Trying to understand our last minute frailty...

Discussion in 'Columns' started by 2bearis2do, Dec 9, 2012.

  • by 2bearis2do, Dec 9, 2012 at 5:59 PM
  • 2bearis2do

    2bearis2do Well-Known Member

    Ratings Received:
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    It's doing my head in big time - So lets analyze the facts:

    Newc Away
    1-1 Concede in 80th minute. (VdV makes sub in 68th & 85th) 1 point dropped.
    WBA Home
    1-0 Concede in 90+ (3 subs made when 1-0 up with 20 to go) 2 points dropped.
    Norwich Home
    1-0 Concede in 85th minute (AVB making sub in 81st) 2 points dropped.
    Man Utd away Win 3-2
    (held on for dear life for final 10mins AVB making 2 subs in that time) 2 points gained
    Chelski home
    2-1 up (AVB subs on 67th and 90th) We concede on 67, 69 and 90th 0 points dropped (they were better than us)
    Man City Away
    1-1 Concede in 88th (AVB 3 subs made 78, 80, 87th) 1 point dropped.
    Everton Away
    1-0 Concede in 90th and 92nd (AVB subs in 71 and 77) 3 points dropped

    Hard to make sense of it - Suffice to say the following:
    1) We've conceded 7 goals with 10 minutes to go.
    2) We've dropped a good 9 points in that time and gained no points with goals scored with 10minutes to go.
    3) We'd be sitting second with an extra 9 points in the bag.
    4) AVB's subs are inevitably negative - they surrender the initiative, they invite pressure and more importantly he makes so many with 20minutes to go, any flow we had in the game is lost when new players get introduced - unless of course we're trying to gain the initiative and grab a goal (which just hasn't happened this season) I'd also suggest that keeping players on who have fought hard to gain the advantage - usually means these players have a grip on the game - the newcomers are thrown into the fray with 20 to go are never up to speed with the pace of the game or the shape of the game or who indeed they should be marking, tracking etc

    I'd conclude:
    AVB's Tactics when ahead have been absolute crap.

    I'd also add - Gallas has played the full 90minutes in all the above games - old, slow and tired he drops deeper and deeper sucking the more inexperienced back with him.

    So - with absolute authority - I conclude AVB and Gallas are to blame. And it's doing my head in. These tactics have worked once for us v Man UTd - when we held on...just.

    Surely Mr AVB with all your stats and analysis - you can see we're simply conceding the initiative and inviting teams onto us with 20minutes to go - this is not the way forward and nor, more importantly is it the Tottenham way.
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Discussion in 'Columns' started by 2bearis2do, Dec 9, 2012.

  1. stemark44
    I have to totally agree with the original post.
    AVB is a manager in the mould of Ranieri and Benitez,a man who tinkers and simply can't leave well alone.
    A manager who totally believes that we only win BECAUSE of him and his tactics when in reality,we win IN SPITE of him.
  2. punky
    Well in more recent games the tempo has been improved slightly but how early games were lethargic.

    Even taking your point at face value - losing concentration after a sustained period of activity is almost always down to tiredness - ergo lack of fitness.
  3. Greenspur
    So many saying, "we need to improve our concentration in the last 10 minutes". Do you really think that players say to themselves, "OK, it's won now. Only 10 minutes to go, so I don't need to concentrate any more"?

    It is clearly a mixture of panic and tiredness. After a succession of such incidents ( like 8 or 9 matches where late goals are conceded) the panic gets worse. This is then exacerbated by the tiredness. Furthermore, the longer you are under pressure the tireder you get.

    The whole thing is a vicious, never- ending psychological circle. How to end it ....I haven't a clue. But I do believe that, if we hold out a couple of times, and score a few late goals, all will be well.

    It's not the first (nor probably last) year I've seen Spurs panic near the end of matches.
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  4. 2bearis2do
    All very true JG" - The idea of the post being to open it up as a discussion - because they are in fact, ridiculous footballing stats, unequalled by any other football anomaly?

    Oddly, I´m not a stat fan.

