Zokora (big Stat thread)

Bus-Conductor

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OK This is my biggest ever stat attempt. I've done it to highlight what I think is an injustice and miss perception by many on here about the viability and ability of Zokora. I can remember fighting what seemed (apart from a couple of others) a lone stand for Lee a couple of seasons ago. I don't know why some players who are valuable and very competent seem to attract scorn which is then jumped on by lemmings (Stalteri, Davids, Lee, Zokora, even Atouba who was actually a better footballer than Edman or Ekotto for example). Now I know these stats don't cover all the bases but I've included a good smattering of the great and good in similar positions or sometimes more attacking just to give perspective. I haven’t included assists for example because Zokora is primarily our DM and would be unfair as this is primarily not the job he is given.

PPM Passes per min = Highest score best
SP% Successful passes and rate = Highest score best
Min PerTackle = Lowest score best

----------------Min------AP(PPM)--SP(%)------T(MPT)

Zokora---------373------270(0.72)--232(90)------17(21.9)

Gerrard---------473------260(0.54)--203(78)-----17(27.8)

Alonso----------438------265(0.60)--206(77)-----16((27.3)

ReoCoker--------540-----207(0.38)--163(79)------40(13.5)

Dunn------------543-----240(0.44)--176(73)------23(23.6)

McCann---------519-----166(0.31)--122(73)------2(20.76)

Carsley---------464------131(0.28)--107(81)-----6(77.3)

Arteta----------629------232(0.36)--182(78)-----19(33.1)

Hamman-------720-------476(0.66)--393(82)-----37(19.45)

Butt----------630-------300(0.47)--218(72)-----31(20.32)

S Davis(Por)---781-----333(0.42)---264(79)-----38(20.5)

Noble-----------459----295(0.64)---240(81)------26(17.6)

Lampard--------450----317(0.70)--274(86)------13(34.6)

Makalele--------243-----224(0.92)--189(84)------10(24.3)

Flamini----------528-----396(0.75)--337(85)------22(24)

Carrick----------400-----392(0.98)--326(83)------19(21)

Fabregas-------521------469(0.90)--368(78)------17(30.6)


What we can see is that he has the best pass completion (inc Fabregas/Gerrad/Alonso/Lampard/Makalele) in this comprehensive premiership comparison.

Now couple this with the fact that he also has a higher passes per minute ratio than all except Makalele, Flamini, Fabregas & Carick.

So he is not only the most accurate passer but also the 4th productive behind some pretty impressive candidates playing in better teams.

As far as tackling goes he has a very similar tackles per minute ratio to McCann, Hamman, Butt, Carrick and is only really bettered meaningfully by Noble and Reo Coker.

Is it time, like Lee, that we start to accept that while he may not be the new Viera/Hoddle highbred some had hoped for, that he is at least a pretty decent footballer who does not deserve the slagging he’s had from some.
 

sloth

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#2
Yup.

Cue the usual stats are meaningless etc etc.

To which there are several good replies but the one I'd like to make on this occasion is that it's worth noting that no stats have ever shown Gerard, Makalele, Lampard etc to be poor whilst the converse is equally true: I've yet to see a stat which shows a piss poor player is in fact good.
 

Real_madyidd

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#3
Couldn't this have been in any of the other threads about him?

Or how about we make a sticky?
 

Pinto

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#4
While I agree with you BC, I think you have to concede that he was piss poor on several occasions last year and some people just don't seem to want to move on from that.

Its so much easier to blame Zokora then fan favorites like Dawson and Robbo, who have both had poor years last year and are continuing that trend while Zokora looks like a much better player this year and getting himself much more stuck in and even throwing in the occasional through ball that actually meets its targets unlike last year when I never saw him looking to attack with his passes just trying to get rid of it.
 

SpurSince57

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#8
One could point out, as has been pointed out numerous times before, that most of Zokora's passes are over a very short range, so he's bound to have a high completion rate. And the tackling's improving. That's getting on for a third of last season's total already. Good-oh.

