Why we play 4-5-1 or "You don't know what you're doing"

gloryglory

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
Messages
1,533
#81
we simply cant play 4-5-1 end of story.
We can't play anything else. A squad with only 2 strikers (no, I don't count Campbell) can't play both of them in every game. Even if they both miraculously avoided injury all season long, they'd be knackered. But there's no scope for partnership between the two, neither will create for the other, so it's a complete waste of a player to start both. One or other - Bent for me.

And we don't have a 2-man central mdifield combo that can win midfield battles and create chances either, so 4-5-1 is win-win. It allows us to play our three best central midfielders, Zokora, Jenas and Modric, and all of them can play to their strengths. All you need after that is support for the striker from the wingers - so that means a combination of Bentley on the left, Giovanni on the right, or Lennon on either.
 

mil1lion

Bad Banter
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#82
What total pants, sorry but it need to be said. We cant play one up front as our midfield dont suport the striker. Might as well become Bolton Hotspur, shocking thing to say. Pav isnt a good player, he is over priced and doesnt know when to shot. For god sake how many times is he gonna shot from 30yards, totally idiot. He is a easy way of playing the player we need.
But i for one think we can in fact play 4-5-1. Its just that, the three players that suit that formation haven't played much recently. In fact, as soon as Giovani and Lennon have come on in that formation, it looks a lot more effective. But yesterday we played with 2 of the slowest players we have out wide, in Gilberto and Bentley. The 4-5-1 would work with Giovani, Lennon and Modric. Although the biggest question is where the goals will come from. When Barca play that formation, they have several goalscorers from midfield. But more importantly, the wide players score plenty of goals. There isn't enough goals from Lennon and Giovani so we'd need Modric to chip in and Jenas to break forward and score goals too. Either that or sacrifice Jenas for a striker, but that would cause Zokor problems and we'd more likely concede too many goals.
 

InOffMeLeftShin

Night watchman
Admin
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13,807
#83
But i for one think we can in fact play 4-5-1. Its just that, the three players that suit that formation haven't played much recently. In fact, as soon as Giovani and Lennon have come on in that formation, it looks a lot more effective. But yesterday we played with 2 of the slowest players we have out wide, in Gilberto and Bentley. The 4-5-1 would work with Giovani, Lennon and Modric. Although the biggest question is where the goals will come from. When Barca play that formation, they have several goalscorers from midfield. But more importantly, the wide players score plenty of goals. There isn't enough goals from Lennon and Giovani so we'd need Modric to chip in and Jenas to break forward and score goals too. Either that or sacrifice Jenas for a striker, but that would cause Zokor problems and we'd more likely concede too many goals.
It could indeed work, but I don't see Lennon ever getting into the positions to really provide enough support to the lone striker. He will always want to come and get the ball and then attack the full backs, which is great but not really ideally suited for 4-5-1. I'd suggest it would work better with Campbell and Dos Santos flanking Pavlyuchenko. Pace, directness and an ability to get right up there and be a goal threat. We would still need a creative spark to hit the outlets.
 

ChrisW

New Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2008
Messages
3
#84
It could indeed work, but I don't see Lennon ever getting into the positions to really provide enough support to the lone striker. He will always want to come and get the ball and then attack the full backs, which is great but not really ideally suited for 4-5-1. I'd suggest it would work better with Campbell and Dos Santos flanking Pavlyuchenko. Pace, directness and an ability to get right up there and be a goal threat. We would still need a creative spark to hit the outlets.

Is Campbell ever going to play? I was begining to wonder if he'd been brought in to carry the brown envelope Levy got for selling Berbatov!

:oops:
 

mil1lion

Bad Banter
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#86
I think that Ramos got one player he wanted this summer, Modric. I think Ramos wanted to build a team around this player but he had to use what was got for him and we are now seeing the end result from this mental way we do things.
I doubt it very much. He definately wanted Giovani, i'm sure of that. I'm sure he wanted Bentley and Gomes too. And, although possibly not his first choice from the start, he probably wanted Pavyluchenko (his no 1 targets were probably the likes of Eto'o and Villa.) But its the players he wanted up front but didn't get that have caused a big problem. Seriously, who can argue with the players we signed? They are all great additions. Its just that we also needed a defensive midfielder and at least 1 more striker too. The priority was wrong. We needed a defensive midfielder more than anymore attacking ones. And we needed another striker more than another two wingers.

