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Colonel_Klinck

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May 19, 2004
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#22
It's not like he's ever set a tournament alight, other than his first one. He hasn't been in great form for ManU and he's played in midfield. He's not been special in any recent England game that springs to mind either. Players should be picked on match form, what they do in training and will they work in the system, not reputation imo. I'm not saying he shouldn't start in the right system if he's showing something in training but to say he's a certainty to start is a stretch for me. He's not the best striker we have and we have better midfield players.
 

Mr.D

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Dec 2, 2014
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#23
I don't know....maybe by being England's highest ever goalscorer and captain...?
Take a peek at which teams he's scored against and how many goals were penalties
Doubt you'll see many against the top European and South American sides.
But hey, you can only score against who's put in front of you and all that.
 

THFCSPURS19

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32,726
#24
Take a peek at which teams he's scored against and how many goals were penalties
Doubt you'll see many against the top European and South American sides.
But hey, you can only score against who's put in front of you and all that.
Bobby Charlton's England goals include 3 in an 8-1 win against the USA, 3 in a 9-0 win against Luxembourg, 3 in an 8-0 win against Mexico, 3 in a 8-1 win against Switzerland. That's 1/4 of his England goals right there, and he scored 1 or 2 goals in many other big wins against teams. It's the same for all of England's top goal scores, and it was a fantastic achievement for Rooney to top the charts.

That's not meant to be disrespectful to Charlton though- just pointing out that it's wrong to assume it's just Rooney who has scored a lot of goals against smaller teams.

Anyways, Rooney has scored against Switzerland, Argentina, Netherlands, Croatia, Ukraine, Brazil, Poland, Uruguay and France. All good teams.
 

goughie1966

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Aug 28, 2008
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#25
Bobby Charlton's England goals include 3 in an 8-1 win against the USA, 3 in a 9-0 win against Luxembourg, 3 in an 8-0 win against Mexico, 3 in a 8-1 win against Switzerland. That's 1/4 of his England goals right there, and he scored 1 or 2 goals in many other big wins against teams. It's the same for all of England's top goal scores, and it was a fantastic achievement for Rooney to top the charts.

That's not meant to be disrespectful to Charlton though- just pointing out that it's wrong to assume it's just Rooney who has scored a lot of goals against smaller teams.

Anyways, Rooney has scored against Switzerland, Argentina, Netherlands, Croatia, Ukraine, Brazil, Poland, Uruguay and France. All good teams.
He has an appalling scoring record for England and you can cherry pick the stats as much as you want but the fact remains his record in tournaments and against the big teams has been abysmal. It ain't going to change in this tournament either.

I don't class goals against Switzerland, Croatia, Ukraine and Poland as anything to shout about either. You also omitted the fact the goals against the bigger international sides were all friendlies apart from Uruguay(which was his first goal in 3 WC finals).

You know Bobby Charlton was scoring those goals from midfield, wearing shite boots, playing on dreadful surfaces and kicking a ball that weighed a ton. He's scored twice as many in tournament football than Rooney. Charlton was playing in an era where they didn't have dozens of qualifiers against mickey mouse sides to rack up his goal tally either.

The history books will of course show that Rooney is our highest goalscorer at international level. But also he's right at the bottom for tournament goals. Fingers crossed he can improve on that in this tournament but I won't hold my breath.
 

longtimespur

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Sep 10, 2014
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3,660
#26
Why can he give Rooney a shoe-in when iirc he wasn't playing when we played Germany recently and that was the best I've seen England play for years.
As for goals scored for England nobody will equal Jimmy Greaves' record
 

THFCSPURS19

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#27
He has an appalling scoring record for England and you can cherry pick the stats as much as you want but the fact remains his record in tournaments and against the big teams has been abysmal. It ain't going to change in this tournament either.

I don't class goals against Switzerland, Croatia, Ukraine and Poland as anything to shout about either. You also omitted the fact the goals against the bigger international sides were all friendlies apart from Uruguay(which was his first goal in 3 WC finals).

You know Bobby Charlton was scoring those goals from midfield, wearing shite boots, playing on dreadful surfaces and kicking a ball that weighed a ton. He's scored twice as many in tournament football than Rooney. Charlton was playing in an era where they didn't have dozens of qualifiers against mickey mouse sides to rack up his goal tally either.

The history books will of course show that Rooney is our highest goalscorer at international level. But also he's right at the bottom for tournament goals. Fingers crossed he can improve on that in this tournament but I won't hold my breath.
The main thing I took issue with is Colonel_Klinck asking 'what Rooney had done' to be a starter. Being the highest scorer of any top international side is an amazing achievement, regardless of where and when the goals came. That is fact.
 
