Why we play 4-5-1 or "You don't know what you're doing"

brasil_spur

SC Supporter
Joined
Aug 25, 2006
Messages
8,188
Brilliant post Rob and i'm completley in agreement with you.

I honestly wouldn't be suprised if Jenas has something in his contract about the number of matches minimum he plays per season when fit, as i can't remember seeing our midfield play without him for more than 2-3 games in a row since he joined us, and there have definitley been times where his form has not warranted a start for us.
 
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
71
I agree, I said a while back that Modric was our most important player... we need to play the 'Christmas Pudding' formation with Modric as the sixpence (appologies to Mike Bassett for that one)
Bur seriously he is the link man and he HAS to play if fit and he HAS to perform...
SPURSMADDAVE I know you were being facetious but there is some truth in this approach to the 4-5-1 / 4-4-2 argument. We have several players who can play as support to a main striker as well as a winger/wide midfielder : G2S, Bentley, Lennon, Modric, Jenas ( if he gets his act together ) and Taraabt ( if Ramos hasn't completely given up on him ). In a flexible system we could play one front man with several fast attacking midfielders able to either deliver from the wings or move centrally to support and score from the striker's knock-down or hold-up play. What numerical system we describe this as is academic and ( provided the team develops some understanding and co-ordination and don't all rush in together ) could make the most of our skillful attacking midfielders whilst minimizing the scarcity of true front men in our line-up.
The critical point which was painfully illustrated on Sunday is that if we don't have someone in midfield who can start the attacks, deliver the ball accurately and have the tactical nous to see potential attacks then all the skill up front is wasted. No amount of Jenas, O'hara and Zokora passing sideways or backwards will help whichever number system we adopt.
Modric was bought specifically to fill this role which was also badly lacking last season and was probably cause of a lot of Bulgarian moaning. I am still hopeful that Modric will get up to speed and could in a free "sixpence in the pudding" role join the dots between a lot of talented but unco-ordinated players. If this doesn't happen we're likely to flap around with little hope until we can buy and bed in someone else
 
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
76
I still can not figure out why nobody blames Levy / Comoli.. We were going places under Jol.. building something beautiful. Then all off a sudden at the end of the second year (5th) they started looking for a new manager.. rumours about Ramos.. Klinsmann.. but FFS why? Because of a bad spell of games?

Ramos (Good manager) came and won the cup with Jols (better; Arnesens) team.. So the team we had had sufficient potential to win trophies. It just needed small changes. We were so close!!!

But now we are back at square one. We have lost all positive feelings.. We´re bottom of the league.. what we have built is completely gone. Thanks to Levy / Comoli in my opinion..

Ramos is a good coach.. and I stand behind him... but if we go on like this (sacking good managers after bad spells, sell players without taqking care of proper replacements) we will never ever ever become a top team.

I am so dissapointed.. in the board
 

SpursMadDave

SpursMadForever
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
1,777
I agree, I said a while back that Modric was our most important player... we need to play the 'Christmas Pudding' formation with Modric as the sixpence (appologies to Mike Bassett for that one)
Bur seriously he is the link man and he HAS to play if fit and he HAS to perform...
SPURSMADDAVE I know you were being facetious but there is some truth in this approach to the 4-5-1 / 4-4-2 argument. We have several players who can play as support to a main striker as well as a winger/wide midfielder : G2S, Bentley, Lennon, Modric, Jenas ( if he gets his act together ) and Taraabt ( if Ramos hasn't completely given up on him ). In a flexible system we could play one front man with several fast attacking midfielders able to either deliver from the wings or move centrally to support and score from the striker's knock-down or hold-up play. What numerical system we describe this as is academic and ( provided the team develops some understanding and co-ordination and don't all rush in together ) could make the most of our skillful attacking midfielders whilst minimizing the scarcity of true front men in our line-up.
The critical point which was painfully illustrated on Sunday is that if we don't have someone in midfield who can start the attacks, deliver the ball accurately and have the tactical nous to see potential attacks then all the skill up front is wasted. No amount of Jenas, O'hara and Zokora passing sideways or backwards will help whichever number system we adopt.
Modric was bought specifically to fill this role which was also badly lacking last season and was probably cause of a lot of Bulgarian moaning. I am still hopeful that Modric will get up to speed and could in a free "sixpence in the pudding" role join the dots between a lot of talented but unco-ordinated players. If this doesn't happen we're likely to flap around with little hope until we can buy and bed in someone else
Completely agree....

