Will we win a trophy under Poch?

Discussion in 'Spurs Chat' started by DEFchenkOE, Oct 25, 2017.

Will Poch win us a trophy?

  1. Yes - Poch will get us some silver

    143 vote(s)
    62.4%
  2. No - we'll always be the nearly men

    54 vote(s)
    23.6%
  3. Undecided

    32 vote(s)
    14.0%
  1. StartingPrice

    StartingPrice Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip

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    You could have answered the points numerically. That would have been the logical way to go about it.


    Well, that's an assertion. I don't see that at all TBH. I've numbered the points so they are clearly differentiated. I believe the arguments are all clearly made and in response to specifics within the post I am responding to. Fail to see how that makes it a mess.



    You do realise that with the benefit of hindsight you can say that about every single title race (or non-title race, to be exact). it was all just destiny. It was all bound to happen as it did. The truth is, against Leicester, we within minutes of going top - when ten-man Goons got an equaliser at the Lane. With Chelsea, one result could have made the difference. And game by game, no-one knew what our, Leicester and Chelsea's results would be in the future and we could have overtaken either - that is why it was a title race. It's funny, because this morning I was going through the stories on NewsNow and I noticed, without looking for them, that so many of the articles in multi-various media outlets all volunteered the information, that they obviously believe to be correct, that Spurs have been in a title race for the last two seasons. Why do you think that is - why is everyone fooling themselves like this when you see with such precise clarity?

    We have been in a title race the last two seasons, the outsiders, playing catch-up, never with our destiny in our own hands (apart from the above mentioned NLD), but title contenders none-the-less. If you can't just accept that, perhaps you should examine your own motives rather than imputing the feeble minded vacuousness of everyone who believes contrary-wise that THFC were actually in a title race.


    I don't need to, because I never claimed you had said it. Perhaps, volte face, you could point to where I stated that you had said this? No?

    Okay. Now we have this verb in the Enlgish language to infer. It is a thinking verb, not a doing verb like, say, to run, or to jump. It is of its nature creative, so ironic that you game me a <Creative> rating, because when to infer, when we make an inference, what we actually do is we examine a series of related arguments to extrapolate further meaning from a persons statement. Let me show you how this is done:

    The general argument that you seem to be agreeing with runs that THFC should target the League and FA Cups, but particularly the League Cup as they will never win the league or CL.

    You say that finishing third and second has fooled our fans into thinking we were genuine contenders.

    You then claim that "now we, Tottenham Hotspur that have won all of 2 trophies in the last 25 years, seem to have this attitude that domestic cups".

    So, the opinion from your side of the argument (that you don't necessarily agree with completely, is that we won't win the league or CL (treated as fact), you believe we were never in a title race previously and you state that because of our historic record we should target the domestic trophies.

    Is it really such a logical jump to infer that you think we should be targeting the domestic cups because we've never been contenders for the title and aren't like to this year either? I not only think it is a logical inference to make, I think it is the most logical thing that can be inferred from your statement. If you didn't mean that at all, and you really do think we can win the league or CL this year say so and I will retract that portion of my frothing at the mouth rant. But it really does make your insistence that anyone who believes we where in a title race the previous two seasons is a fool, seem like a strange and pointless comment if you didn't mean to imply something about this seasons chances.


    I never said you made any claim that we hadn't improved dramatically. I said that the fact that we have been on an upward trajectory for a good while now makes it irrelevant to reference lower points in that trajectory as any indication of which trophies we should be targeting (n.b. I don't necessarily think we should target any particular trophies, we should just try to win things - but I'm not in charge).

    No, I really haven't. Maybe a bit frothy mouthed, though :)
     
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  2. mackay78

    mackay78 Member

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    I just realised our last FA Cup win was closer to the moon landings than today. Ouch.

    Would I celebrate winning the league cup? Too damn right I would.
     
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  3. StartingPrice

    StartingPrice Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip

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    You said this, but you have provided a list of quotes not one of which actually makes any pre-match desire to see us lose the game.

    I think that is quite important because it is the only bone of contention. Everyone accepts that there were plenty of folk who, for one reason or another, weren't that bothered when we did lose it, or, at least, say they weren't.

