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What's wrong with English football (Looooong post)

rez9000

Any point?
Feb 8, 2007
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Failing to qualify for Euro 2008 is embarrasing. Of course we didn't have the automatic right to be there, but it's still humiliating for a country with supposedly 'the best league in the world' to fail to qualify. Even qualification would have been slightly embarrasing as we would have made it in large part due to other results, rather than our own efforts.

English football has a great pedigree. We formalised the rules that have developed into the modern game. We're World Cup winners. We have the richest and most watched league in the world. So what's wrong with English football? For me, there are a number of problems.

Chief among them is the sheer volume of foreign players in our leagues. Instead of fostering domestic talent, the top clubs simply bus in stars from outside of England. As a result English players have fewer opportunities to develop their skills. The cliched answer to that has always been 'well, if the English players are good enough then they'll be picked by the big clubs anyway'. I consider that to be circular thinking. When clubs buy foreign players thay deny the opportunity for English players to play and train at the highest levels. What the current setup is doing is putting the onus on young English players to become world-beaters first and then get the opportunity to play at the top. Not every English player will be a prodigy like Rooney or Beckham. And not every young English player will have access to state-of-the-art training facilities and coaches with which to develop their skills, or the opportunity to hone those skills in competitive matches.

The number of foreign players also carries another problem: knowledge. Foreign players in our leagues learn about the best English players while they play here. They then have a greater knowledge of what makes individual players tick and can then transfer that to their national team should they play against England. We all remember the infamous Cristiano Ronaldo 'wink' in the World Cup Quarter-Final. He had first-hand knowledge of how to wind Rooney up and, as a result, was a contributory factor in Rooney's red-card.

One more problem with the volume of foreign players. With fewer top quality English players competing for places in the national side, players who are picked for England become complacent in their almost automatic selection. When a player believes he's a shoe-in for the England squad, he doesn't feel as if he needs to perform to hold his place down. Good examples from both sides of the coin are Lampard and Wright-Phillips. When Lampard was first picked for England, he worked like the proverbial bitch. He was an absolute workhorse. Once he had consolidated his position, once he became a 'first-name on the team sheet' England player, his effort vanished. On the flipside is Shaun Wright-Phillips. His position is under threat from David Beckham and Aaron Lennon (although Lennon's threat is a little less urgent these days). As a result, he's tireless on the pitch, and busts a gut every time he plays. He may not have done very well last night, but he did try.

Now, before I'm branded a Nazi and start being courted as the BNPs next local councillor candidate, I would like to say that I believe the presence of foreign players in English football does have a wide array of positives too. The technical proficiency of non-English players and the beauty of play that foreign players bring to English football makes the domestic game a joy to behold. However, this thread I feel shows that you can have too much of a good thing.

Another problem in the English game is money. Not, with the fact that there is too much of it. But rather that too much of it is concentrated in the too few places. Most of the money in the English game is concentrated in the Premier League. The massive gap between the Premier League is denying much-needed funds for the grass roots of the game, and the gap is widening.

And speaking of grass-roots, another problem is the lack of quality in academies and training schools. That aspect of the game is handed to clubs to operate, with very few independent football academies. Those that exist are underfunded and have a lack of facilities and ameneties.

Chairman. The whole area of club ownership is problematic. Anyone with enough money can take over a football club and this carries problems. Abramovich’s time at Chelsea has made a mockery of the English game. Chelsea’s successes during his tenure were bought, pure and simple. Now, buying players is all well and good and is part and parcel of football. But the sheer amount of money he has spent, the manner in which he has constructed a trophy-winning side has further pulled football away from concepts of toil and effort and work and personal achievement and pushed it even further into the realm of money and agent’s fees and business.

More money is also inherently dangerous. As clubs try to compete in the harsher, cut-throat environment that football is becoming, some clubs are going to the wall, or at the very least becoming too familiar with the brickwork. Leeds is the perfect example. The last team to win the old Division One title, where are they now? League One (doing very well, of course, but still League One). They borrowed heavily to try and build a title-winning squad and they paid a dear price for it. They have been forced to sell their training ground and their stadium. They have had 25 points deducted from them in the last two seasons due to financial difficulties, and their status off the pitch is still precarious. For a side that less than twenty years ago was the top club in the country, it’s been a long drop.

