Zokora isn't the player we hoped.

[AnotherSpursFan]

If Zokora is worth 8 million, i'll rather buy 7 atoubas.
At least atoubs can dribble past players.
He does...

 

[Beni]

I think Zokoras ok, not great and can be improved on, but certainly capable of being a starter for us.

I like some of Zokoras qualities, work rate and energy, the way he always likes to switch the play to the flanks, and in general his love to play and converse with the fans.
I think he gets caught out of position sometimes because we have a very offensive team. Our full backs, wingers, Jenas all like to get forward, in doing so, Zokora often finds himself caught 2 v 1 when the opposition counter attack, giving fans the opinion he lacks positional awareness, which isnt entirely the case.

As Joey says, he would be better in a 3 man midfield. Unfortunately that would mean dropping 1 of our forwards, to accomodate it.
Having Zokoras abilities, mixed with Huddlestones and Jenas, would work well in my opinion, its a shame that Jol and, as of yet Ramos haven't tried it, but I put that down to having 4 top forwards to keep happy, as the reason for that.

 

[Beni]

If Zokora is worth 8 million, i'll rather buy 7 atoubas.
At least atoubs can dribble past players.
He does...

Then you obviously haven't been watching our games then.

Zokoras has many faults, and I'd let you get away with saying, his final ball is bad, or his shooting is awful, and even his positional play isnt all thats cracked up to be.

But, saying he can't dribble past players, is the one thing that he is very good at.
I can think of numerous of occassions where we have been in a defending positional, and his sudden bursts of pace to dribble past players, have got us from defending to attacking positions, all being his final ball lets him down at times.

 

[joey55]

I think Zokoras ok, not great and can be improved on, but certainly capable of being a starter for us.

I like some of Zokoras qualities, work rate and energy, the way he always likes to switch the play to the flanks, and in general his love to play and converse with the fans.
I think he gets caught out of position sometimes because we have a very offensive team. Our full backs, wingers, Jenas all like to get forward, in doing so, Zokora often finds himself caught 2 v 1 when the opposition counter attack, giving fans the opinion he lacks positional awareness, which isnt entirely the case.

As Joey says, he would be better in a 3 man midfield. Unfortunately that would mean dropping 1 of our forwards, to accomodate it.
Having Zokoras abilities, mixed with Huddlestones and Jenas, would work well in my opinion, its a shame that Jol and, as of yet Ramos haven't tried it, but I put that down to having 4 top forwards to keep happy, as the reason for that.

That is true, like all DMs he gets caught 2 v 1, but sometimes he drops back along a central line, as Makelele et al would, and plays the positonal game, which is the correct thing to do. But often he panics and committs to one of the two players. 2 v 1 situations are classic examples of when the discipline and decision making has to come into play. He is often too instinctive and committs rather than thinks. When he has dropped back into defence in recent games, he ahsn't had to worry about what is going on behind him, as it is obvioulsy all in front of him and he has looked far more comfortbale. I think he is at his best in what Yanno describes as an attacking CB role. It just simplifies so much for him.

 

[markie]

Why not? He has the passing ability, and he is a great athlete. He needs some serious guiding, but if Ramos is as good as I believe he is in getting the best out of players I believe he can make a Makelele out of Zokora. A formidable task, but far from impossible.

:stupid:

I actually cannot believe you think he could ever be as good as Makalele..... Zokora is the sort of player that will never be good enough due to not having a good footballing brain. He may be a very good athlete and he can pass but he is nowhere near as good as huddlestone in the DM position and we should never have signed him to try and play there. His positioning is awful, he is constantly getting lost in games, he gives away the ball far to much and makes rash challenges, he also likes to turn his back on shots .....

If Ramos can tidy all these things up and make him a decent player I will literally eat my hat...

 

[WhiteHart4Ever]

He can only close down players in and around the box and that shouldn't be a focus, that should be a given. At 27 years old, it shouldn't be an area he needs attention on. Further up the pitch, he shouldn't really be closing players down, as oppossed to positioning himself so that it limits the options of attacking players. If he closes down too much, there is the danger of being dragged out of positon. Essentially he has to stick to the line between the centre spot and the penalty spot and only moving a little way either side, depending on the where the ball is. If he does move of this line he has to ensure he wins the ball, such as when he charge across the pitch and puts in a meaty tackle, as he likes to from time to time. The worst thing he can do, is go to close down, and allow a midfield runner to get in behind him and recieve the ball. That is why discipline is so vital in that role and why Makelele is so good at it. Zokora lacks the discipline, positonal awarness and decision making.

