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Zokora

Stoof

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Jun 5, 2004
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Attacking Centre Back. He was made for that position.

Well, more accurately, that position was kind of made for him. :?

Why rock the boat by putting him back in the team?

*finally gets wishes*
 

Bus-Conductor

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Oct 19, 2004
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Yanno
I actually started to pen this reply to your oiginal Zokora comparison that you posted the link to above. Your assessment of Zokora's passing is - like alot of people's - wrong. I posted a thread a couple of months ago which compared the passing stats for about 20 of the prems best/good cm's. Zokora had the joint best pass completion rate (which was high eighties if I remember) and the 3rd best attempt rate (proving that his good average wasn't just down to few passes made).

I don't think Tainio will make as many passes as Zokora will in any game. What Tainio can do is sit and protect the defence in a simple way - I'm not undervaluing this by the way - and against some sides, that is exactly what is required.

Ohara's willingness to put his foot in is admirable but he is clumbsy and gives away free kicks often. His passing is good. But while his long range passing may be marginally better than Zokora's, he also suffers from being master of none but jack of a few trades.

The truth is that none of our other CM's (other than Jenas) are the complete article. They all possess a good set of skills without really excelling spectacularly in any of them.

Huddlestone has the opposite problem. Whilst he excells at passing the ball, his physical and mental dexterity are lacking.

I think this is why we were trying to buy Tiago. Who is a bit like an upgrade on all three fronts (Tainio, Zokora, Ohara) in one package. He can tackle, he can pass effeciently and has the energy of Zokora.
 

yanno

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Aug 1, 2003
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Yanno
I actually started to pen this reply to your oiginal Zokora comparison that you posted the link to above. Your assessment of Zokora's passing is - like alot of people's - wrong. I posted a thread a couple of months ago which compared the passing stats for about 20 of the prems best/good cm's. Zokora had the joint best pass completion rate (which was high eighties if I remember) and the 3rd best attempt rate (proving that his good average wasn't just down to few passes made).

B-C I respect your opinion. However, in general, I think passing stats are highly misleading. Indeed, nearly all football statistics have to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. There are so many variables that they fail to take into account. In Zokora's case, I suspect the reason why he has a high completion rate will almost certainly be because of the lack of ambition and lack of range in his passing. I'm sure Ray Wilkins, in his square ball days, would have had a fantastic completion rate.

I know from watching a player like Carrick that he has "pictures in his head". In other words, he sees the pass long before he plays it, and this is what gives him the time to play confidently and effectively in very tight areas. I remember seeing Carrick as a young teenager playing for the U21s, and his outstanding passing ability was plain as day. Equally, from a season and a half of watching Zokora, I know that he doesn't have "pictures in his head", he doesn't see the pass early, so he often ends up just shuffling it on to the nearest player. And no statistical analysis is ever going to change my opinion on this.

Tainio plays with his head up, and has decent vision. I've seen him play a couple of reverse balls that Zokora won't make even if he plays till he's 98. And O'Hara also plays with his head up, is neat and tidy, and can see and deliver a long ball as well as anyone in the squad with the exception of Huddlestone.

B-C I'm sure you'll disagree with this. And as above, I respect your opinion. But mine is that Zokora will always be patchy and limited in his passing range, even if the stats show that he completes a lot of passes.
 

Rocksuperstar

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as an interlude from the discussion, here's a quote i just read in the daily mail from Zokora, saying how he sat down and watched the Spurs/Woolwich game with Toure:

Some shit-rag said:
To be deprived of the chance to perform in such a big club game irritated Zokora, but not half as much as the taunts of Ivory Coast team-mate, and Arsenal centre back, Kolo Toure while they watched the games together on TV - at least in the early stages of the tie.


Spurs' 5-1 triumph in the second leg handed the club their first win over Arsenal for nine years and booked a place in the Carling Cup Final against Chelsea on 24 February.
It means the timing of the 26-year-old's return to Juande Ramos's squad couldn't be better - although his first priority is to help Tottenham get a positive result at Slavia Prague in the first leg of their Uefa Cup last-32 tie tonight.


Nevertheless, having bragging rights over Toure and the prospect of playing at Wembley have ensured he will take to the field in the best of spirits.


Zokora said: "I missed my team-mates while I was in Africa, but all of them did well. I kept in touch with all the results. I was able to watch every game on TV and we had many good performances.


"I watched the Tottenham-Arsenal games with Kolo and when Spurs won I was very happy, but Kolo wanted to fight me because he was upset! <-- :lol:

"I told him this is the first time we had beaten them for nearly 10 years and it was a great day for the club and the fans. I said I was sorry but I was very happy to get to the final.