So what’s the solution?
 

rez9000

Any point?
Feb 8, 2007
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Part 2

Well there are many ideas:

The ‘problem’ of foreign players is problematic. It is not possible to impose restrictions on the use of EU players as a result of EU legislature regarding the right to work (I think). However, nothing prevents the football infrastructure from charging an environment where the presence of foreign players contributes more than pretty football.

A system of tariffs has been suggested, where for every non-British player a club buys they would be forced to pay a tariff or levy. For every foreign player purchased by a club a contribution would be made to the grass-roots of the game – either an independent academy or non-league side. Say, 10% of the transfer fee (or a pre-determined sum for free-transfer cases) This may seem like lot of money, but when Chelsea can spunk £30 million pounds on Shevchenko it does beg the question why isn’t money of that nature being spent on the grass-roots of the game? £3 million pounds for a football academy or non-league side would go a long way to improving the grass-roots of the game. This approach would have a manifold effect: If clubs want to continue to bring in foreign players, then the grass-roots of the game would enjoy a massive boost in revenue, revenue that could be used to further improve facilities and amenities for young talent. And if clubs are unwilling to shell out extra money for foreign players, this gives greater opportunity to English talent. And furthermore, because of the greater financial burden on importing players, only the very best foreign talent, the cream, would be brought to England instead of just anyone. And the cherry on the cake is that it does not impinge on the law.

Money. The money that floods through the English game needs to be regulated properly. Systems must be imposed for a variety of reasons. Chief among them is to prevent another Jack Walker or Roman Abramovich. There have to be clear rules that prevent anyone who has the money to simply walk in and buy trophies. In the same way that coaches must gain proper qualifications for the roles they undertake, men who wish to own a football club must also be vetted and regulated, to prevent the game from becoming a rich man’s playground.

Spending rules must also be brought in. Rules on spending must be linked to the size of the club in inverse proportion to it: the bigger the club, the less (proportionally) they should be allowed to spend. This would make the English game more competitive because then success would then not be determined by how wealthy a club is, but on how good their coaching and management is. This added competitiveness would also make the game more exciting for all football fans, neutral and diehard alike, as it would drastically rein in the almost monopolistic effect of the ‘Top 4’ cartel.

The FA. The FA was originally formed by forward-thinking men of football who wanted to improve the game. Their efforts have had a lasting impact on not just the English game, but football as a whole. We need that sort of drive and verve in the current FA. We need new thinkers, radical men who will look to solve problems rather than support the status quo.


And finally, the most important aspect of the game of football, always: the fans. Yes, us. We also bear a small responsibility for the state of the game. Not through disloyalty of fickleness, but rather through too much loyalty. We refuse to acknowledge just how much power we have. But, the power needs to be focused, needs to be united. We are the lifeblood of the game, without us, football would be a nothing – 22 men kicking a pig’s bladder along a turf for 90 minutes. We are what gives football its meaning: the petty rivalries, the worrying moments when a game is going badly, the soul that gets us to sing for 90 minutes, and yes, even the passion that makes a Portsmouth tit able to ring a sodding bell and annoy thousands of people at once.

We need to make our wishes known to those that think they run football. It’s our money. It’s our time that’s being invested. It would be lovely if all the problems of football were recognised by the powers that be and they fixed them of their own accord. But the likelihood is that they won’t, so we have to make them. Don’t buy the shirt, don’t buy the ticket, don’t buy a programme. We’d probably all like to smack the idiots in charge in the head or face or neck, but we can’t. Where we can hit them is in their pockets and they value that far more than their faces or necks (I mean let’s be fair, Brian Barwick hasn’t even got a neck).

I haven’t been able to write everything that comes to mind as many of my points aren’t fully formed yet. To quote a horrible cliché, change is never easy, but it’s sometimes necessary. And this goes beyond the narrow national interests and addresses football as a whole. When the founders of the FA sat down and formalised the rules of football, they were doing it to make it a better game. It’s time for that to happen again.
 

