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What the pundits & media are saying about us

spud

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2003
5,850
8,794
I'm not saying you are wrong, but I have no knowledge of any bonus promised to Freedman and reneged on by Sugar. Where did you get that from?
Like you, my information is from published material that I've read. I can't recall the exact source, but it could have been 'False Messiah', Bose's study of Venables.
 

spud

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2003
5,850
8,794
They became the games commercial giant because they kept winning everything, not because of some marketing exec, regardless of how good he was. Fergie is the absolute reason for Yanited being where they are today, everyone else was just a far smaller cog in the Manchester United machine and easily replaceable. OWF on the other hand was not.
Ferguson - like the Munich air crash - gave the club the popularity that formed the basis for commercial exploitation. Without products to sell and market placement to give them availability to the potential market, there would have been no exploitation of the on-field success and the interest it produced. Freedman was replaceable because he set up a business model that wasn't dependent on his personal involvement, but without him - or somebody like him - United would have had no more commercial success than any other Premier League Club. If he'd stayed at Spurs, United, with all of their on-field success, would possibly still be playing catch-up to us in commercial terms.
 

StartingPrice

Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip
Feb 13, 2004
32,568
10,280
They became the games commercial giant because they kept winning everything, not because of some marketing exec, regardless of how good he was. Fergie is the absolute reason for Yanited being where they are today, everyone else was just a far smaller cog in the Manchester United machine and easily replaceable. OWF on the other hand was not.

As @spud says.

No-one is denying that Fergie and the production of a winning team wasn't a major factor in their dominance.

But it was only one of many factors into their development into a commercial giant. Producing a good team which happened to coincide with BPL/CL/TV money was also a factor. Another was their growth from marketing irrelevance to a money making marketing juggernaut.

To bring up Mr Bose again, if you've never read Manchester Unlimited you would find it very informative. The Man from Tottenham, about Edward Freedman, is a whole chapter of the book. On page 188 he says:
The first day Freedman got to Old Trafford he found that, for all the hype in marketing terms, Old Traffoed just did not compare to White Hart Lane: "There as just no comparison. Tottenham were ahead of it in staff, in thinking, product, environment. Tottenham was far, far ahead."

It was only one part of a financial revolution that was parallel to the development of a successful football team. But to underplay it would be as big a mistake as to assign all of the credit to their on-field success to financial muscle at the expense of recognising the management of Ferguson and the development of the Class of 92.
 

raggy

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2015
1,178
5,223
Poch was very blunt about his future at Southampton. Before Cortese quit Pochettino was already saying he had no future at Southampton without him.

Cortese sold Poch on a project, everything was going fine but then the Saints owner decided the plan would be to sell players they didn't want to sell. Cortese quit as a result and Pochettino stayed until the end of the season and then quit like he said he would.

It annoys me when I see other fans saying "He didn't think twice about leaving Southampton" when I reckon he might still be there if Cortese had stayed.

This article from The Guardian has some very blunt quotes from Pochettino before Cortese quit for anybody that's interested: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/may/16/mauricio-pochettino-quit-southampton-nicola-cortese
 

StartingPrice

Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip
Feb 13, 2004
32,568
10,280
Poch was very blunt about his future at Southampton. Before Cortese quit Pochettino was already saying he had no future at Southampton without him.

Cortese sold Poch on a project, everything was going fine but then the Saints owner decided the plan would be to sell players they didn't want to sell. Cortese quit as a result and Pochettino stayed until the end of the season and then quit like he said he would.

It annoys me when I see other fans saying "He didn't think twice about leaving Southampton" when I reckon he might still be there if Cortese had stayed.

This article from The Guardian has some very blunt quotes from Pochettino before Cortese quit for anybody that's interested: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/may/16/mauricio-pochettino-quit-southampton-nicola-cortese

I'm with you on this one. Even when you provide them with information that is in the public domain, incontrovertible proof, you still get the same response.