    You then provide a secondary couple of quotes on of which does show forward projected desire to see us lose the match...but only with the massive qualification that it would mean we win at OT.

    I've just read through the long lost of quotes you provided for the second time and almost without fail every one of them is talking about the match in the past tense, and using terminology like don't care. There is a difference between not caring what happens or, after the event, what has happened in a match, on the one hand, and actively wanting, before the event, to lose a match.

    You provide one single quote where someone actually actively does say they want to lose the match...but it is so much qualified, and the qualification is totally unknowable and not directly influenced , as to make it a pretty pointless statement. He wants us to lose the League Cup match as long as we win at OT, but has no way of knowing if we will win at OT or if losing to West Ham will influence that. It is a pointless statement and in no way shows that anyone was seriously just actively wanting to lose the West Ham match.

    You are making the claims, the burden of proof is with you.
     
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  4. Lighty64

    Lighty64 Glory Glory

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    your right Arsenal have won trophies, but it's 3 in 4 not 4 in 3. in 2 of those seasons whoever got their fixtures would of won it, and last season they got into the final thanks to a horrendous error from a linesman.

    to win trophies you need a decent size squad, and be lucky with injuries. This season we have a decent size squad, but we also have had some injuries. yes I agree throwing a 2 goal lead away to spam was due to carelessness. we went 2-0 up in cruise control, and the players never put enough effort to try and put it to bed and when they did we were unlucky spam decided to play Adrian in goal instead of Hart. if the spam had shown any of that passion they put in over that 20 minute spell in the 1st half, perhaps our team would of gone up a gear or 2.

    @Bobbins obviously now you know why Kane wasn't even on the bench. but after seeing him go off at the end of the Liverpool match, I thought it was pretty obvious he wouldn't be in the squad v spam or did you miss that bit?

    perhaps Poch took Llorente off knowing he needed him on Saturday also along with Son. we couldn't afford the possibility of either or both picking up knocks.
     
  5. Bobbins

    Bobbins SC's 14th Sexiest Male 2008

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    I've never mentioned Kane and have repeatedly said I was happy with the team that played, not sure what you're referring to?
     
  6. Lighty64

    Lighty64 Glory Glory

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    the only season we took it serious in Poch's reign we finished 5th, and run out of juice which cost us a possible run in the Europa League too
     
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  7. Lighty64

    Lighty64 Glory Glory

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    it wasn't the whole clubs fault we lost a 2 goal lead. yes there is a possibility that Poch told them not to over do it, but going by his mood after I doubt it. your right about the fans, had that game been at WHL it would of been a sell out, and yes your right about fans saying about hoping we would lose because the cup is not as important, but that's a very small %. I wanted us to win, but not at the expense of a league position, and i'll admit it now the only thing I'm angry about is the way we went out.

    not sure you have noticed we have to play 10 fixtures in December, 9 in the League and 1 very important game in the CL, so not having to field a very strong team in between 2 tough away trips in hope of getting to the semi's has worked out a bit of a blessing. yes winning a trophy builds a winning mentality but as a few have pointed out, it never did us any favours the last time we won it.
     
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  8. Lighty64

    Lighty64 Glory Glory

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    one of your earlier post said we should of at least had him on the bench

     
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  9. Spurger King

    Spurger King can't smile without glue

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    I want us to be a well run club so that it carries on existing. After that I want us to be entertaining. After that I want us to win games. After that I want us to win trophies.

    I put it in that order because surely that’s what it’s all about. If you’re committed to a football club (any club) you first want them to do whatever is necessary to stay existing. Then you want to enjoy actually supporting them, whether through highs and lows. Without those two nothing else really matters as a football fan, and it’s my opinion that the enjoyment comes from believing that your club are actually capable of winning a game.

    From there it follows that you want your club to win games. Not some, but every game. Pretty obvious, right? As a supporter you want your team to win (or you should), otherwise that’s pretty shit support.

    The pinnacle of winning every game is winning trophies. Therefore it follows that wanting your club to win matches implies you want them to win trophies. From Macclesfield Town to the Mansour team, their fans ultimately want success, whether that’s avoiding the drop, promotion, or the league title.

    We should want our team to want to win every game and every tournament, because that’s what supporters want.