Michey

New Member
May 4, 2004
7,888
1
Not that much really.

Your biggest problem is that you still believes that you're world champions.
 

rez9000

Any point?
Feb 8, 2007
11,942
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Not that much really.

Your biggest problem is that you still believes that you're world champions.

No, I don't think we do. England doesn't have a right to win trophies and most English fans know that and accept that.

Without meaning any disrespect, you need to read the post to actually see the point I'm trying to raise. Again, I mean that with absolutely no disrespect. I'm not saying that we should be winning things automatically, but rather that we have the potential to win things, but our systems don't foster an environment which allows us to do that.
 

chrissivad

Staff
May 20, 2005
51,646
58,072
Not that much really.

Your biggest problem is that you still believes that you're world champions.

i belive thats a lot of rubbish realy.

I dont think i know anyone who thinks we are world champions, just better than we realy are.

Players playing on reputation and not on forum. None of the strikers we had last night have played much in the premiership this seaon, players just walking back into the team. Development of the youngsters...
 

MattyP

Advises to have a beer & sleep with prostitutes
May 14, 2007
14,041
2,980
Interesting post Rez, but I would say the problem with English football is we had an incompetent manager appointed by incompetent FA bigwigs.

I just don't buy this whole foreign player argument. Did England win trophies in the seventies and eighties before the large influx?
 

ShadyRay

Be Nice, I'm New
Sep 10, 2005
5,738
9
I only scanned the post.

But there's a simple reason why England doesn't produce great footballers. We're the only country where the kids play 11-a-sides on full size pitches. Everywhere else they play on smaller pitches, or 5-a-side, so they learn how to move, how to use space, and close ball control. In England we don't.

Simple, but true.
 

yanno

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2003
5,857
2,877
rez9000 - thoughtful post, as always.

Money will always talk in capitalist societies, and with this government's fetishistic belief in the power of unregulated free markets, I can't see much enlightened interventionism taking place to change the financial structure of English football.

But one issue which can be addressed is the development of young English players. Although there is an issue with the influx of non-English players, I do believe that nearly all EPL coaches will play their own Academy players if they're good enough. Especially since UEFA is increasingly insisting on "home-grown" quotas.

Wenger has never been afraid to throw youth in - Fabregas was holding down a goon first team place at 17. So, why did the likes of Pennant, Bentley, Sidwell etc not make the grade at the Arse? I suspect it's because Wenger didn't think they were good enough for his system and his team. Bentley is the most surprizing Arsenal failure. However, Sidwell went to Chelsea for huge wages where Mourinho seemed to decide in pre-season training that he simply wasn't up to it, and Grant has also not played him.

Premier League Academies sign up the best English talent at 10 or 11 (the 10-year-old son of a friend of mine is being courted by West Ham, Arsenal and Spurs with scouts watching every game he plays), but the Academies have pretty appalling records at developing top-class players.

Spurs paid over a million quid plus clauses to Swindon for Leigh Mills - touted as "the next John Terry". But he doesn't seem to have developed that way, and is probably behind Dervitte in our CB pecking order. On ability. Not because of nationality.

One thing that does annoy me about the English system though is that top young players are not given till 22-23 to develop. The top European sides will often loan out their Academy stars for entire seasons to get them top-flight experience - eg Arteta was loaned to Rangers and PSG, and Barca didn't make a decision on him till he around 20. We often seem to give up on young players in their teens, and without allowing them to spend serious time on loan. And this is important, because players often don't learn to use their talents effectively and consistently until they're in their early 20s.

But I agree that there are huge problems with the game in this country.
 

Shanks

Kinda not anymore....
May 11, 2005
31,190
19,074
The media talk like we deserve to be world champions.

I actually don't think we can blame our teams failure on all these things. I believe it comes down to the basics, that there are too many people managing the england set up.
Certain people have to be played for marketing reasons.

I remember a couple of years ago, Rooney and Becks were going to be dropped to give some other guys a run out, then the sponers (possible pepsi?) thratened to pull out if these two players didn't play at least 45 minutes... in a friendly...

