Zokora isn't the player we hoped.

[greavesie]

Wenger actually put in a bid at the time

WAS'NT WENDY AFTER HIM AS WELL, THINK I HAVE HEARD THIS SOMEWHERE

 

[thfcsteff]

Anybody that thinks that Zokora is causing us more problems than Dawson is an idiot.

Joey if only your microscopic analysis of all things Zokora was applied evenly to others I'd respect your opinion more.

And Carrick was a decent player, but was not the world beater you keep making out. Which is probably why he sometimes doesn't start or is subbed for ManU and why they are not at the top of the league despite having the best defence and atack in the prtemiership.

An idiot eh?
Lovely.

I think anyone who cannot acknowledge the role our frankly, weak, powder puff central midfield has had in loading up the pressure onto our already over-worked and under-quality staffed defence is an idiot. And the main culprit for that, in my 'idiotic' opinion, is Didier Zokora.

Does the man have more potential than Dawson as a footballer? Yes.
Has he progressed at all since he arrived?
Absolutely not.
Does he know how to tackle when it counts?
Nope. Couldn't tackle his dinner with conviction.

I held out great hope for him for a season-plus, and I still
wonder if Ramos and Poyet will help bring him to the next level.
But I wouldn't hold your breath.

Finally, remember that a lot of our goals conceded begin with balls which come through the midfield areas/30-40 yards out where you'd expect a decent midfielder to be helping mop up.
Of course Zokora is not naturally a defensive midfielder, and
is better utilized as an emergency defender. But call me an idiot, I'd rather get him out for a while, play Tainio in the middle with Jenas and get one of our returning CBs in there alongside, yes, Michael Dawson...

None of them are helped by Robbo of course, who inspires no confidence it appears...

 

[dannythomas]

Joey your fucking dillusional mate. You really do believe that Zokora is to blame for everything and not the fact that dawson is a hapless donkey, Robinson a fat flapper and Chimbonda a stylish wanker.

Zokora was to blame for the goal at West Ham and the first v Aalborg ? Joey you are fucking clueless when it comes to football. Zokora may have been an unwilling accessory to a cluster fuck but he was a little way down the que no matter how biased a slant you want to put on it. Just watch the Aalborg goal again and tell me what the fuck Dawson was doing and why he took so long to react to the way play unfolded. or why Lennon and jenas and keane did fuck all as they didn't have the responsibility of leaving another player in a dangerous position that Zokora had and were nearer.

A you seriously telling us that you think Dawson is less detrimental to this team than Zokora ?

YES.

 

[Eric_s]

[/b]


YES.

You are an idiot.

 

[justfookinhitit]

The question should not be "what are the players like now?" - it should be "are the players good enough to take us to the next level?". And at the moment I am not convinced that either Dawson or Zokora can take us to the next level. Now maybe Ramos is able to uncover talent that Jol couldn't, and if he can I'll be delighted, but I'd have to say it is pretty unlikely.

In my humble opinion I think Zokora is playing better now than he ever has for spurs, but I still don't feel he is at the level we need going forwards.

Dawson played really well last season, leading the defence admirably when King was out, but he's had a bit of a crisis of confidence this season and has taken va step backwards. But I think his performances of last season are the best we can hope to get and that isn't up to the level we need.

Guess we will see what Ramos chooses to do, but if he doesn't sign CB's or CM's in January don't take it that he won't sign them in the summer. I'll be very surprised if these 2 are in the starting 11 at the start of next season.

 

[dannythomas]

You are an idiot.

Well I suppose I had better spell it out. An idiot's guide to the strengths and weaknesses of Didier Zokora,

He has as much skill as Andy Booth, the passing of Stewart Nethercott, tackles like Jimmy Greaves, shoots like Steffen Freund, heads like Jermain Defoe. He has the first touch of Gary Doherty and the tactical awareness of Ian Moores.

Put Ledley King next to Dawson and he will be a solid central defender . Put Messi or Ronaldinho or Fabregas next to Zokora and he will still be crap.