Maybe my english is letting me down: My definition of closing down: Put pressure on the player in possesion to limit his passing/moving possibilities and potentially take the ball from him. That a holding players does and should do not only in and around the box....

On the positioning, i strongly disagree with you. The strenght of good holding midfielders is their ability to move into the right position to intercept the ball. Him hardly moving from line between the penalty spot and centre spot is not a very good advice...

 

[doowaa]

Break the bank and sign mascherano in January. Oh my, the very thought. Woo. I need to lie down.

 

[joey55]

Maybe my english is letting me down: My definition of closing down: Put pressure on the player in possesion to limit his passing/moving possibilities and potentially take the ball from him. That a holding players does and should do not only in and around the box....

On the positioning, i strongly disagree with you. The strenght of good holding midfielders is their ability to move into the right position to intercept the ball. Him hardly moving from line between the penalty spot and centre spot is not a very good advice...

Watch any holding player play and that is what they'll do. They intercept that ball because of their good positonal sense. You'll rarely see Makelele diverging from a line central to that of the play. Whilst conversley a player like Hargreaves or Gattusso will be all over the pitch closing down, harrying and putting in the tackles. There is a distinction to made between a holding DM and a ball winning destroyer type CM. If the holding player goes chasing down the ball, it is just going to leave gaps, hences you'll often hear terms such as "sitting" in front of the back 4, when talking about the holding player. I haven't said he shouldn't move off a central line, but that when he does he has to be sure of winning the ball and this again comes down to decision making.

 

[thfcsteff]

This is such a stupid thing to say. Most passes made are simple passes. Or at least they should be. It's only when you watch England play that you reaise how difficult simple passes are.

If you want to atch 50 yard passes forward why don't you go and watch Watford. It's not far away and probably easier to park.

But it's about DECISION MAKING...of course the short pass can be king, Zidane made a beautiful career spending 75 mins playing 5 yard passes TO THE RIGHT PLACES before unleasing the od 'hollywood spectacular'...anyone who pkays and coaches klnows the value of simple, short, progressive passing...the problem with Zokora is that he nearly ALWAYS shapes to play BACKWARDS when in the midfield, and when he is carrying the ball forward he seems unable to turn, run 5 yards, release, run on, receive, create...

It's a lack of deeper footballing intelligence.
He has all the tools but he has simply not developed them since arriving.
If any midfielder we have should be able to turn, pass, run, receive and creae, it's him. But he cannot/does not. Frustrating.

He'll be much better where he is tonight as he is deep deep deeper, however he'd better get his tackles right or else it'll be
knife-to-butter time...

With regards to being a Makalele, never. That position takes a special mentality; it's why Makalele is so uniquely great there because few can play it properly.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

That is true, like all DMs he gets caught 2 v 1, but sometimes he drops back along a central line, as Makelele et al would, and plays the positonal game, which is the correct thing to do. But often he panics and committs to one of the two players. 2 v 1 situations are classic examples of when the discipline and decision making has to come into play. He is often too instinctive and committs rather than thinks. When he has dropped back into defence in recent games, he ahsn't had to worry about what is going on behind him, as it is obvioulsy all in front of him and he has looked far more comfortbale. I think he is at his best in what Yanno describes as an attacking CB role. It just simplifies so much for him.

But if you watch the Aalborg first goal this is exactly what he didn't do and got slated for it. He was left with a choice of leaving the player in a far more dangerous central position or hope that Lennon, Jenas, keane or Dawson would get a tackle or at least a block.

I've said the same about a 5 midfield for a long time. It would compensate for all our CM's weaknesses and play more to their strengths but another option might be to try giving Jenas the deeper role. Give jenas the responsibility as I think he has a great engine and is a great at getting those long legs into tackles. if you could make sure Zokora/other CM would drop in when jenas went forward occasionally it could be the answer (jenas is after all, the nearest I've seen to Viera in many ways bar mentality).