Yet it's odd that whenever I posted statistics to demonstrate that Mido was, in fact, an effective goalscorer who also contributed a fair share of assists, your invariable response was 'He's shit'. So are you saying that he did deserve the slagging he got from some, yourself included, despite the evidence to the contrary?

Stats-U-Like? Or having cakes and eating them?
 

Bus-Conductor

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One could point out, as has been pointed out numerous times before, that most of Zokora's passes are over a very short range, so he's bound to have a high completion rate. And the tackling's improving. That's getting on for a third of last season's total already. Good-oh.

Yet it's odd that whenever I posted statistics to demonstrate that Mido was, in fact, an effective goalscorer who also contributed a fair share of assists, your invariable response was 'He's shit'. So are you saying that he did deserve the slagging he got from some, yourself included, despite the evidence to the contrary?

Stats-U-Like? Or having cakes and eating them?

So by your criteria Zokora is probably the second best midfielder in the premiership. My cakes or yours ?
 

SpurSince57

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#11
If I'm going to be perfectly honest, I'd say it's a case of good old double standards and wilful misunderstanding on your part.
 

TaoistMonkey

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#12
One could point out, as has been pointed out numerous times before, that most of Zokora's passes are over a very short range, so he's bound to have a high completion rate. And the tackling's improving. That's getting on for a third of last season's total already. Good-oh.

Yet it's odd that whenever I posted statistics to demonstrate that Mido was, in fact, an effective goalscorer who also contributed a fair share of assists, your invariable response was 'He's shit'. So are you saying that he did deserve the slagging he got from some, yourself included, despite the evidence to the contrary?

Stats-U-Like? Or having cakes and eating them?
same could be said against jenas and his "Covering the pitch" crap thats why stats are a big pile of poo :up:
 

Bus-Conductor

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If I'm going to be perfectly honest, I'd say it's a case of good old double standards and wilful misunderstanding on your part.

No SS, it's a good old fashioned case of you realising that your wrong on both players (Jol seems to agree with me too)
and trying to wriggle out of saying OK actually he's not a "dud".

We went over the Mido thing a zillion times. I explained why I thought he wasnot good enough and it seems the club agreed. He had similar stats that year to Marlon Harewood and Bobby Zamora. None of the stats you produced compared him as favourabvly with some of the premierships best. And stats for a striker only concentrate on what happens in the box, when there is so much more (a la Kanoute) that a striker can contribute. You keep fucking banging on about Mido when it was clear I was right, he was an overweight, out of condition, one footed, egotistical bafoon. Obviously Jol, Camoli and Levy thought so too.

Strangely Jol also seems to see something good on Zokora. Is your beloved Jol wrong on both. Or is it just sour grapes onyour part.
 

Spursking

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#14
I have never doubted Zokora's ablility. I know he is one of the best central midfielders in the Premier League, and that is why I wanted him so much at Tottenham. We need a new central midfielder to play alongside him to get the best out of him, I think, but I rate Boateng, Jenas, Huddlestone as good players, and very valuble for Tottenham.
 

double0

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#15
Why people are talking about Zokora when we have such a poor goal keeper is a joke. Zokora is a fine player and does his job in the team, I only wish for others to do theirs.
 

SpurSince57

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In terms of being an adequate substitute for Carrick, a player about whom we could build the team, who would be an automatic first choice in the way Fabregas and Gerrard are, he has so far failed to come up to expectations. In that respect, he's a dud. Last season he varied from good to OK to dire. I don't believe you'll find a single post of mine in which I've ever referred to a current or recent player of ours as shit; two years ago I was defending Salty, Lee and Davids against the morons, the same as you. So if I feel that Zokora hasn't really done what it says on the tin, then I'll say so, if it's all the same to you.

Jol sees so much in Zokora that he dropped him straight after the Everton game; I was only surprised that he didn't haul him off at half-time and put Huddlestone on. The fact is, we don't have an ideal CM pairing, we don't have a single CM that the whole of the SC Selection Committee would unanimously plump for. The nearest is Jenas, and that would give a lot of SCers a big laugh.

The funniest thing is, you're devoting a great deal of effort, not to say hot air, to support a contention that Zokora does a decent job, which is something I wouldn't really disagree with, as an overall summary.