Joined
Feb 27, 2005
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6,227
#28
The main thing I took issue with is Colonel_Klinck asking 'what Rooney had done' to be a starter. Being the highest scorer of any top international side is an amazing achievement, regardless of where and when the goals came. That is fact.
Presumably, before Rooney was the record scorer, Charlton should have been starting. :p

In all seriousness, Rooney has done nothing to deserve to be an England starter for a couple of years now, and lining the team up to shoehorn in a poorly-performing star is exactly where England go wrong at almost every tournament for the last decade or so.

The only reason i'd even take him to the Euros is the injuries to Sturridge and Welbeck.
 

chinaman

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Jul 19, 2003
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15,906
#29
Why can he give Rooney a shoe-in when iirc he wasn't playing when we played Germany recently and that was the best I've seen England play for years.
As for goals scored for England nobody will equal Jimmy Greaves' record

But both Charlton and Rooney have gone past him.
 

Flynn

SC Supporter
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Sep 2, 2004
Messages
1,776
#30
Rooney plays because all the sponsors (who know fuck all about football but he's the only one the marketing department has heard of) have got him fronting their campaigns. Nevermind the embassesment that most of us feel of him being put on a pedestal besides other nations truly great players.
 

WorcesterTHFC

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May 4, 2016
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1,183
#33
But both Charlton and Rooney have gone past him.
So has Lineker, but if you look at England's all-time top 20 goal scorers, only Steve Bloomer, Nat Lofthouse and Tommy Lawton have superior records in terms of games per goal. Those three, especially Bloomer (over 100 years ago), played when the game was a lot different from the way it is now. In those terms, we'll probably never see another Greaves-type player for the Three Lions.
 
Joined
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#34
It's not like he's ever set a tournament alight, other than his first one. He hasn't been in great form for ManU and he's played in midfield. He's not been special in any recent England game that springs to mind either. Players should be picked on match form, what they do in training and will they work in the system, not reputation imo. I'm not saying he shouldn't start in the right system if he's showing something in training but to say he's a certainty to start is a stretch for me. He's not the best striker we have and we have better midfield players.
Looking at it from Hodgson's perspective though, whatever team he sends out will be very short on caps. Practically Rooney and Hart are the only players with more than a smattering of them. It's all very well strolling around in a friendly in Berlin, but you need experience in pressure situations - as we saw with Spurs when we imploded at the end of the season. I'm not saying I would definitely pick him if I was in charge, but I would definitely take the fact that this team is so green into consideration.
 

Colonel_Klinck

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May 19, 2004
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6,640
#35
I get that he's the most experienced player in the squad. I just fear Woy is trying to drive square pegs in round holes. An in form Rooney is a starter but he's been nothing to write home about all season. If he does play him then play him out on the left. I think it's the position he says he prefers now.
 
Joined
May 5, 2004
Messages
19,320
#36
I get that he's the most experienced player in the squad. I just fear Woy is trying to drive square pegs in round holes. An in form Rooney is a starter but he's been nothing to write home about all season. If he does play him then play him out on the left. I think it's the position he says he prefers now.
Yeah I would probably start with this:

Hart
Walker Smalling Cahill Rose
Dier Wilshere
Sterling Alli Rooney
Kane
Vardy coming off the bench when either Kane or Rooney is knackered. Going to be very hot in Marseille to start off with...
 

theShiznit

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Jul 26, 2004
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11,817
#38
Watching Belgium vs Norway and Toby and Jan are playing CB and look shocking. Really off the pace. The number 4 for Belgium has been truly awful though robbed of the ball or bumbling in possession regularly and must come off at ht. Apart from that a couple of moments from De Bruyne aside they have looked pretty disinterested.

So much talent but there seems to be an issue with the mentality of the Belgians.
 

Marty

Throbbing member
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Mar 10, 2005
Messages
18,255
#39
Watching Belgium vs Norway and Toby and Jan are playing CB and look shocking. Really off the pace. The number 4 for Belgium has been truly awful though robbed of the ball or bumbling in possession regularly and must come off at ht. Apart from that a couple of moments from De Bruyne aside they have looked pretty disinterested.

So much talent but there seems to be an issue with the mentality of the Belgians.
Yeah I'm watching too. I thought Belgium could go to semis at least this year but a couple of performances like this when it matters and they will fail spectacularly.

Though why Norway failed to turn up against Hungary in the play-offs when clearly they have a decent side, beating Iceland and now leading Belgium, beggars belief.
 

theShiznit

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Jul 26, 2004
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11,817
#40
Just had a shot of Wilmots asking one of the Subs warming up to get ready to come on. He pointed at the sub and said get ready. Then pointed again... Then a third time he was obviously asked who? he gestured "you with the hair"

And indeed it's Afro for Afro (Fellaini on for Witsel)

Dembele seems miles down the cm pecking order here.
 
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