With just a bit of belief and a midfield made up of Modric + 2 from (Zokora/Jenas/Hudd/O'Hara) 2 pacy wingers from (Lennon/Bale/Dos Santos/Bentley - ok no pace at all) and a hard working centre forward (Pav or Bent) we CAN win games and dominate.

I didnt think we played that badly first half against Pompey, then 2 bad bits of luck, Jenas waving at his b/f in stand giving away a penalty and then the referee tripping over his guide dog and missing Diarra doing the same! Confidence ZERO!

In fact Diarra played just how I would like Modric to play, he was at the centre of all that Pompey did.

COYS!!!! (please... im getting seriously pissed off with the WHU fans I work with.....)
 

2bearis2do

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Messages
3,820
I still can not figure out why nobody blames Levy / Comoli.. We were going places under Jol.. building something beautiful. Then all off a sudden at the end of the second year (5th) they started looking for a new manager.. rumours about Ramos.. Klinsmann.. but FFS why? Because of a bad spell of games?

Ramos (Good manager) came and won the cup with Jols (better; Arnesens) team.. So the team we had had sufficient potential to win trophies. It just needed small changes. We were so close!!!

But now we are back at square one. We have lost all positive feelings.. We´re bottom of the league.. what we have built is completely gone. Thanks to Levy / Comoli in my opinion..

Ramos is a good coach.. and I stand behind him... but if we go on like this (sacking good managers after bad spells, sell players without taqking care of proper replacements) we will never ever ever become a top team.

I am so dissapointed.. in the board
:clap::clap:

I agree.

I've posted far too many times on this site to repeat all my grievances. But we are one rudderless, useless ship at the moment with a big feck off hole in the engine room. I see what Ramos is trying to do and with time it may well work. But the timings of buying and selling players has really fecked up our and indeed his season and for that and the few extra mill we got, one can only blame the board.
Every point we drop, every place we slip down the table (not possible now!) is half a million down the tubes. Was it really worth fecking up our whole season to hang on to Berbs for a few extra million, until the last minute of the season? With no proper replacement? I think not.
Make a few million, but we don't spend a few million extra on someone like Arshavin? Unbelievably bad business from the Spurs board. Of course we want to balance the books, but the real profit is made in having a successful team, well I don't see it happening with this current squad. The January transfer window will back this theory up.

Bent. Kaboul, KPB....30million...great business?!? Commoli, you're having a larf.

We won't get relegated, we'll improve, but just like the Geordies we have another wasted season to look forward to after another summer of incompetence. Depressing, annoying, frustrating and all part and parcel of being born a Spurs fan.
 
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
1,354
Gomes
Hutton Woodgate King Bale
Bentley Corluka Modric Lennon
Pavluychenko Bent

Goalkeeper - we all seem at least fairly happy with Gomes

Fullbacks - need to be fairly speedy to attack as well as defend. So not Corluka but possibly Zokora (R/L). Preferably Hutton (R) & Bale (L) but always happy with Gunter (R/L)

Centrebacks -Woody & Ledley both fit would be perfect. Corluka is good cover for either. Dawson, not so good but not always so bad either. Zokora can also cover here if we're desperate but only with Woody & Leds (& maybe Corluka but we don't know quite how well he'll take the lead role just yet).

Centre midfield - Modric must play - if not why the hell did we pay all that money. Along side him I want a solid player who reads the game well and is neat and tidy. So far this season I've not seen one, other than flashes from O'Hara, Jenas & Zokora - and all while we're playing 3 in the middle which isn't good enough. I'm told Corluka can play there and he certainly has all the attributes (like Leds). He's best mates with Modric and they should have an instant understanding.

Wide players - Playing 4-4-2, we work best with one true winger and one wide midfielder (Lennon & Davids anyone). So, Bentley (again, we paid a fortune so get him played) and either Lennon or Giovani. We have other options out here if these players are unavailable, Bale (playing Gunter or even BAE behind him), Jenas (the only way he should get a game), Campbell or even Modric (though who then fills his centre role is currently beyond me).