    But - I would also argue that conceding at least 6 league goals within 4 minutes of a substitution and conceding almost 50% of our league goals in the last 10 minutes of a game...would indicate a concern-able pattern - and can't be put down to just one of dem days or their goalie having a blinder.
  5. JimmyG2
    I understand what you are saying; we have here some statistics about conceding goals
    that deviate wildly from what you would normally expect
    and which seem to apply particularly to THFC
    Throw in the one about if games lasted 8o minutes we would be top
    and you have a situation that must have an explaination.
    It must indicate something, there must be an underlying cause.

    Is it the Manager's poor tactical judgement in the way we play when we go ahead
    or the way we play in the final stages of games..
    Is it tiredness through overplaying, or lack of proper fitness training.
    Is it the return of our old friend lack of mental strength.
    I could go on; Is it all the above or none of the above
    which I agree makes for an interesting discussion
    as long as you don't expect our collective intelligence to be able to solve it.

    Study their goals yesterday and you will find a whole range of factors including
    an individual mistake; a failure to press out of the area; slack marking for the throw in,
    a fortunate centre probably aimed at Fellaini brilliantly headed in by Piennar
    which Lloris might have saved, a lucky overhead kick and an instinctive toe prod.
    It could have happened at any stage of the game
    but defending too deeply was certainly an important element which might apply
    to the last ten minute syndrome.
    I just don't know and I don't know whether there is an answer.
    More I don't even know whether there is a in fact a problem
    although I can see why you think there might be,.
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  6. 2bearis2do
    Great post JG2 - If it continues like this for the rest of the season - then I think I'll go mad!
  7. Chris_D
    I think I heard somewhere if all games ended at 80 minutes we'd be top of the league! One problem is teams hump it long when they're desperate for a goal and we sit deep in defence and don't deal with this well. I didn't see yesterday's game and I'm wary of commenting based on what I saw on Match of the Day. I think we missed Bale and Everton are a decent team let's not forget that so a win up there without our best player would have been wonderful but not to be alas.
  8. Chris_D
    I think that is simplistic mate. He's done OK this season and with Kaboul out injured and Verts playing at LB we don't have a lot of cover in the middle. Get two of first choice back four fit and I'm hoping the goals we concede will dry up but then I'm an optimist.
  9. Gaz_Gammon
    Their winning goal came from a result of kids Sunday park defending. You can't call it anything else and the Manager and coaches should share the blame for this. We haven't looked solid at the back all season and those who think we have need to look at the number of clean sheets we have. The defence ain't working and no amount of our Internationally capped players appear to make a difference. Unless AVB can get them to play better, best he moves them out. Sunday's result was a fucking embarisment of the highest order and he should be ashamed of the result and general performance.
  10. JimmyG2
    Gaz, Gaz them Sunday Park kids are doing their best.
    Unfair comparisons will not help them improve.
    Give them a break
  11. Gaz_Gammon
    I bet their wiping the tears from their eyes with 20 quid notes..........poor things.

    I really don't care what it takes, but AVB simply has to recognise that the number of combinations tried in defence this season has fallen well short and there is (in my humble opinion) been no evident improvement. Kabul and Bennie alone will not make the difference and i would certainly sell Dawson or Gallas and bring in another center half. If Caulker is still in learning mode then let him learn at another club for a loan period. The mistakes he's making may as well cost another club and not ours. He's had time at Swansea and PL experience so it's not as if this is his first season at this level. Cold, calculated decisions are required for improvement and not some soft mothering and hand wringing, while looking for divine intervention.
  12. JimmyG2
    The kids in the park I meant.
    You won't get much for Gallas. Didn't we get him on free? Still Daniel can dream.
    Harry might want him to partner Nelsen.
    Dawson is decent back up fo Kaboul and Vertonghen and Caulker hasn't made too many mistakes.
    Unfortunately he's been punished for the ones he has made where others have got away with them.
  13. Spurs1960
    It's pretty simple to understand. We take off forward outlets so the ball comes back quickly. We bring on defensive players meaning we change tactics, stop playing with a high line and just defend our own box. We panic, Caulker has twice at least and given away 2 goals and we don't haven't had Parker coming on for the final 15 minutes fire-fighting, the role he excels in.

    The best way to stop the opposition is keep the ball but with 7 defensive players plus a goalkeeper and no pace on the pitch (he takes our pace players off) we can't punish opposition over attacking.

    We are the only team in the Premier League not to score in the last 10 minutes, 79 minutes being our only late goal just recently.

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