The Saints fans are the most bizarre. The supporters of any other club can't wait to have a go at their chairman (heck, often they don't even need a reason), but even when it is obvious that theirs has f*cked them out of an exceptional manager who could have taken them to incredible heights, all they want to do is act as though the chairman is Snow White and Poch betrayed them in a piece of Machiavellian intrigue unknown in all the annals of human betrayal.

And then you get the he's ambitious, he'd leave any big club for any bigger club brigade. Led by that United supporting journalist numpty (is it Custis?) on SKY, gyrating around on his chair like he had a nest of Fire Ants in his pants, while chanting his mantra United are BIGGER, he'll join, he's ambitious, he jumped at the chance to leave Southampton for Spurs, Spurs ARE a bigger club than Southampton, UNITED are bigger...
Grow up you tosspot, and do some actual journalisting FFS.

He left Espanyol, his club, because all the mature players were sold out of financial necessity. He began a project with the younger players. They were doing unbelievably well. They were asset stripped. He started from scratch. They were again getting noticed. Again the board looked to make a fast buck. He has made it clear he wanted to build a team, that is his project. He was given assurances that what happened to him at Espanyol wouldn't happen at Southampton. They were doing very well and starting to get noticed. The Southampton board then behaved with duplicity and it was clear that the squad was going to be asset stripped. Was Poch wrong to leave under those circumstances? Well, not if you consider they sold seven (or was it eight) first team players. Did the board actually make any serious effort to persuade him to stay? Wenger said that Poch would win the CL with Southampton if he was allowed to keep that squad together. Southampton fans should be bluddy furious with their board - especially now that it really doesn't look like it was any kind of fluke!

I agree...I think there is a very good chance he would still be at Southampton if the board hadn't behaved as they did.
 

archiewasking

Waiting for silverware..........
Jul 5, 2004
7,848
11,668
Good thing for us though. That's why giving our top players salary rises and contract extensions is so important. Poch appears to be the prime mover when an impass is reached and Levy is thankfully bending to his will. We start asset stripping and the historical evidence points only one way. Bye bye Poch and a probable swift descent into treading water in mid table obscurity.
 

worcestersauce

"I'm no optimist I'm just a prisoner of hope
Jan 23, 2006
26,891
45,040
The thing is that a project like his cannot work at a small club like Southampton, they are not big enough to retain their best players and wouldn't want to anyway if they can make some money on them.
It's also the case that he couldn't have done at United what he has done with us, they would not have been willing to give him time to build using club youngsters, they'd have wanted instant success, ironically they have probably learnt their lesson now and would accept it. Mind you I doubt that the Glazers would appeal to him.
He would no doubt get the time he required at one of the mega rich clubs now because of his time with us but he isn't finished with his project here and that is the main reason he won't leave for a long time yet and, as I've said before, we will soon be among the biggest clubs in the world.
 

EighteenEightyTwo

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2011
444
1,925
As @spud says.

No-one is denying that Fergie and the production of a winning team wasn't a major factor in their dominance.

But it was only one of many factors into their development into a commercial giant. Producing a good team which happened to coincide with BPL/CL/TV money was also a factor. Another was their growth from marketing irrelevance to a money making marketing juggernaut.

To bring up Mr Bose again, if you've never read Manchester Unlimited you would find it very informative. The Man from Tottenham, about Edward Freedman, is a whole chapter of the book. On page 188 he says:


It was only one part of a financial revolution that was parallel to the development of a successful football team. But to underplay it would be as big a mistake as to assign all of the credit to their on-field success to financial muscle at the expense of recognising the management of Ferguson and the development of the Class of 92.
in the mid 90s MUFC had one phone to take merchandise orders. Freedman bought another phone and doubled their merchandise sales overnight. True story.
 

tommo84

Proud to be loud
Aug 15, 2005
6,120
11,100
Poch was very blunt about his future at Southampton. Before Cortese quit Pochettino was already saying he had no future at Southampton without him.

Cortese sold Poch on a project, everything was going fine but then the Saints owner decided the plan would be to sell players they didn't want to sell. Cortese quit as a result and Pochettino stayed until the end of the season and then quit like he said he would.