"After the result there was also a lot of talk between me and Didier Drogba and Salomon Kalou, the Chelsea players in the Ivory Coast squad.


"Didier was saying that he has won this trophy two times with Chelsea and I couldn't say anything in reply. But I will do my talking on the pitch and I told him 'I will see you on 24 February'.



I like that thought - Toure squaring up to a laughing Zokora as the 4th goal goes in :lol:

Nice quotes, especially considering the anti-news this particular paper usually churns out - would've been cool to have been a fly on the wall with Zoko, Toure, Drogba and Kalou in the room having that discussion too :up:
 

Bus-Conductor

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Oct 19, 2004
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B-C I respect your opinion. However, in general, I think passing stats are highly misleading. Indeed, nearly all football statistics have to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. There are so many variables that they fail to take into account. In Zokora's case, I suspect the reason why he has a high completion rate will almost certainly be because of the lack of ambition and lack of range in his passing. I'm sure Ray Wilkins, in his square ball days, would have had a fantastic completion rate.

I know from watching a player like Carrick that he has "pictures in his head". In other words, he sees the pass long before he plays it, and this is what gives him the time to play confidently and effectively in very tight areas. I remember seeing Carrick as a young teenager playing for the U21s, and his outstanding passing ability was plain as day. Equally, from a season and a half of watching Zokora, I know that he doesn't have "pictures in his head", he doesn't see the pass early, so he often ends up just shuffling it on to the nearest player. And no statistical analysis is ever going to change my opinion on this.

Tainio plays with his head up, and has decent vision. I've seen him play a couple of reverse balls that Zokora won't make even if he plays till he's 98. And O'Hara also plays with his head up, is neat and tidy, and can see and deliver a long ball as well as anyone in the squad with the exception of Huddlestone.

B-C I'm sure you'll disagree with this. And as above, I respect your opinion. But mine is that Zokora will always be patchy and limited in his passing range, even if the stats show that he completes a lot of passes.


I agree that as far as stats go they can mislead. SS57's Mido stats are a great example. You'll notice I wasn't using the stat to make a hard and fast case for Zokora. I have never said that he is the best we can do. He doesn't have wonderful vision or the passing range of Hoddle. No question.
But most CM's in the prem also don't - including Carrick. Carricks passing range is barely better than Zokora's. I agree his vision (the game picture in his head) is marginally better than Zokora's but Zokora also has qualities that Carrick doesn't possess. He is harder to dispossess and gives the ball away less frequently. I liked Carrick alot, but he seemed to take a quantum leap in everybody's mind the second that ManU stumped up 18mil. He has been very avergae for Manu. Has not managed to establish himself as a cast iron regular and when starts is often subbed.

The fact is that Zokora had a pass completion rate of something like 89% (at the time) whilst making the 3rd highest amount of passes per minute (or something like that). He also had something like the 6/7th best tackles per min (approx). Which ever way you twist stats for a CM they were pretty good ones. And I always argued - from a long way ago (you may even remember)- that if we actually fixed our defense, people would realise that our midfield was actually the least of our problems. It seems Ramos thought the same (despite the so called "he thinks our whole midfield is shit" ITK bollocks) which is why he's dropped the keeper (something I wanted a season ago) and bought three new defenders.

We can definately improve on Zokora, but any improvement on Zokora (but it would have to be a top drawer player) will almost certainly be an improvement on Ohara and Tainio too.

But as far as your claim that Tainio & Ohara's simple passing is better I honestly believe you are wrong.
 

yanno

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Aug 1, 2003
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B-C - fair enough. :up:

It will be interesting to see how good O'Hara can become. For me, he's definitely best in that holding C/DM role, but whether he's good enough for a Top 4/6 EPL club is currently unknowable.

JJ has definitely played better in Zokora's absence at the ANC, so it will be interesting to see what happens for the rest of the season. As I said to Sloth, if Ramos can turn Zokora into a top-class C/DM, I'll be delighted.

As for this summer, like you I hope and expect us to get another CM in. My personal choice would be Lucho Gonzalez, but I'm sure we'll have plenty of competition if he does become available.
 

sloth

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Mar 7, 2005
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B-C I respect your opinion. However, in general, I think passing stats are highly misleading. Indeed, nearly all football statistics have to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. There are so many variables that they fail to take into account. In Zokora's case, I suspect the reason why he has a high completion rate will almost certainly be because of the lack of ambition and lack of range in his passing. I'm sure Ray Wilkins, in his square ball days, would have had a fantastic completion rate.