 

[Bus-Conductor]

But it's about DECISION MAKING...of course the short pass can be king, Zidane made a beautiful career spending 75 mins playing 5 yard passes TO THE RIGHT PLACES before unleasing the od 'hollywood spectacular'...anyone who pkays and coaches klnows the value of simple, short, progressive passing...the problem with Zokora is that he nearly ALWAYS shapes to play BACKWARDS when in the midfield, and when he is carrying the ball forward he seems unable to turn, run 5 yards, release, run on, receive, create...

It's a lack of deeper footballing intelligence.
He has all the tools but he has simply not developed them since arriving.
If any midfielder we have should be able to turn, pass, run, receive and creae, it's him. But he cannot/does not. Frustrating.

He'll be much better where he is tonight as he is deep deep deeper, however he'd better get his tackles right or else it'll be
knife-to-butter time...

With regards to being a Makalele, never. That position takes a special mentality; it's why Makalele is so uniquely great there because few can play it properly.

Before blaming Zokora for this try watching the other plyers around him and the options he has. Watch how many times Keane (particularly) stands static two metres from Berbatov or takes up a stupid position and calls for the ball. and Berbatov often does the same. Watch how many times the pair of them offer themselves for a ball (rather than turning their back and expecting a defence splitting through ball).

It's not just Zokora, but Lennon and malbranque and Jenas all suffer the same fate. It is one of the reasons we have so much possession and often create so few quality chances.

It was actually Zokora's run & pass that led to the penalty Sunday. And it's not the first time this season that he's done this (Bolton definately springs to mind and I'm sure there have been a couple of others)

 

[hodspurs]

hes done well holding since ramos came in,he need to stop sticking him in the back four.jol never played him as a real holding player which we really needed,ramos has doine it stright away..

 

[thfcsteff]

Before blaming Zokora for this try watching the other plyers around him and the options he has. Watch how many times Keane (particularly) stands static two metres from Berbatov or takes up a stupid position and calls for the ball. and Berbatov often does the same. Watch how many times the pair of them offer themselves for a ball (rather than turning their back and expecting a defence splitting through ball).

It's not just Zokora, but Lennon and malbranque and Jenas all suffer the same fate. It is one of the reasons we have so much possession and often create so few quality chances.

It was actually Zokora's run & pass that led to the penalty Sunday. And it's not the first time this season that he's done this (Bolton definately springs to mind and I'm sure there have been a couple of others)

Movement is certainly a problem, I wouldn't disagree, and Keano does sometimes drop way too deep/not move like an
off-the-blocks striker, but I still have to say that I've seen his decision making as repeatedly average to poor.

He wasobviously better tonight due to being placed back as far a you can go without being a goalie, but again, his misjudgement opened up the dor for error part 59...not just his fault of course, but let's be fair, you have to win those balls if you're going to go for them.

It's a shame because he has every attribute; who knows, it might yet happen, but if it does, he will not be our DM but a box-to-box boy...

 

[Juande_Ramos]

The deeper a midfield player plays the more accurate his passes will be. Passing % stats are poitnless. Fabregas is currently at 80%, but for much of the season was in the mid 70's. Yet he's one of the best passers in the Prem. William Gallas has a passing % of 96%, yet I really doesn't think he is good passer. At Chelsea Obi Mikel has a success rate of 91%, whilst Lampard and Essien are in the low 80's. Drogba is on 52% which puts Berbs passing into perspective. The reason is simple, the higher you play up the pitch the less time you have on the ball and the less options you have, as you are surrunded by opposition players. If you pick the ball up in front of your own defence, you are in the middle of the entire team and have options all around you.

There are other factors too. Some players receive more attention than others and when they get the ball they are more tightly marked. Also, how the coach sets-up the team to play affects the completed pass percentage: things like off the ball movement by your teammates, style of play (long or short ball), etc afect these percentages.

 

[ultimateloner]

Agree with the insightful comment above about Zokora's lack of positional sense and discipline. He can't use his brain.

For this reason I think Ramos is tatical astute because he knows Zokora and therefore moves him to the backline where his task becomes simpler. This complements his atheleticism.

However I would expand this to cover most people in our team. Who in our current team has genuine positional sense? There are 2 - King and Malbranque. Needless to comment on King cuz it's fairly obvious. With Malbranque I think he gets into good positions, and given his close ball control, he tends to make enough space to crack at goal.