Strikers - Pavlyuchenko has shown signs that he could be just what we need and along side him, either Bent or Campbell. I don't understand Gus saying Pav & Bent are too similar. Pav is a big target man with a good touch and Bent is a speed merchant who plays off the last defender. It's your classic 'little & large' combination except Bent isn't that little. And if it needs mixing up, there's always Campbell (why oh why wasn't he even on the bench on Sunday).

So, this looks like a pretty good side to me. (The right) two new players in January and it will be awesome.
I still assume we got Pav with the expectation that Arshavin would follow.
Then, it seems we had all our holding midfield eggs in Veloso's basket and he turned us down, so we threw a last minute £15m at Portsmouth for Diarra. Either would have been a good buy but add to that Palombo, De La Red, Albelda or even Jimmy bloody Bullard (and there must be dozens that I don't even know the names of). Surely, we could get one of them (better still 2) in January.

This team could win the league.

Gomes
Hutton Woody King Bale
Bentley Palombo Modric Lennon
Pavlyuchenko Arshavin
 
Joined
Dec 11, 2006
Messages
639
ramos has said himself he wants to play 4 4 2.and i hope he starts awith that at the weekend. with no pav on thursday and it being a euro away game i expect we will go 4 5 1.
........gomes
gunter king woody bale
bentley jj zokora o'hara
........modric
........bent


sunday back to the prem against a team that could bully us,so 4 4 2...
.........gomes
gunter corluka woody bale
bentley jj zokora lennon
....campbell pav (or bent since they cant plasy together).....
 
Joined
Dec 11, 2006
Messages
639
Gomes
Hutton Woodgate King Bale
Bentley Corluka Modric Lennon
Pavluychenko Bent

Goalkeeper - we all seem at least fairly happy with Gomes

Fullbacks - need to be fairly speedy to attack as well as defend. So not Corluka but possibly Zokora (R/L). Preferably Hutton (R) & Bale (L) but always happy with Gunter (R/L)

Centrebacks -Woody & Ledley both fit would be perfect. Corluka is good cover for either. Dawson, not so good but not always so bad either. Zokora can also cover here if we're desperate but only with Woody & Leds (& maybe Corluka but we don't know quite how well he'll take the lead role just yet).

Centre midfield - Modric must play - if not why the hell did we pay all that money. Along side him I want a solid player who reads the game well and is neat and tidy. So far this season I've not seen one, other than flashes from O'Hara, Jenas & Zokora - and all while we're playing 3 in the middle which isn't good enough. I'm told Corluka can play there and he certainly has all the attributes (like Leds). He's best mates with Modric and they should have an instant understanding.

Wide players - Playing 4-4-2, we work best with one true winger and one wide midfielder (Lennon & Davids anyone). So, Bentley (again, we paid a fortune so get him played) and either Lennon or Giovani. We have other options out here if these players are unavailable, Bale (playing Gunter or even BAE behind him), Jenas (the only way he should get a game), Campbell or even Modric (though who then fills his centre role is currently beyond me).

Strikers - Pavlyuchenko has shown signs that he could be just what we need and along side him, either Bent or Campbell. I don't understand Gus saying Pav & Bent are too similar. Pav is a big target man with a good touch and Bent is a speed merchant who plays off the last defender. It's your classic 'little & large' combination except Bent isn't that little. And if it needs mixing up, there's always Campbell (why oh why wasn't he even on the bench on Sunday).

So, this looks like a pretty good side to me. (The right) two new players in January and it will be awesome.
I still assume we got Pav with the expectation that Arshavin would follow.
Then, it seems we had all our holding midfield eggs in Veloso's basket and he turned us down, so we threw a last minute £15m at Portsmouth for Diarra. Either would have been a good buy but add to that Palombo, De La Red, Albelda or even Jimmy bloody Bullard (and there must be dozens that I don't even know the names of). Surely, we could get one of them (better still 2) in January.

This team could win the league.