 

[Andy]

Well I suppose I had better spell it out. An idiot's guide to the strengths and weaknesses of Didier Zokora,

He has as much skill as Andy Booth, the passing of Stewart Nethercott, tackles like Jimmy Greaves, shoots like Steffen Freund, heads like Jermain Defoe. He has the first touch of Gary Doherty and the tactical awareness of Ian Moores.

Put Ledley King next to Dawson and he will be a solid central defender . Put Messi or Ronaldinho or Fabregas next to Zokora and he will still be crap.

three things there,the first is for the one bolded,

1ifferent positions on the pitch and totally different positional comparrisons,

2:Zokora also does have some tactical awareness ,how many time have you seen him chase back and win the ball in the past few games,
3: factually wrong about the passing too,as shown earlier in this thread and also on other opta stats site Zokora's passing was a high figure for the last game and Nethercott could never have done that!

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Well I suppose I had better spell it out. An idiot's guide to the strengths and weaknesses of Didier Zokora,

He has as much skill as Andy Booth, the passing of Stewart Nethercott, tackles like Jimmy Greaves, shoots like Steffen Freund, heads like Jermain Defoe. He has the first touch of Gary Doherty and the tactical awareness of Ian Moores.

Put Ledley King next to Dawson and he will be a solid central defender . Put Messi or Ronaldinho or Fabregas next to Zokora and he will still be crap.

If you think about it really hard, you have actually described Dawson perfectly.

As far as Zokora goes I refer you to SS57's stat above or the thread I started a few weeks ago which showed Zokora had (at that time) the equal best passing stats in the premier.

Everybody has the right to be a stupid ****. Some people just abuse that right don't they ?

 

[SpurSince57]

Zokora is not my favourite player by any means, but that set of comparisons is totally ridiculous.

The latest stats are available at:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ma...d=F17&targetRule=10&team=6&teamname=Tottenham

For some reason Sky have altered their presentation of OPTA stats this season and rendered them pretty useless for comparison purposes. The Telegraph's are far better.

As far as Sunday's game goes, Zokora, Keane, Bale and Lee all had a passing accuracy of 90% or better, whilst Chimbonda, the Hudd and Malbranque were 80% or better. The big let-downs were Berbatov and Kaboul, at under 60% (!).

 

[markie]

Zokora is not my favourite player by any means, but that set of comparisons is totally ridiculous.

The latest stats are available at:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ma...d=F17&targetRule=10&team=6&teamname=Tottenham

For some reason Sky have altered their presentation of OPTA stats this season and rendered them pretty useless for comparison purposes. The Telegraph's are far better.

As far as Sunday's game goes, Zokora, Keane, Bale and Lee all had a passing accuracy of 90% or better, whilst Chimbonda, the Hudd and Malbranque were 80% or better. The big let-downs were Berbatov and Kaboul, at under 60% (!).

You have to remember that 80% of his passes are sideways or backwards to players close to him..... :hello:

 

[dannythomas]

If you think about it really hard, you have actually described Dawson perfectly.

As far as Zokora goes I refer you to SS57's stat above or the thread I started a few weeks ago which showed Zokora had (at that time) the equal best passing stats in the premier.

Everybody has the right to be a stupid ****. Some people just abuse that right don't they ?

Any stats on how many of those passes actually go forwards ?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

You have to remember that 80% of his passes are sideways or backwards to players close to him..... :hello:

This is such a stupid thing to say. Most passes made are simple passes. Or at least they should be. It's only when you watch England play that you reaise how difficult simple passes are.

If you want to atch 50 yard passes forward why don't you go and watch Watford. It's not far away and probably easier to park.

 

[Has1978]

I think they're both sub rate.

Dawson is rubbish. Take away his brave headers and lunges he's really a very mediocre defender. Positionally all over the place, clumsy tackler, bambi on ice with the ball and the inability to pass the ball forward without clubbing it 70 fucking yards. Touch of a baby elepahnt and it bugs the hell out of me. Once all the others are fit, I'd have Dawson as 4th choice CB and hope Juande feels the same.

Zokora isn't as accountable as the defenders but he's pretty damn average. As part of 2 man CM I don't see that he offers enough. Passing, tackling, creativity wise. Just a formidable athlete. Come January, I'm praying we sign a replacement for him.

Wish I could disagree with a single word of that, but I can't.