I know from watching a player like Carrick that he has "pictures in his head". In other words, he sees the pass long before he plays it, and this is what gives him the time to play confidently and effectively in very tight areas. I remember seeing Carrick as a young teenager playing for the U21s, and his outstanding passing ability was plain as day. Equally, from a season and a half of watching Zokora, I know that he doesn't have "pictures in his head", he doesn't see the pass early, so he often ends up just shuffling it on to the nearest player. And no statistical analysis is ever going to change my opinion on this.

Tainio plays with his head up, and has decent vision. I've seen him play a couple of reverse balls that Zokora won't make even if he plays till he's 98. And O'Hara also plays with his head up, is neat and tidy, and can see and deliver a long ball as well as anyone in the squad with the exception of Huddlestone.

B-C I'm sure you'll disagree with this. And as above, I respect your opinion. But mine is that Zokora will always be patchy and limited in his passing range, even if the stats show that he completes a lot of passes.

I tell you what Yanno, it's getting spooking how often BC and I agree on things these days, if it wasn't for his rating of Bent and an argument pre-season about the merits (and imo) lack thereof of signing Viduka, i'd be getting seriously worried that we're the same person, lol.

Anyway, my views, as you know, are the same as his on this. And like BC, I don't rely on stats but on watching the game to form my opinion. Thus I might say, I think Tainio is a good tackler but a poorer passer than DZ. If there's an argument however, where you claim DZ is in fact a very poor passer of the ball then I might look at the stats to see if this is so.

And what do I come up with?

DZ: 84% succesful passes
TT: 76% succesful passes

Then you might say (as you did), "ah, put Tainio keeps the ball moving", and I would say, but so does DZ and again we look at the stats...

DZ: 39.6 succesful passes per game
TT: 33.5 succesful passes per game

But TT's better in the tackle...

DZ: 81% tackle success
TT: 68% tackle success

Makes more tackles...

DZ: 3.12 tackles attempted a game
TT: 3.85 tackles attempted a game

None of which proves anything of course, but that statistics back up the evidence of my eyes. What they don't show is all the occasions DZ goes haring up the field and leaves the defence exposed, it doesn't show the times he fails to make the pass when it really matters, commits to the tackle when standing off would be better, stands off when he should commit and it doesn't show the superior effect TT often seems to have on the team when compared to DZ, how TT liberates JJ while DZ often seems to hobble him.

That's why I think that unless Ramos can get DZ playing a disciplined DM role there may not be a future for him at the club, but i also think that if Ramos can (and I fancy him to do it and more importantly I think he fancies that he can do it) get him to play that position well, we've a potentially World Class player on our hands.

It's also for this reason that I've consistently argued that the problem in the past has been as much in the coaching as with the individual players.

Anyway, time will tell.
 

yanno

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On the issue of Zokora v Tainio statistics, I'd like to know the time frame on those you quote.

Zokora has played a lot in CM, but has also played several times at the back under Ramos. Tainio has hardly played under Ramos, but has been used out of position at RB. Under Jol, TT was hardly ever played in CM. So, given this constant switching of positions, the statistics you quote are highly unlikely to be comparing one CM with another CM - which is the crux of this debate. In other words, I suspect those stats are fundamentally meaningless in this debate.

None of which proves anything of course, but that statistics back up the evidence of my eyes. What they don't show is all the occasions DZ goes haring up the field and leaves the defence exposed, it doesn't show the times he fails to make the pass when it really matters, and it doesn't show the superior effect TT often seems to have on the team when compared to DZ, how TT liberates JJ while DZ often seems to hobble him.

I'm assuming that the part of your quote I've highlighted is where you agree that Zokora's C/DM game has severe limitations. That's my case too. Now, Ramos can introduce "discipline" into Zoko's game by forbidding him from making those eyecatching but unproductive surging runs. But he can't coach him into regularly making "killer" passes on training ground.

All stats aside, Tainio's performance against Fabregas in CCSF2 was top class. He owned Fabregas, and enabled the rest of our midfield to play. If Zokora ever plays like that, he'll deserve his own special booth in the Spurs Hall of Fame.
 

sloth

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Mar 7, 2005
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On the issue of Zokora v Tainio statistics, I'd like to know the time frame on those you quote.

Zokora has played a lot in CM, but has also played several times at the back under Ramos. Tainio has hardly played under Ramos, but has been used out of position at RB. Under Jol, TT was hardly ever played in CM. So, given this constant switching of positions, the statistics you quote are highly unlikely to be comparing one CM with another CM - which is the crux of this debate. In other words, I suspect those stats are fundamentally meaningless in this debate.