It annoys me when I see other fans saying "He didn't think twice about leaving Southampton" when I reckon he might still be there if Cortese had stayed.

This article from The Guardian has some very blunt quotes from Pochettino before Cortese quit for anybody that's interested: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/may/16/mauricio-pochettino-quit-southampton-nicola-cortese

This is exactly it and it applies to other coaches too - an obvious example being Koeman.

A lot of foreign coaches (especially the younger ones) want to make their name and leave a legacy in management by managing a project through to its natural conclusion. Klopp did it at Dortmund. In each case the coach will take a job at a smaller club which they have some obvious connection to (eg Mainz for Klopp, Espanyol for Pochettino) or a big club in a league where there is an apparent ceiling to what even the biggest clubs can achieve (eg Koeman at PSV). Then they look to take on a 'project' at a bigger club which is either under-achieving (eg Spurs, Dortmund pre-Klopp or Everton) or a small club in a rich league with funds and ambition (which is how Cortese sold Poch on Southampton). The key then is that they have the resources and the raised profile to leave a lasting impression, while still operating without the same level of scrutiny that comes with jobs at Man Utd, Barcelona, Bayern Munich etc. This allows them to continue to develop further as a coach while still enjoying some relative success. It is only when that project reaches a natural conclusion (eg they have taken the club as far as they can or the job is going badly so that the decision is taken out of their hands) that the manager looks to leave. At Southampton the club/chairman pulled the plug on Pochettino's project so he went looking for a new one. Koeman obviously saw the same thing happening so he jumped ship to Everton where the new owner probably promised to match Koeman's ambitions (hence Lukaku staying).

A lot of the media in the UK do not understand this at all because it is not how Britain's own journeymen managers currently operate, but several European managers/coaches have followed this pattern and continue to do so. Pochettino sees us as his 'project' and will therefore continue to see us as the best place for him as long as the club and team continue to improve and he has the backing of the chairman. Koeman will look to do the same thing at Everton. The simple premise is that the younger managers in football see more appeal in trying to emulate Barcelona and Dortmund's continuing philosophies than trying to emulate the Galactico approach which has hindered Real Madrid on the pitch as much as its helped their commercial interests off it, and which Man Utd under Woodward seem to be moving towards.
 

eddiev14

SC Supporter
Jan 18, 2005
7,173
19,679
Some twoddle from Jamie Redknapp, I assume based on a performance for a different team from a player clearly not match-sharp...

"Eric Dier is not the player he was last season," Redknapp told the Daily Mail.

"There was almost a strut to him last year with Tottenham and England, but I feel Victor Wanyama has had an effect on him.

"There's that little competition for places and he is slightly lacking in confidence."

Dier's inclusion ahead of Wayne Rooney represented a marked effort to add more impetus to the Three Lions' ranks but Redknapp believes the Spurs man was too keen to play it safe in Ljubljana.

"He was caught twice with back passes in the first half.

"When you're playing well, your first thought is to play the ball forward but he was trying to take the safe option.

"He'll get through this and he could be England's captain one day, but no doubt it's made a difference to his game," Redknapp added.

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foo...anyamas-arrival-has-knocked-his-a3367541.html
 

Dundalk_Spur

The only Spur in the village
Jul 17, 2008
4,956
7,688
Some twoddle from Jamie Redknapp, I assume based on a performance for a different team from a player clearly not match-sharp...

"Eric Dier is not the player he was last season," Redknapp told the Daily Mail.

"There was almost a strut to him last year with Tottenham and England, but I feel Victor Wanyama has had an effect on him.

"There's that little competition for places and he is slightly lacking in confidence."

Dier's inclusion ahead of Wayne Rooney represented a marked effort to add more impetus to the Three Lions' ranks but Redknapp believes the Spurs man was too keen to play it safe in Ljubljana.

"He was caught twice with back passes in the first half.

"When you're playing well, your first thought is to play the ball forward but he was trying to take the safe option.

"He'll get through this and he could be England's captain one day, but no doubt it's made a difference to his game," Redknapp added.