Thats the sort of crap we can do without, fuck the sponsors and the money it generates, we want a team of winners.

Our current crop of players are very good. Some individuals who all play for the top teams in the world. They perform as good as anyone else in the world, but put them together and they play like they couldn't give a fuck.

Get a manager in there to play the players who are on form, simple really.
Next play the players in their positions that they play for their clubs - again simple.

You never saw Ronaldo playing at right wing (the brazilian one), if Adriano and Ronaldinho were playing, Ronaldo was benched.. simple as, big name, down to the bench, no biggy for them. And guess what, they still win.

If Gerrard or Owen isn't playing for his club, then they don't get oicked for the England team, get the players that are plkaying on form at that time.

Then you have the tactics, we are way behind on that. These players are capable of winning and capable of playing various tactics, they prove it week in and week out.

So, I get all the money issues and the foreign player issues and even the grass roots issues, but we have the players that can match most teams position to position.

Its all the other crap we don't have.
 

Shanks

Kinda not anymore....
May 11, 2005
31,190
19,074
I only scanned the post.

But there's a simple reason why England doesn't produce great footballers. We're the only country where the kids play 11-a-sides on full size pitches. Everywhere else they play on smaller pitches, or 5-a-side, so they learn how to move, how to use space, and close ball control. In England we don't.

Simple, but true.

Normally I see jokes and piss taking from you mate, but this sums it up perfectly.
Lots of English players lack technique, natural technique.
In Brazil they play with little balls, which gives the kids teh technique to control and pass with something thats more difficult than a full size.
When they move up, the ball control is easy.

Some places are now doing that with the youngsters these days though.

Little man will be playing 5 a side a lot in his first few years!!!
 

rez9000

Any point?
Feb 8, 2007
11,942
21,098
Interesting post Rez, but I would say the problem with English football is we had an incompetent manager appointed by incompetent FA bigwigs.

I just don't buy this whole foreign player argument. Did England win trophies in the seventies and eighties before the large influx?

No we didn't, that's true. But in response to that you have to consider that that's when English football went through a massive dip in quality, popularity and prestige.

But, again, I'm not talking about necessarily winning a trophy, but having the potential to do so. And it's not just about the players. On paper, England can be a frightening proposition. But their on-field performances have been horrendous at times. And the environment that is fostered by the 'problems' of English football are a contributory factor in that.

Although I devoted a large part of the thread to the foreign player aspect, it isn't the only problem. The fact that the other points were a little thinner is that fact that in my argument, I havent' developed those points fully (and the fact that the post would have been about 8 pages long if I expounded on everything).
 

Tryph

Active Member
Jan 20, 2005
2,558
14
Errrmmmmmm........ correct me if I am wrong, but I thought it was the French that actually formalised the rules of football.

That's why there is a very famous street in Paris (whose name escapes me) where FIFA's 'spiritual' HQ is.
 

rez9000

Any point?
Feb 8, 2007
11,942
21,098
Errrmmmmmm........ correct me if I am wrong, but I thought it was the French that actually formalised the rules of football.

That's why there is a very famous street in Paris (whose name escapes me) where FIFA's 'spiritual' HQ is.

Nope, England. That's why our FA is called the FA, rather than the French or Scottish FA.

Here's a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_fa
 

MattyP

Advises to have a beer & sleep with prostitutes
May 14, 2007
14,041
2,980
No we didn't, that's true. But in response to that you have to consider that that's when English football went through a massive dip in quality, popularity and prestige.

But, again, I'm not talking about necessarily winning a trophy, but having the potential to do so. And it's not just about the players. On paper, England can be a frightening proposition. But their on-field performances have been horrendous at times. And the environment that is fostered by the 'problems' of English football are a contributory factor in that.

Although I devoted a large part of the thread to the foreign player aspect, it isn't the only problem. The fact that the other points were a little thinner is that fact that in my argument, I havent' developed those points fully (and the fact that the post would have been about 8 pages long if I expounded on everything).

You say that you want us to have the potential to win trophies, but then also say on paper we can be a frightening proposition.