The only thing I would perhaps add is that Zokora looks better as a very very deep lying midfilder putting out fires.

 

[joey55]

The deeper a midfield player plays the more accurate his passes will be. Passing % stats are poitnless. Fabregas is currently at 80%, but for much of the season was in the mid 70's. Yet he's one of the best passers in the Prem. William Gallas has a passing % of 96%, yet I really doesn't think he is good passer. At Chelsea Obi Mikel has a success rate of 91%, whilst Lampard and Essien are in the low 80's. Drogba is on 52% which puts Berbs passing into perspective. The reason is simple, the higher you play up the pitch the less time you have on the ball and the less options you have, as you are surrunded by opposition players. If you pick the ball up in front of your own defence, you are in the middle of the entire team and have options all around you.

 

[WhiteHart4Ever]

The deeper a midfield player plays the more accurate his passes will be. Passing % stats are poitnless. Fabregas is currently at 80%, but for much of the season was in the mid 70's. Yet he's one of the best passers in the Prem. William Gallas has a passing % of 96%, yet I really doesn't think he is good passer. At Chelsea Obi Mikel has a success rate of 91%, whilst Lampard and Essien are in the low 80's. Drogba is on 52% which puts Berbs passing into perspective. The reason is simple, the higher you play up the pitch the less time you have on the ball and the less options you have, as you are surrunded by opposition players. If you pick the ball up in front of your own defence, you are in the middle of the entire team and have options all around you.

But you will consider John Obi Mikel a great passer? The role he or Makelele plays at Chelsea is crucial to the overall balance in the team. And Zokora has the potential to be that good. The way I see it, his passing is good, but too often his closing down isnt good enough, so that players get past him.

Now, you might say that Mikel can play that role cause Chelsea got a three man CM. However, I argue that we do too. Very, very often Malbranque, Zokora and Jenas plays the midfield three, with Keane drifting out to the left with Bale coming up to support him.

 

[markie]

But you will consider John Obi Mikel a great passer? The role he or Makelele plays at Chelsea is crucial to the overall balance in the team. And Zokora has the potential to be that good. The way I see it, his passing is good, but too often his closing down isnt good enough, so that players get past him.

Now, you might say that Mikel can play that role cause Chelsea got a three man CM. However, I argue that we do too. Very, very often Malbranque, Zokora and Jenas plays the midfield three, with Keane drifting out to the left with Bale coming up to support him.

There is no way on earth that he will ever be that good... Stop kidding yourself...

 

[joey55]

But you will consider John Obi Mikel a great passer? The role he or Makelele plays at Chelsea is crucial to the overall balance in the team. And Zokora has the potential to be that good. The way I see it, his passing is good, but too often his closing down isnt good enough, so that players get past him.

Now, you might say that Mikel can play that role cause Chelsea got a three man CM. However, I argue that we do too. Very, very often Malbranque, Zokora and Jenas plays the midfield three, with Keane drifting out to the left with Bale coming up to support him.

I've always said Zokora has potential to play in a 3 cm. But there is far more to the holding role than simple passing. The key to being successful in the position is not simple distribution, as many fans often seem to think it is. The most important part of the role is positional disicpline. You don't need a holding player to distribute the ball simply. Any midfielder can do that. The first rule of the holding role is to never get caught in front of the ball. Every other player on the pitch can, except for the holding player. Hence, pundits etc often talk about how the holding player frees the other midfielder up, as he can get forward without worrying. The only times it is acceptable for the holding player to be in front of the ball, is when it is hoofed over the top and therefore the defenders should be able to deal with it, or if a diagnol ball is played out wide. Other than in those circumstances, the holding player should always be behind the ball, between the attacing players and the defence.

The cardinal sin, is to allow the ball, to get in behind him and between the defenders, thus exposing the back 4. Hence people talk of the holding player shielding or protecting the back 4. The holding player can't chase the ball or committ to the tackle unless he's sure to win it, otherwise he gets dragged out of position and gaps appear between the midfield and defence. Zokora is always being dragged out of positon. Hence a number of fans (including myself) get very frustrated by him. I genuinley think those who defend him, simply aren't aware of his lack of discipline or positional awareness and how costly it is to us. It's easy to spot mistakes made by CBs etc, but the holding role is more techincal and therefore alot of fans don't notice big positonal errors. Zokora has a nasty habbit of chasing runners when the ball is in front of him and then when it goes behind him and he actually should be tracking, he doesn't.