Gomes
Hutton Woody King Bale
Bentley Palombo Modric Lennon
Pavlyuchenko Arshavin
i could not believe what gus said about pav and bent,they are totally differant players in my eyes.bent can play on the last defender while pav holds the ball up or flicks it on...strange..:shrug:
 
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Messages
883
:clap::clap:

I agree.

I've posted far too many times on this site to repeat all my grievances. But we are one rudderless, useless ship at the moment with a big feck off hole in the engine room. I see what Ramos is trying to do and with time it may well work. But the timings of buying and selling players has really fecked up our and indeed his season and for that and the few extra mill we got, one can only blame the board.
Every point we drop, every place we slip down the table (not possible now!) is half a million down the tubes. Was it really worth fecking up our whole season to hang on to Berbs for a few extra million, until the last minute of the season? With no proper replacement? I think not.
Make a few million, but we don't spend a few million extra on someone like Arshavin? Unbelievably bad business from the Spurs board. Of course we want to balance the books, but the real profit is made in having a successful team, well I don't see it happening with this current squad. The January transfer window will back this theory up.

Bent. Kaboul, KPB....30million...great business?!? Commoli, you're having a larf.

We won't get relegated, we'll improve, but just like the Geordies we have another wasted season to look forward to after another summer of incompetence. Depressing, annoying, frustrating and all part and parcel of being born a Spurs fan.
Yep. I agree with all of that.
Another thing is that when the Jan window comes we are going to be out muscled by the likes of citeh or maybe even the barcodes when it comes to getting the quality we need.

Funny ol world isn't it.
 
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
1,354
Another thing is that when the Jan window comes we are going to be out muscled by the likes of citeh or maybe even the barcodes when it comes to getting the quality we need.

Funny ol world isn't it.
Or, if we get bought out by some mystery billionaire Far East investor (as the Guardian suggests), we could be the ones to out muscle everyone else.
 
Joined
Dec 14, 2006
Messages
551
Anyone else not seen any evidence that Pavlyuchenko will cut it? Anyone else believe in Bent?
at the moment i'm almost amazed at how bent is overlooked for pav. personally i think its a little odd. i don't really think anyone knows how good pav is but he seems to be our new messiah.
 
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
1,354
Today's 11 was the poorest choice I can remember by a Spurs manager. It made literally no sense. I thought there were 5 or 6 errors out of 11, some of them laughable. We have the players to turn this around, but we don't look like it's going to happen anytime soon.
YES!
And I agreed with the rest of your post too!
 
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
1,354
I was all geared up to reply to this interesting article, until skimming the truly pathetic, learning-disabled chain of responses nearly put me off. Virtually every post, long or short, blames our current difficulties on an individual player, usually Jenas or Zokora, and calls the poster's bête noire "shit" or "a waste of money".

People who have nothing interesting to say could possibly consider shutting up, instead of using internet boards as a vehicle for venting their formless rage at individual Spurs players ... but I don't know why I even bothered writing that. It's not going to make any difference. People will continue to embarrass themselves in public, whatever I say.

Anyway, at least getting that off my chest has restored my desire to comment on the article. There's an elephant in the room and everyone is avoiding mentioning it. Post after post tries to analyse our sputtering midfield and the problems we are having supporting the strikers.

But the "best defence in years" has contrived, in every match so far but one, to look really good for about 86 minutes, yet still concede one or, usually, two goals. Individually, we have an excellent squad, but it is not functioning as a team and the mental weakness of the collective is evident in virtually every minute of play. That is at least as true of our defence as it is of our midfield. The defence isn't working, or at least it isn't doing what it has been designed to do, which is to concede less than one goal per game. That's a realistic target for a defence that expects to finish in the top six: concede no more than 38 goals in a league season.

Perhaps people haven't noticed because we haven't made many defensive howlers, nor have we been on the rough end of a hiding, but the defence isn't functioning any better than the midfield. Not in terms of end product.
I'm guessing that no one's mentioning the defence because Hutton's been injured so far and the rest have changed every game. We kind of assume Ramos knows his best defence (Hutton, Woody, King, Bale) but hasn't been able to play them, whereas he's had all the midfield & stikers avaiable and not been able to find a preferred combination.
And, as far as conceding no more that 38 goals, surely that's not just down to the keeper & defence. We all saw how much more solid we were with Carrick & Davids in the side.
 
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