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foo...anyamas-arrival-has-knocked-his-a3367541.html


Yeah Diers fault of course, nothing to do with having wide players who couldn't find space in the Serengeti.
 

Trix

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2004
19,336
329,025
As @spud says.

No-one is denying that Fergie and the production of a winning team wasn't a major factor in their dominance.

But it was only one of many factors into their development into a commercial giant. Producing a good team which happened to coincide with BPL/CL/TV money was also a factor. Another was their growth from marketing irrelevance to a money making marketing juggernaut.

To bring up Mr Bose again, if you've never read Manchester Unlimited you would find it very informative. The Man from Tottenham, about Edward Freedman, is a whole chapter of the book. On page 188 he says:


It was only one part of a financial revolution that was parallel to the development of a successful football team. But to underplay it would be as big a mistake as to assign all of the credit to their on-field success to financial muscle at the expense of recognising the management of Ferguson and the development of the Class of 92.

Simple truth is there aren't huge numbers of 10-12 year olds walking round in Man City shirts because of marketing brilliance. People especially kids flock to success, and 20 years of it is the reason Yanited are what they are. The guy in question may well have been very good at his job but Fergie and Beckham were the seed to the money tree, that now blossoms year after year.
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
Some twoddle from Jamie Redknapp, I assume based on a performance for a different team from a player clearly not match-sharp...

"Eric Dier is not the player he was last season," Redknapp told the Daily Mail.

"There was almost a strut to him last year with Tottenham and England, but I feel Victor Wanyama has had an effect on him.

"There's that little competition for places and he is slightly lacking in confidence."

Dier's inclusion ahead of Wayne Rooney represented a marked effort to add more impetus to the Three Lions' ranks but Redknapp believes the Spurs man was too keen to play it safe in Ljubljana.

"He was caught twice with back passes in the first half.

"When you're playing well, your first thought is to play the ball forward but he was trying to take the safe option.

"He'll get through this and he could be England's captain one day, but no doubt it's made a difference to his game," Redknapp added.

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foo...anyamas-arrival-has-knocked-his-a3367541.html

Why do people have to find a case effect for everything, affected by Victor Wanyama never heard so much nonsense. You know a 22 year old is allowed to have the odd bad game once in a while
 

PT

North Stand behind Pat's goal.
Admin
May 21, 2004
25,468
2,408
Some twoddle from Jamie Redknapp, I assume based on a performance for a different team from a player clearly not match-sharp...

"Eric Dier is not the player he was last season," Redknapp told the Daily Mail.

"There was almost a strut to him last year with Tottenham and England, but I feel Victor Wanyama has had an effect on him.

"There's that little competition for places and he is slightly lacking in confidence."

Dier's inclusion ahead of Wayne Rooney represented a marked effort to add more impetus to the Three Lions' ranks but Redknapp believes the Spurs man was too keen to play it safe in Ljubljana.

"He was caught twice with back passes in the first half.

"When you're playing well, your first thought is to play the ball forward but he was trying to take the safe option.

"He'll get through this and he could be England's captain one day, but no doubt it's made a difference to his game," Redknapp added.

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foo...anyamas-arrival-has-knocked-his-a3367541.html
Dier did play a poor back pass and of course, was using the keeper as an option to keep the ball moving on the ground within the white ranks. He was also the rock behind a roving ineffectual Henderson as well as acting the Captain's role by stepping in to sort the eruption of dispute late in the second half.
Redknapp' anti-Spurs agenda is always looking for a fresh angle of attack but time and again he is exposed as someone with a massive chip on his shoulder.
 

Trees

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
1,534
4,203
Dier did play a poor back pass and of course, was using the keeper as an option to keep the ball moving on the ground within the white ranks. He was also the rock behind a roving ineffectual Henderson as well as acting the Captain's role by stepping in to sort the eruption of dispute late in the second half.
Redknapp' anti-Spurs agenda is always looking for a fresh angle of attack but time and again he is exposed as someone with a massive chip on his shoulder.
Dier has been immense for us since joining. I think he needs 3-4 games to get back to peak fitness. When he does, we will have a huge problem in midfield as to who to pick.
 

spurs9

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
11,840
34,012
Possibly, not sure. My point was that whatever happened at Southampton could easily happen with us and he left there pretty rapidly. Not saying it will obviously and sincerely hope it doesn't, he is perfect for us right now.
He left because Cortese left and he said he would 8 months before NC actually left. I can't see Levy leaving anytime soon.