 

[WhiteHart4Ever]

There is no way on earth that he will ever be that good... Stop kidding yourself...

Why not? He has the passing ability, and he is a great athlete. He needs some serious guiding, but if Ramos is as good as I believe he is in getting the best out of players I believe he can make a Makelele out of Zokora. A formidable task, but far from impossible.

 

[WhiteHart4Ever]

I've always said Zokora has potential to play in a 3 cm. But there is far more to the holding role than simple passing. The key to being successful in the position is not simple distribution, as many fans often seem to think it is. The most important part of the role is positional disicpline. You don't need a holding player to distribute the ball simply. Any midfielder can do that. The first rule of the holding role is to never get caught in front of the ball. Every other player on the pitch can, except for the holding player. Hence, pundits etc often talk about how the holding player frees the other midfielder up, as he can get forward without worrying. The only times it is acceptable for the holding player to be in front of the ball, is when it is hoofed over the top and therefore the defenders should be able to deal with it, or if a diagnol ball is played out wide. Other than in those circumstances, the holding player should always be behind the ball, between the attacing players and the defence.

The cardinal sin, is to allow the ball, to get in behind him and between the defenders, thus exposing the back 4. Hence people talk of the holding player shielding or protecting the back 4. The holding player can't chase the ball or committ to the tackle unless he's sure to win it, otherwise he gets dragged out of position and gaps appear between the midfield and defence. Zokora is always being dragged out of positon. Hence a number of fans (including myself) get very frustrated by him. I genuinley think those who defend him, simply aren't aware of his lack of discipline or positional awareness and how costly it is to us. It's easy to spot mistakes made by CBs etc, but the holding role is more techincal and therefore alot of fans don't notice big positonal errors. Zokora has a nasty habbit of chasing runners when the ball is in front of him and then when it goes behind him and he actually should be tracking, he doesn't.

Now, I agree with what you are saying. However, I argue that he can become a player that doesnt make these mistakes with the right guidance. He has the physical and technical abilities.

In addition to his tactical mistakes youre mentioning, the main focus must be to improve the way he closes down players. Because, as you point out, he cannot let the attacking players get in between him and the defenders.

Of course I know that there is more to a holding midfielder than simple passes...

 

[joey55]

Now, I agree with what you are saying. However, I argue that he can become a player that doesnt make these mistakes with the right guidance. He has the physical and technical abilities.

In addition to his tactical mistakes youre mentioning, the main focus must be to improve the way he closes down players. Because, as you point out, he cannot let the attacking players get in between him and the defenders.

Of course I know that there is more to a holding midfielder than simple passes...

He can only close down players in and around the box and that shouldn't be a focus, that should be a given. At 27 years old, it shouldn't be an area he needs attention on. Further up the pitch, he shouldn't really be closing players down, as oppossed to positioning himself so that it limits the options of attacking players. If he closes down too much, there is the danger of being dragged out of positon. Essentially he has to stick to the line between the centre spot and the penalty spot and only moving a little way either side, depending on the where the ball is. If he does move of this line he has to ensure he wins the ball, such as when he charge across the pitch and puts in a meaty tackle, as he likes to from time to time. The worst thing he can do, is go to close down, and allow a midfield runner to get in behind him and recieve the ball. That is why discipline is so vital in that role and why Makelele is so good at it. Zokora lacks the discipline, positonal awarness and decision making. This is why Zokora is so good when he is the last man. He doesn't have any decsions to make, he has no choice but to committ and we see him charging in and making great last ditch tackles. It's when he has thinking to do that problems occur.

But in general, as for the right guidance, he's been coached by Martin Jol, who turned Michael Carrick into one of the best in the world in that positon and Eli Baup who did the same with Makelele. If he has worked with argualby the two best coaches there are for that role and still hasn't got it at the age of 27. So I think you are being very hopefull that this will change. He's made 3 classic holding role errors in the last 3 games under Ramos, so i see no sign of change.