If we had signed Arshavin though, i think we would have been much better off.

It could indeed work, but I don't see Lennon ever getting into the positions to really provide enough support to the lone striker. He will always want to come and get the ball and then attack the full backs, which is great but not really ideally suited for 4-5-1. I'd suggest it would work better with Campbell and Dos Santos flanking Pavlyuchenko. Pace, directness and an ability to get right up there and be a goal threat. We would still need a creative spark to hit the outlets.
Thats the biggest problem with Lennon i have to admit. He isn't a wide attacker, which is really whats needed in a formation with one striker. But he is great at providing chances because of his pace. I think Giovani is best suited to the formation though.

In fact, the more i think about it, the more i think towards a 4-4-2 with Modric coming in from the left, Giovani coming in from the right and the fullbacks overlapping. And Zokora and Jenas in the middle with Pavylchenko and Bent up front.
 

Gilzean's Hairdresser

All those glancing headers just wore it clean away
Joined
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5
#88
I doubt it very much. He definately wanted Giovani, i'm sure of that. I'm sure he wanted Bentley and Gomes too. And, although possibly not his first choice from the start, he probably wanted Pavyluchenko (his no 1 targets were probably the likes of Eto'o and Villa.) But its the players he wanted up front but didn't get that have caused a big problem. Seriously, who can argue with the players we signed? They are all great additions. Its just that we also needed a defensive midfielder and at least 1 more striker too. The priority was wrong. We needed a defensive midfielder more than anymore attacking ones. And we needed another striker more than another two wingers.

If we had signed Arshavin though, i think we would have been much better off.



Thats the biggest problem with Lennon i have to admit. He isn't a wide attacker, which is really whats needed in a formation with one striker. But he is great at providing chances because of his pace. I think Giovani is best suited to the formation though.

In fact, the more i think about it, the more i think towards a 4-4-2 with Modric coming in from the left, Giovani coming in from the right and the fullbacks overlapping. And Zokora and Jenas in the middle with Pavylchenko and Bent up front.
I'm confused (but then I am new here....) You want to play 4-4-2 with Pav and Bent upfront, but your specified 1st 11, right next to the lovely little cartoon drawings at the bottom of your post, seems to suggest a 4-5-1 with Bent on the bench. With this level of indecision, I'd leave your mobile on if I were you - you might get a call to be the next gaffer.....
 

SelbYido

Get rich or die fryin'...
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Jan 31, 2007
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3,086
#89
Jol and his team are top of the Bundesliga... says it all to me.
Yep, it says Jol doesn't manage us any more & people should get over it as he isn't coming back any time soon. He's irrelevant. Top bloke, good coach but nonetheless, irrelevant.

As for Rob's post, I mostly agree but I'd still have Jenas in above O'Hara as I think JJ's a better all rounder than O'Hara & although O'Hara may have 'fighting spirit', JJ is every bit as capable of pressing & tackling & arguably poses a greater threat to the opposition's goal.
 
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
76
#90
"Says it all to me that Jol is top of the Bundesliga".. What I am trying to say you numpty is that Jol nor Ramos is the problem. Comoli is however with his weird selling and buying strategy..

Comoli out.. it has been enough. And the Bundesliga a weak competition? Grow up.. Congrats to Jol I say!!
 
Joined
Sep 28, 2008
Messages
1
#91
unbelievable, give me the spurs job pls, for starters i would have put lennon and dos santos on from the start, why was ledley king on the bench? why does ramos and co have so much faith in jenas? ramos did a good job clearing out the riff raff and selling them on to sunderland and portsmouth though i didnt like the fact we got rid of malbranque, maybe he should of added jenas zokora and dawson to the clear out list, jenas has been with us long enough now to prove his worth, hes too inconsistent and hot and cold, u never know what kind of game u are going to get from him and that is not good enough for us, zokora is a very ineffective DM, he gives the ball away and dosent make a big enough presence in midfield, as for dawson after a promising start for us i now feel hes a liability,we will not and i repeat WE WILL NOT GET RELEGATED,far too much talent in the squad for that, but if we do not consistently select a strong team and put the players i have mentioned (jenas,zokora,dawson)on the bench more often then it will be a very close call!!!
 