In my opinion we do have the potential to win trophies because we can be a frightening proposition. Surely one of the aims of the manager is to get the best out of the players, to get the tactics and team right in order to extract the maximum from this set of players.

With a better manager I firmly believe we would have qualified. With a world class manager we may even have gone further than a quarter final appearance.

I'm not saying I don't agree with what you have said, but at the end of the day if the FA had appointed Hiddink not McClaren I would not be struggling to think of somewhere to go on holiday next year.
 

Zoltar60

Member
Sep 26, 2005
63
96
This whole foreigner argument is a nonsense IMO. Ten/fifteen years ago we had mostly english players throughout the premiership, yet our national team was no better than now.

A decent manager could certainly get more out of the current players. In the long term though we need to produce better quality players. The fact that premiership academies are increasingly being filled up with young foreign players is surely a much bigger concern, and one that could have a detrimental effect in the future.
 

Shanks

Kinda not anymore....
May 11, 2005
31,190
19,074
I tend to agree with MattyP on this.
Huddink done well with Russia and South Korea, imagine what he could do with a team full of the players England have to offer.

Thats the point really, we haven't had a decent enough manager to utilise the resources effectivly.
 

joey55

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2005
9,691
3,167
I tend to agree with MattyP on this.
Huddink done well with Russia and South Korea, imagine what he could do with a team full of the players England have to offer.

Thats the point really, we haven't had a decent enough manager to utilise the resources effectivly.

SGE is a great coach, Bobby Robson record in club manangement was top class. Yet once they become England coach they soon got absolutely hammered by the press and fans alike. We blame coaches when in reallity we simply aren't producing good enough players. OK, McClown screwed up, but he's hardly the issue. No matter who the coach is or had we had qualififed, we were still destined for a 1/4 final defeat (probably on penalties), whilst countries with lesser leagues, less finacial resources and smaller populations play great technical football and go further than us.

Also, I don't think Hiddink hasn done a particuarly good job with Russia. They didn't deserve to qualify, the only reason they are going is because of how bad England are, not how good Hiddink has made the Russians.
 

KentuckyYid

*Eyes That See*
May 11, 2005
13,013
2,265
The French started the World Cup didn't they? Jules Rimmet (sp?) and the Ballon D'or or whatever it's called have a French influence.
 

yanno

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2003
5,857
2,877
Huddink done well with Russia and South Korea, imagine what he could do with a team full of the players England have to offer.

Thats the point really, we haven't had a decent enough manager to utilise the resources effectivly.

Hiddink is clearly a top coach. Indeed, he would have ended up at Chelski after Mourinho left except that Abramovich couldn't risk pissing off Putin at a crucial time in Russia's Euro qualification. After all, Roman might have ended up munching on some radioactive biscuits..

But even Hiddink's Russia LOST in Israel - which is frankly just as poor form as losing to Croatia, and 1-0 in Andorra is crap.

Hiddink's success with South Korea was partly due to his ability to have month-long training camps, and thus a club manager's ability to drill a tactical system into his players. All national coaches, no matter how talented, will suffer from this inability to spend serious time on the coaching field with the same group of players. That's why Klinsmann insisted on so many get-togethers when he was coaching Deutchland.

And the power of Premier League clubs means that the new England coach will not get the required time to work with players. I think this, along with the salacious English media, is the main reason why a top coach would not touch the England job with a bargepole. Unless they're solely motivated by a very large cheque for a few days work each year.
 

haxman

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2007
16,922
8,165
Yet once they become England coach they soon got absolutely hammered by the press.


You nailed it there Joey, a large part of the problem is the media overhyping the team, putting them and the manager under severe pressure to perform. The media are the eternal optimists, and then when the team/manager fails they are the first to slate whoever has what I consider the poisoned chalice (England managers job).

Look what happened with Scolari, he was as good as lined up to take the job, and would likely have been a quality appointment, but the media started digging the dirt on him and he then refused the job. Why would you want a job if your private life is going to be spread across the back and sometimes even the front pages of the daily rags?

That's just my 2 cents worth.......
 
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