I'm assuming that the part of your quote I've highlighted is where you agree that Zokora's C/DM game has severe limitations. That's my case too. Now, Ramos can introduce "discipline" into Zoko's game by forbidding him from making those eyecatching but unproductive surging runs. But he can't coach him into regularly making "killer" passes on training ground.

All stats aside, Tainio's performance against Fabregas in CCSF2 was top class. He owned Fabregas, and enabled the rest of our midfield to play. If Zokora ever plays like that, he'll deserve his own special booth in the Spurs Hall of Fame.
The stats applied to this season alone, one in which both have been asked to play a variety of unfamiliar positions.

The stats are not the bible, but they can support or contradict a previously held view.

They also don't give the full picture.

And I disagree with your claims about reading the game, keeping the ball moving and passing of the ball and whether you agree with stats or not, they can't make a mis-placed pass - placed, an un-made pass - made, an un-missed tackle - missed.

I could drag up plenty of statistics of other players from other teams whom we both agree to be pants and the statistics would show this to be so, equally i could show you the statistics of players we agree to be exceptional and they would also bear that out. In other words statistics don't tell the full story but nor do they out-right lie.

I do agree and make the same point myself that DZ has his limitations, i don't believe they are severe any more than I believed JJ's to be severe, I believe they're coachable and as with JJ I believe DZ has it in him to be world class. You disagree with this because you don't agree that he has the basic wherewithall, which is why we're having this debate :wink:

Finally, I think DZs had plenty such performances, this season particularly, but he'll have to live down his reputation for a while yet before people really begin to see him for what he is. This is in exactly the same way as JJ has had to and it really is remarkable how swift the switch comes when it comes.

My prediction: that by the end of the year we'll be salivating at the prospect of releasing JJ and DZ on next year's Premiership's midfields.
 

yanno

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Aug 1, 2003
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And I disagree with your claims about reading the game, keeping the ball moving and passing of the ball and whether you agree with stats or not, they can't make a mis-placed pass - placed, an un-made pass - made, an un-missed tackle - missed.

I could drag up plenty of statistics of other players from other teams whom we both agree to be pants and the statistics would show this to be so, equally i could show you the statistics of players we agree to be exceptional and they would also bear that out. In other words statistics don't tell the full story but nor do they out-right lie.

I can't agree.

Let's consider a Spurs legend, and a player with world class passing ability: Glenn Hoddle. His passing stats would depend partly on how well he personally was playing. But they would also depend on who he was playing with.

I remember one season when our strikers were the likes of Chris Jones and Gerry Armstrong: hard working, but limited players. Hoddle decided they weren't going to score lots of goals so he used them as a wall for 1-2s, and scored 19 goals in 41 league matches. The next season, our strikers were genuine goalscorers, Archibald and Crooks.

I'd love to see the difference in Hoddle's passing completion stats for those two seasons. I suspect his passing completion rate would have gone down, suggesting he was playing worse with Archibald and Crooks even though the team was more successful. And I say that because one of my abiding memories is of Archibald refusing to chase Hoddle through balls that he considered inaccurate, and turning and berating Hoddle. Those passes would presumably have been recorded as incomplete - or "misplaced" to use your terminology. And yet if Hoddle hadn't attempted those types of through balls, Archibald and Crooks wouldn't haven't scored nearly 50 goals between them that season.

Statistics are highly dangerous things. I've seen my industry pretty much destroyed by the misuse of statistics by management consultants. If a player keeps on misplacing simple passes, I can see that with my very own eyes, thankyouverymuch. If, on the other hand, they're attempting difficult passes which if they come off will result in a goalscoring chance, then I don't want them to stop making those passes just because their statistical "pass completion" rate will be pants.
 

Bus-Conductor

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Oct 19, 2004
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I can't agree.

Let's consider a Spurs legend, and a player with world class passing ability: Glenn Hoddle. His passing stats would depend partly on how well he personally was playing. But they would also depend on who he was playing with.

I remember one season when our strikers were the likes of Chris Jones and Gerry Armstrong: hard working, but limited players. Hoddle decided they weren't going to score lots of goals so he used them as a wall for 1-2s, and scored 19 goals in 41 league matches. The next season, our strikers were genuine goalscorers, Archibald and Crooks.