SelbYido

Get rich or die fryin'...
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Messages
3,086
#92
"Says it all to me that Jol is top of the Bundesliga".. What I am trying to say you numpty is that Jol nor Ramos is the problem. Comoli is however with his weird selling and buying strategy..

Comoli out.. it has been enough. And the Bundesliga a weak competition? Grow up.. Congrats to Jol I say!!
Sorry mate, I'm just getting completely sick of people going on about Jol all the time, not particularly aimed at you. As I said, I've nothing against Jol at all & I wish him well.

On the subject of Comolli, its well documented that buying & selling at Spurs is done by comittee so logically, all of that group share the responsibility for both successes & failures. Why, therefore, is Comolli more to blame than Ramos or Levy? I would suggest that Levy's brinkmanship in the Berbatov deal & Ramos' selections/tactics bear as much responsibility for our current predicament although actually, like pretty much every other Spurs fan, I don't know what actually went on in these situations & who played what role. It just seems to be a case of "If in doubt, blame Comolli..."
 

SpursMadDave

SpursMadForever
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
1,777
#94
Have we played a 3 man midfield that didn't include Jenas? The issue isn't Jenas missing, it's that in a 2-man midfield Zokora is a liability (as is Huddlestone and most of our midfielders).

My opinion is that we need to persist with 4-5-1 and we need to drop Jenas but to prevent Pav being isolated from the midfield it's got to be Modric who really steps up. Our season hinges on him staying fit and playing as well as we know he can.
I agree, I said a while back that Modric was our most important player... we need to play the 'Christmas Pudding' formation with Modric as the sixpence (appologies to Mike Bassett for that one)
Bur seriously he is the link man and he HAS to play if fit and he HAS to perform...
 

Mattspur

Pull my finger
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Jan 7, 2004
Messages
3,902
#95
I'd like to see:

Gomez

Hutton Corluka/King Woodgate Bale

Huddlestone/Zokora
Lennon Bently Modric Dos Santos

Pavlachenco
 

hansolsen

New Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2004
Messages
21
#96
o hara is awful jenas is amuch better player but to get the best out of him he needs to play unrestricted making forward runs.
 

mil1lion

Bad Banter
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#97
I'm confused (but then I am new here....) You want to play 4-4-2 with Pav and Bent upfront, but your specified 1st 11, right next to the lovely little cartoon drawings at the bottom of your post, seems to suggest a 4-5-1 with Bent on the bench. With this level of indecision, I'd leave your mobile on if I were you - you might get a call to be the next gaffer.....
Yeah, thanks for noticing how confused i am :) I am currently thinking of the 4-5-1 but i can see why 4-4-2 could also work. My initial post was for a 4-5-1 but i was just contemplating whether we could play 4-4-2, and if we did, then i would think that Modric on the left could be a good option.
 
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
16
#98
Bring back Martin Jol. We're gonna get no where with 4-5-1. If we don't look like scoring on the pitch i.e vs Portsmouth, then we're not going to score.
 

spurs_viola

Rui Costa,dreamspurs no10
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
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2,454
#99
The fault is not Ramos but our squad.

Ramos was brought in to push us onto the next level - and it won't come easily. The players need to develop the positional awareness, stamina and technique to implement his vision.

Under Jol we were 5th back-to-back. We could very well continue this way - we played simple football, relying our 1 or 2 star players to make things happen (Carrick, Berbatov). Not only was this unsustainable, it was also limited because better teams could simply scuff out our key players. We lacked variety, but we get results quickly - simply because we have better quality all over the field compared with any team apart from the top 4. Our forward players such as Lennon only needs to focus on what he does best - running down the byline.

