?

Oddly, I´m not a stat fan.

But - I would also argue that conceding at least 6 league goals within 4 minutes of a substitution and conceding almost 50% of our league goals in the last 10 minutes of a game...would indicate a concern-able pattern - and can't be put down to just one of dem days or their goalie having a blinder.
 

JimmyG2

SC Supporter
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Messages
7,260
#25
All very true JG" - The idea of the post being to open it up as a discussion - because they are in fact, ridiculous footballing stats, unequalled by any other football club...an anomaly?

Oddly, I´m not a stat fan.

But - I would also argue that conceding at least 6 league goals within 4 minutes of a substitution and conceding almost 50% of our league goals in the last 10 minutes of a game...would indicate a concern-able pattern - and can't be put down to just one of dem days or their goalie having a blinder.
I understand what you are saying; we have here some statistics about conceding goals
that deviate wildly from what you would normally expect
and which seem to apply particularly to THFC
Throw in the one about if games lasted 8o minutes we would be top
and you have a situation that must have an explaination.
It must indicate something, there must be an underlying cause.

Is it the Manager's poor tactical judgement in the way we play when we go ahead
or the way we play in the final stages of games..
Is it tiredness through overplaying, or lack of proper fitness training.
Is it the return of our old friend lack of mental strength.
I could go on; Is it all the above or none of the above
which I agree makes for an interesting discussion
as long as you don't expect our collective intelligence to be able to solve it.

Study their goals yesterday and you will find a whole range of factors including
an individual mistake; a failure to press out of the area; slack marking for the throw in,
a fortunate centre probably aimed at Fellaini brilliantly headed in by Piennar
which Lloris might have saved, a lucky overhead kick and an instinctive toe prod.
It could have happened at any stage of the game
but defending too deeply was certainly an important element which might apply
to the last ten minute syndrome.
I just don't know and I don't know whether there is an answer.
More I don't even know whether there is a in fact a problem
although I can see why you think there might be,.
 

2bearis2do

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Messages
3,820
Thread starter #26
Great post JG2 - If it continues like this for the rest of the season - then I think I'll go mad!
 

Chris_D

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
2,614
#27
I think I heard somewhere if all games ended at 80 minutes we'd be top of the league! One problem is teams hump it long when they're desperate for a goal and we sit deep in defence and don't deal with this well. I didn't see yesterday's game and I'm wary of commenting based on what I saw on Match of the Day. I think we missed Bale and Everton are a decent team let's not forget that so a win up there without our best player would have been wonderful but not to be alas.
 

Chris_D

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
2,614
#28
Our problem seems to be Gallas. Possibly a simplistic view, I know, but I think he should only play as a last resort.
I think that is simplistic mate. He's done OK this season and with Kaboul out injured and Verts playing at LB we don't have a lot of cover in the middle. Get two of first choice back four fit and I'm hoping the goals we concede will dry up but then I'm an optimist.
 

Gaz_Gammon

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2005
Messages
16,047
#29
Their winning goal came from a result of kids Sunday park defending. You can't call it anything else and the Manager and coaches should share the blame for this. We haven't looked solid at the back all season and those who think we have need to look at the number of clean sheets we have. The defence ain't working and no amount of our Internationally capped players appear to make a difference. Unless AVB can get them to play better, best he moves them out. Sunday's result was a fucking embarisment of the highest order and he should be ashamed of the result and general performance.
 

JimmyG2

SC Supporter
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Messages
7,260
#30
Their winning goal came from a result of kids Sunday park defending. You can't call it anything else and the Manager and coaches should share the blame for this. We haven't looked solid at the back all season and those who think we have need to look at the number of clean sheets we have. The defence ain't working and no amount of our Internationally capped players appear to make a difference. Unless AVB can get them to play better, best he moves them out. Sunday's result was a fucking embarisment of the highest order and he should be ashamed of the result and general performance.
Gaz, Gaz them Sunday Park kids are doing their best.
Unfair comparisons will not help them improve.
Give them a break
 

Gaz_Gammon

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2005
Messages
16,047
#31
Give them a break
I bet their wiping the tears from their eyes with 20 quid notes..........poor things.


I really don't care what it takes, but AVB simply has to recognise that the number of combinations tried in defence this season has fallen well short and there is (in my humble opinion) been no evident improvement. Kabul and Bennie alone will not make the difference and i would certainly sell Dawson or Gallas and bring in another center half. If Caulker is still in learning mode then let him learn at another club for a loan period. The mistakes he's making may as well cost another club and not ours. He's had time at Swansea and PL experience so it's not as if this is his first season at this level. Cold, calculated decisions are required for improvement and not some soft mothering and hand wringing, while looking for divine intervention.
 

JimmyG2

SC Supporter
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Messages
7,260
#32
I bet their wiping the tears from their eyes with 20 quid notes..........poor things.


I really don't care what it takes, but AVB simply has to recognise that the number of combinations tried in defence this season has fallen well short and there is (in my humble opinion) been no evident improvement. Kabul and Bennie alone will not make the difference and i would certainly sell Dawson or Gallas and bring in another center half. If Caulker is still in learning mode then let him learn at another club for a loan period. The mistakes he's making may as well cost another club and not ours. He's had time at Swansea and PL experience so it's not as if this is his first season at this level. Cold, calculated decisions are required for improvement and not some soft mothering and hand wringing, while looking for divine intervention.
The kids in the park I meant.
You won't get much for Gallas. Didn't we get him on free? Still Daniel can dream.
Harry might want him to partner Nelsen.
Dawson is decent back up fo Kaboul and Vertonghen and Caulker hasn't made too many mistakes.
Unfortunately he's been punished for the ones he has made where others have got away with them.
 

Spurs1960

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2011
Messages
2,424
#33
It's pretty simple to understand. We take off forward outlets so the ball comes back quickly. We bring on defensive players meaning we change tactics, stop playing with a high line and just defend our own box. We panic, Caulker has twice at least and given away 2 goals and we don't haven't had Parker coming on for the final 15 minutes fire-fighting, the role he excels in.

The best way to stop the opposition is keep the ball but with 7 defensive players plus a goalkeeper and no pace on the pitch (he takes our pace players off) we can't punish opposition over attacking.

We are the only team in the Premier League not to score in the last 10 minutes, 79 minutes being our only late goal just recently.
 
Top