    We’ve taken care of staying in existence, being entertaining, and winning games. If we stay doing that for years without winning trophies we’re falling short.
     
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  10. Lighty64

    Lighty64 Glory Glory

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    do you remember why Bale decided to go, he wanted to play in the Champs League 1st and foremost, he knew he would pick up trophies playing in Spain, because we all know the majority of time it's a 2 horse race over there. if we were to win the Carabao Cup or FA Cup this year but fell out the top 4 because we made more effort and to have any real chance even against lower teams in the Prem you really need to play a strong team.

    the team we put out was strong enough on paper, but once they got their 1st they put everything they had into it, we just never reacted.

    I don't remember what Poch said exactly, but if he said we had to prioritise the Prem and CL then he knows to do so, he has to rotate in the other cups, hopefully we will get easy fixtures in the FA Cup and get to the Final, but not at the expense of top 4, top 4 will help buy better players, and generate the funds for the stadium. 3 minimum nights in the CL in the new stadium is worth so much financially, and getting in it might also help keep the cost down for supporters when the season ticket prices come out.
     
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  11. riggi

    riggi Well-Known Member

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    See what I think would be good is if the fa cup winners then qualified for the champions league.
     
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  12. Spurger King

    Spurger King can't smile without glue

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    They should just go back to the old format of league winners, Cup Winners’ Cup, and Uefa. Won’t happen though, for obvious reasons.
     
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  13. Lighty64

    Lighty64 Glory Glory

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    Players will always want to leave for the bigger clubs that pay the most, and because of the owners throwing everything to do it, and they would still want to go if we had our name printed on the FA Cup or Carabao Cup before the season even kicked off.

    they want top wages, and to play in the CL the most. because of the wages we can afford to pay, we need to play in the CL to have hope of keeping our players. Yes they want trophies, but the only chance Arsenal have hope in at the end of the season keeping both Ozil and Sanchez is to pay them the wages they are demanding and finish 4th or above.
     
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  14. Gaz_Gammon

    Gaz_Gammon Well-Known Member

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    FA CUP
    2017 Beat Chelsea 2-1
    2015 Beat Aston Villa 4-0
    2014 Beat Hull City 3-2 (aet)

    Charity Shield
    2017 Beat Chelsea 4-1 on pens (aet: after 1-1)
     
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  15. dannythomas

    dannythomas Well-Known Member

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    Do we seriously count the Charity Shield as a trophy ?

    We are much more likely to hold on to our top players by finishing 2nd or 3rd and making progress in the CL with no trophy heading into the new stadium than we would have by winning the League Cup and finishing 5 th.
     
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  16. Bobbins

    Bobbins SC's 14th Sexiest Male 2008

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    How about we keep them by finishing in the top 4 and winning a domestic cup?

    This theory of playing three more games in the League Cup effectively ending our CL qualification chances can really get fucked, it's the most pathetic attempt at justification and has no relation to reality.
     
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  17. dannythomas

    dannythomas Well-Known Member

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    As far as the FA Cup is concerned I think the scrapping of the Cup Winners Cup has definitely led to diminishing the magic of winning the Cup. The Cup Winners Cup was always the number 2 European trophy ahead of the UEFA Cup but now you get the same " reward " of a Europa League spot for both domestic Cup competitions . The reality is that in the old days finishing second or third took you into the UEFA Cup so it meant more to win the FA Cup. Now things have changed. Sad but that's the reality, definitely for the clubs even if fans are divided on the issue.
     
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  18. dannythomas

    dannythomas Well-Known Member

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    I don't disagree with that. All I am saying is that all the best players in the world want to be playing in the Champions League. Sure it would be great if we won the CL, the EPL , the FA Cup and the League Cup.in the same season. But asking the question " which is more important , qualifying for the CL or winning the League Cup ? " is a valid question, not answered by saying " why don't we achieve both ? " Of course we want both , or even more, but that doesn't answer the question .
     
  19. lukespurs7

    lukespurs7 Well-Known Member

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    Game is about glory. End of.
     
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  20. shelfboy68

    shelfboy68 Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree so the option open to the club is match those clubs which we can't or stay out of that Way of doing things which we do.
     

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