Asked if he would be staying if Cortese left, the Argentinian said: "Of course not, because the person that has put his faith in me in this club and as a manager is Nicola Cortese.

"Nicola Cortese has basically been the reality at Southampton for the past four years.

"Of course, the people that are in the club, that are part of the club, that are behind the scenes in the club were a little bit worried about what has been said.

"Me on a personal sense, I would not understand a Southampton without Nicola being here."

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...airman-nicola-cortese-leaves-the-8618461.html
 

eddiev14

SC Supporter
Jan 18, 2005
7,173
19,679
Why do people have to find a case effect for everything, affected by Victor Wanyama never heard so much nonsense. You know a 22 year old is allowed to have the odd bad game once in a while

Yeah exactly.

Also, this England team is a mess with a new set of players and tactics in each match, not to mention the hopeless leadership from the top.

This rhetoric that pundits consistently pedal out that a player should 'translate his club form to an England shirt' is actually really difficult to do. When Redknapp was a player they all played 4-4-2 and so did England, it was easy for that generation to play in the same position and same way of playing as they did with their club.

Now in the Premier League there is such variation in the formations and tactics used by the different managers that to expect all the players to turn up and play together for England and fit into a different tactical plan (which seems to change each match) is a total fantasy.

Then you play players like Walcott and Lingard and expect them to be intelligent inside forwards. I mean... Jesus wept!

The smart pundit would not have singled out an individual player for last night, the summer... hell, the last 10 years of England incompetence. It's the lack of leadership, vision and direction that is England's downfall - not a player working his way back to fitness who has been thrown into the heart of a mess.
 

StartingPrice

Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip
Feb 13, 2004
32,568
10,280
The thing is that a project like his cannot work at a small club like Southampton, they are not big enough to retain their best players and wouldn't want to anyway if they can make some money on them.

That may be the case. Nothing wrong with that. Most of us know, and accept, that we have had to cut our coat to suit our cloth for some time, now. The problem is that Poch was given certain assurances, certain protection for his project, when he joined Southampton. After what had happened at Espanyol, that was important to him. Those assurances, that protection went with Cortese. Poch was right to suspect them as they ruthlessly asset stripped and rumour has it that it was only when there was the potential of a fans boycott, in anger to the sale of Chambers to the Goons (I think), and he was like the seventh or eighth first team player, that they called a halt to the sales. So, by their treatment of Cortese, knowing Poch was 100% loyal to him, and refusal to give Poch any guarantees of incentives to stay, they effectively ensured that he wouldn't.

And the Saints fans should be angry with their board for that...rather than continue to peddle a myth, in spite of all of the information in the public domain, that Poch somehow betrayed them.

It's also the case that he couldn't have done at United what he has done with us, they would not have been willing to give him time to build using club youngsters, they'd have wanted instant success, ironically they have probably learnt their lesson now and would accept it. Mind you I doubt that the Glazers would appeal to him.

I agree. I think we were the perfect club for him when he joined us.

He would no doubt get the time he required at one of the mega rich clubs now because of his time with us but he isn't finished with his project here and that is the main reason he won't leave for a long time yet and, as I've said before, we will soon be among the biggest clubs in the world.

And my hope is that is that with all of the development, financially and in terms of status, we will at least begin to approximate to one of them after the stadium is built. So Poch can kinda make the transition from one to the other without switching sides. He would benefit from that as he would have his own team already, know the club and the yoot set-up intimately, and him and his family be already settled, but at the same time having the additionally resources. They may not quite be at the level of the mega clubs, but, hopefully combined with the other factors it would be enough to carry on progressing. From our perspective - if we are wanting to keep him it will because he has been successful.
 
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