With Ramos we are trying something different. The emphasis is on movement, ball needs to be played quickly and accurately along the ground. Similar to Arsenal. The problem is this requires EVERY player to have good technique, positional awareness and stamina. Players such as Zokora and Dawson will struggle.

I applaud Levy's ambition and courage. I think he has done the right thing. What is needed now is judgement - how much time would Ramos realistically have to implement his vision given the limited ability of the players? How much patience could fans/the board afford before reverting back to our usual ways?
One of the best posts on SC I have read for a while now. It should be so clear to any objective observer and supporter who has managed to stay panic-free (which is indeed getting harder to achieve, I admit) that Ramos' vision for the team requires several differences in the squad he has to work with.

I don't think he wanted to change almost the whole 1st team personnel in one summer - which is more or less what he has to do now. I believe the first stage of team's regeneration was to replace players who seemed to reach their limit and whose best was not good enough (Stalteri, Lee, Chimbonda, Malbranque, Tainio) with younger, more versatile players with more potential and quality; but losing Keane and Berbatov in the same summer put a huge dent in these plans, as Ramos lost both of the experienced forwards who would have provided the focal points for the new young players, so ruining the shape and the potency of the team he was trying to assemble.

The second stage, I think, may have been the further improvements of personnel, replacing the players who after having a full season under Ramos would not have shown enough progress - and this would have included people like Jenas, Dawson, Assou Ekotto, Bent possibly going next summer or even in January if we had a good bid for any of them.

With transfer period having concluded so disappointingly and the season starting so miserably, Ramos has to ride the tide and hope he is given time and support to realize his vision for Spurs - which is to develop the modern, fast, skillful, flexible play and make the team successful with it, competing on all fronts including Premiership top 4 - like he did with Sevilla, where he had full support and good understanding with Monchi (their Director of Football) and developed a fast, skillful, stylish and successful team who recovered from the losses of star players like Baptista, Sergio Ramos, Reyes in subsequent seasons and went on to become better.
 

Gilzean's Hairdresser

All those glancing headers just wore it clean away
Joined
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Whether it's 4-5-1 or 4-4-2, I don't think anyone on this site seriously doubts that Ramos is a smarter, more sophisticated coach than Jol. Although I loved Jol as a bloke, and appreciated what he did for us as a club, the decision to jettison him in favour of Ramos made some sense - if only because the continuing failure of Jol's team to win against the 4 clubs above us made progress to the top 4 virtually impossible.
So, we needed to find a way of playing that was cuter, faster and more modern and it seemed that Ramos was the man to do it. What is now interesting - and potentially crucial for the future of the club - is how the manager handles our disastrous start to the season. Does he have the strength of character to go with his proven tactical acumen? Will he stick to his guns or buckle under pressure and seek a different way? Most of all, will he put the disappointment of an undoubtedly frustrating summer transfer window behind him and start to deal with the reality of the situation - that until January at least, the present squad is all he has to work with, whether he likes it or not.
We can all have dreams of 'what if' and 'what might have been'. Many of mine involve me living in a New York penthouse, playing golf with the 81 cup winning team by day, before returning home for cocktails and dinner prepared by a naked Kelly Brook, who is having treatment - unsuccessful, as it happens - for her sex addiction. But the thing is - IT AIN'T GOING TO HAPPEN! We are not going to get Berba or Robbie or Carrick or Jol or Dave Bloody Mackay back, so it's all about dealing with the reality of the situation, and in the end it comes down to a few simple questions: is the man that the board moved heaven and earth to get to the club - risking ridicule and abuse from the media and rival fans along the way - is he really, truly made of the right stuff? Can he shut himself off from all the crap coming his way at the moment and stick to his principles, galvanising a group of players who, for all that they may be short in one or two areas, are really not that bad on paper? (Certainly if you look at our first choice line up and, say, that of high riding Aston Villa's, on paper I'd take ours every time.) Does he have the belief in himself to, in turn, pass on that all important sense of belief to the team?
His body language on the touch line and increasingly erratic (bordering on bizarre) team selection suggests that, worryingly, he may be feeling the pressure and/or have lost his nerve. We had all better hope, for the short and long term future of our club, that this is not the case.
 
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