As for Mido, I really can't be bothered. It appears you still haven't got over the disappointment of our offloading the sainted Fredi, and poor old Mido was clearly to blame. I posted stats to compare his performance with Keane, Defoe and Berbatov in 2005-2006. You ignored them. Clearly, Mido's stats are not going to compare with Henry and RvN, or Bent, for that matter (if you insist on the best), but against Yakubu, etc., they stack up pretty well.

And despite your support for Zokora, you persist in dismissing BAE. Now I would be the first to say that BAE was not as good as Lee (and still isn't); in fact, I was one of the first to say it, once we got out of the never-never land of the pre-seasons. But he wasn't a total waste of space in the Tramezzani sense, or even the Taricco sense. The basic ability is there. He was our most effective tackler last season, for one. Yet whilst you champion Zokora you dismiss BAE.

Goodness! I've just realised you have admitted Zokora is a DM, if with the caveat of 'primarily'. I have the strangest recollection of your claiming that he wasn't in a past Zokora argument, probably with Joey; and that, despite Zoko's statement that he was, indeed, a DM. Didn't you claim he was wrong?
 

roguepsi

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#17
But if he makes 99 accurate but sideways passes and then 1 that sets up a goal for the other team, do the stats really tell the whole story?
 

Bus-Conductor

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In terms of being an adequate substitute for Carrick, a player about whom we could build the team, who would be an automatic first choice in the way Fabregas and Gerrard are, he has so far failed to come up to expectations. In that respect, he's a dud. Last season he varied from good to OK to dire. I don't believe you'll find a single post of mine in which I've ever referred to a current or recent player of ours as shit; two years ago I was defending Salty, Lee and Davids against the morons, the same as you. So if I feel that Zokora hasn't really done what it says on the tin, then I'll say so, if it's all the same to you.

Jol sees so much in Zokora that he dropped him straight after the Everton game; I was only surprised that he didn't haul him off at half-time and put Huddlestone on. The fact is, we don't have an ideal CM pairing, we don't have a single CM that the whole of the SC Selection Committee would unanimously plump for. The nearest is Jenas, and that would give a lot of SCers a big laugh.

The funniest thing is, you're devoting a great deal of effort, not to say hot air, to support a contention that Zokora does a decent job, which is something I wouldn't really disagree with, as an overall summary.

As for Mido, I really can't be bothered. It appears you still haven't got over the disappointment of our offloading the sainted Fredi, and poor old Mido was clearly to blame. I posted stats to compare his performance with Keane, Defoe and Berbatov in 2005-2006. You ignored them. Clearly, Mido's stats are not going to compare with Henry and RvN, or Bent, for that matter (if you insist on the best), but against Yakubu, etc., they stack up pretty well.

And despite your support for Zokora, you persist in dismissing BAE. Now I would be the first to say that BAE was not as good as Lee (and still isn't); in fact, I was one of the first to say it, once we got out of the never-never land of the pre-seasons. But he wasn't a total waste of space in the Tramezzani sense, or even the Taricco sense. The basic ability is there. He was our most effective tackler last season, for one. Yet whilst you champion Zokora you dismiss BAE.

Goodness! I've just realised you have admitted Zokora is a DM, if with the caveat of 'primarily'. I have the strangest recollection of your claiming that he wasn't in a past Zokora argument, probably with Joey; and that, despite Zoko's statement that he was, indeed, a DM. Didn't you claim he was wrong?
WTF are you saying exactly, because I really am not sure what that post was all about.

Just for the record I said this:

I haven’t included assists for example because Zokora is primarily our DM and would be unfair as this is primarily not the job he is given.

Whatever any of us think his strengths and weaknesses, that is "primarily" the role he is given by Jol. Is that wrong ?
 

Bus-Conductor

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You seem to be devoting a great deal of effort to telling me what exactly ?

Do you still think that Zokora is shit ? yes ? no ?

Do you still think that Mido was great ?

Would you still prefer Bent to Torres ?

Buy Kanoute now or Mido ???????
 
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