I'd love to see the difference in Hoddle's passing completion stats for those two seasons. I suspect his passing completion rate would have gone down, suggesting he was playing worse with Archibald and Crooks even though the team was more successful. And I say that because one of my abiding memories is of Archibald refusing to chase Hoddle through balls that he considered inaccurate, and turning and berating Hoddle. Those passes would presumably have been recorded as incomplete - or "misplaced" to use your terminology. And yet if Hoddle hadn't attempted those types of through balls, Archibald and Crooks wouldn't haven't scored nearly 50 goals between them that season.

Statistics are highly dangerous things. I've seen my industry pretty much destroyed by the misuse of statistics by management consultants. If a player keeps on misplacing simple passes, I can see that with my very own eyes, thankyouverymuch. If, on the other hand, they're attempting difficult passes which if they come off will result in a goalscoring chance, then I don't want them to stop making those passes just because their statistical "pass completion" rate will be pants.


Yanno, I hate to point out the glaringly obvious floor in your argument above but you actually aren't supplying any statistics that prove or disprove your theory here ?

If your perspective is that Tainio & Ohara are better short passers than Zokora now - which is clearly wrong - what's to say your perception of hoddles stats would be wrong 25 years ago.

Personally I was to busy enjoying the football we played back then to even consider stats. Somehow they didn't ever enter my head except occasionally in retrospect I wondered if anyone ever out possessed us ?
 

Stoof

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Must just say lads that this is a cracking read. Respectful to other people's opinions, well-thought out arguments.

Keep it coming. :up:
 

walworthyid

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Oct 25, 2004
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I elaborated in this thread:
http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=27074&page=7

Here's the core of it, comparing Tainio, O'Hara and Zokora as potential partners for JJ in CM:

It would be great if Ramos could turn Zokora into a top quality DM. But I have my doubts and examining the key skills of Tainio, O'Hara and Zokora, here's why:

i) passing ability - both Tainio and O'Hara are far superior short, quick passers of the ball to Zokora;

ii) reading of the game - both Tainio & O'Hara read the game much better than Zokora in a CM/DM position. After Ramos switched him, Zokora played very well as a spare or main CB, but it's easier to read the game and step out to break up play when you're playing in the back four. Tainio's display against Fabregas in the 2nd semi final was a masterclass in reading the game as a disciplined C/DM. I've never seen Zokora show anything like this ability when he's played in CM;

iii) speed and athleticism. Here Zokora is absolutely the winner. But as outstanding C/DMs like Carrick and Makelele have proven, speed of foot is far less important than speed of thought in the position. If you can read the game, you can be in the correct position to nick the ball or close down the opposition. Whereas I think Zokora's speed is far more useful when he plays in defence: it means we can play a high line, because he's not going to get beaten by the ball over the top, and it's the reason why he was so effective stepping up to break up play.

So, in short, the reason I believe Tainio and O'Hara are better bets for the C/DM position alongside JJ is because they're better short passers of the ball and superior readers of the game. And whilst I hold Juande in very high regard, I don't think passing and reading of the game can be coached on the training ground in a few weeks.

I am not sure that you are correct.

When the play is front of Zokora he reads the game pretty well. Also, his short passing is actually very good and at least as good as Tainio's (who I am a big fan of). His forward passing is inferior to O'Hara's and he is less creative than either TT or O'hara.

All round, when played in the right way, Zokora is a very effective player who's athleticism gives him a distinct edge over the others in a Ramos team.

I guess we willsee tonight but from memory when Zokora did not have to play at the back Ramos started him in midfield.
 

yanno

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Aug 1, 2003
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Yanno, I hate to point out the glaringly obvious floor in your argument above but you actually aren't supplying any statistics that prove or disprove your theory here ?

That's correct. I suppose my position on micro-statistical analysis is that it only works for Baseball. Steve McLaren allegedly bases his coaching and team selection on statistics. To me, that reeks of hiding behind a pseudo-science.

If your perspective is that Tainio & Ohara are better short passers than Zokora now - which is clearly wrong - what's to say your perception of hoddles stats would be wrong 25 years ago.

B-C - as I pointed out above, it is impossible to compare Zokora and Tainio's stats as CM players because neither of them have played there regularly this season. So, with respect, I don't think you can assert that I'm "wrong" with regard to their short passing ability.

Personally I was to busy enjoying the football we played back then to even consider stats. Somehow they didn't ever enter my head except occasionally in retrospect I wondered if anyone ever out possessed us ?

Absolutely. Stats are for Baseball.

But on the substantive issue - that a player's pass completion stats may vary not depending on how well he's playing, but on the type of ball he's trying to deliver (eg a simple ball into the feet of Gerry Armstrong or a difficult through ball to put Steve Archibald in), do you think I have a point?
 
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